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porina

PCIe 4.0 wont be supported on B450, X470 and older chipsets

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Pre-X570 boards will not support PCIe Gen 4. There's no guarantee that older motherboards can reliably run the more stringent signaling requirements of Gen4, and we simply cannot have a mix of "yes, no, maybe" in the market for all the older motherboards. The potential for confusion is too high. When final BIOSes are released for 3rd Gen Ryzen (AGESA 1000+), Gen4 will not be an option anymore. We wish we could've enabled this backwards, but the risk is too great.

Robert Hallock, Ryzen product manager

via https://www.anandtech.com/show/14477/amd-confirms-pcie-4-not-coming-to-older-motherboards

 

PCIe 4.0 now NOT coming to older motherboards. 

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19 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

I do agree that most people don't need the capabilities anyway but who knows when you need to add an extra m.2 SSD?

Well it's not like you actually notice the performance difference of an SSD off the CPU vs chipset either, you can see it in benchmark software though. But yea overall 400 would have to be a lot cheaper than 500 to not go for the new one.

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While not completely related, I figured I'd just post it here instead of making a new one or bumping one of the older threads.

A diagram of the X570 chipset just leaked:

Spoiler

AMD_X570_chipset_diagram_via_Chiphell.jp

Looks a bit similar to X470 but I haven't had the time to compare.

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This sounds a lot like lga1155, with the change from gen 2.0 to 3.0


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
5 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

A diagram of the X570 chipset just leaked:

Looks a bit similar to X470 but I haven't had the time to compare.

Not surprising but upgraded link to chipset, and upgraded lanes from chipset... no change on either of the M.2s so does that mean it is essentially still at 3.0?


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Just now, porina said:

Not surprising but upgraded link to chipset, and upgraded lanes from chipset... no change on either of the M.2s so does that mean it is essentially still at 3.0?

Well the available bandwidth is doubled overall.....so I'd say no.


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We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
6 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Well the available bandwidth is doubled overall.....so I'd say no.

Where's the increased bandwidth? In case of any confusion, I was talking specifically about M.2. Both the M.2 sockets (one CPU, one chipset) are indicated in that chart as 32GB/s. That's the same as 3.0 x4 hence my question, are the M.2 running at 3.0? The alternative is 4.0 x2 but that makes no sense for most existing devices.


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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600

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I see the extra m.2 from chipset in the diagram, and wi-fi/bt stuff .. not sure if it's wireless integrated in chipset or just a link (pci-e/usb/whatever) to wireless chip.

 

Don't get what consumes so much power that makes chipset need active cooling.

Not sure what process they use, i suspect it's 28nm or higher... I think the previous chipsets were 45-55nm made at TSMC.

Probably could have been passively cooled if done at 12-14nm but then chipsets would cost too much

 

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36 minutes ago, mariushm said:

I see the extra m.2 from chipset in the diagram, and wi-fi/bt stuff .. not sure if it's wireless integrated in chipset or just a link (pci-e/usb/whatever) to wireless chip.

 

Don't get what consumes so much power that makes chipset need active cooling.

Not sure what process they use, i suspect it's 28nm or higher... I think the previous chipsets were 45-55nm made at TSMC.

Probably could have been passively cooled if done at 12-14nm but then chipsets would cost too much

 

Multiple NVMe drives will allegedly cause the power to spike if you do simultaneous writes. At least that's what I assume from the talks on the subject. Doesn't seem too farfetched to me but it also seems like a problem 99% of people won't experience.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
43 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Don't get what consumes so much power that makes chipset need active cooling.

Assuming all else is equal apart from the bandwidth, then more data transfer = more power used. I don't know if 4.0 has any features to save power per bit compared to 3.0... if it is just same but faster, then it'll be hotter.


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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

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7 hours ago, porina said:

Where's the increased bandwidth? In case of any confusion, I was talking specifically about M.2. Both the M.2 sockets (one CPU, one chipset) are indicated in that chart as 32GB/s. That's the same as 3.0 x4 hence my question, are the M.2 running at 3.0? The alternative is 4.0 x2 but that makes no sense for most existing devices.

When the PCIe 4x slot and x1 slots are Gen 4.0....then the m.2 will be as well.


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

When the PCIe 4x slot and x1 slots are Gen 4.0....then the m.2 will be as well.

There is no indication of that. The chart shows 32GB/s which is equivalent to 3.0 x4 and that's the only scenario that makes sense. If it was 4.0 x4 why not 64GB/s?


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Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance LPX RGB 3000 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, Corsair 600C, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600

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3 minutes ago, porina said:

There is no indication of that. The chart shows 32GB/s which is equivalent to 3.0 x4 and that's the only scenario that makes sense. If it was 4.0 x4 why not 64GB/s?

 

7 hours ago, Trixanity said:

While not completely related, I figured I'd just post it here instead of making a new one or bumping one of the older threads.

A diagram of the X570 chipset just leaked:

  Reveal hidden contents

AMD_X570_chipset_diagram_via_Chiphell.jp

Looks a bit similar to X470 but I haven't had the time to compare.

 


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
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Posted · Original PosterOP

@Dabombinable Ok, I messed up the units, should have written 32Gbps not 32GB/s which is a factor of 8 wrong. That aside, my point remains, 32Gbps is most logically 3.0 x4. It should say 64Gbps if it were 4.0 x4.


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Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance LPX RGB 3000 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, Corsair 600C, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

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24 minutes ago, porina said:

@Dabombinable Ok, I messed up the units, should have written 32Gbps not 32GB/s which is a factor of 8 wrong. That aside, my point remains, 32Gbps is most logically 3.0 x4. It should say 64Gbps if it were 4.0 x4.

Either way, its 4GB/sec for each of the m.2 connectors (far better than what we currently have). With 1 taking up the lanes from the x4 slot. The main thing is that the link between the CPU and PCU has double the bandwidth, so we'd potentially be seeing better NVME SSD speeds.


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
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2 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

ts 4GB/sec for each of the m.2 connectors (far better than what we currently have).

We currently have 32GB/s on M.2 connectors. Some of us are running boards from 2016 that have it.


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48 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

We currently have 32GB/s on M.2 connectors. Some of us are running boards from 2016 that have it.

You're confusing bits and bytes. You're describing x16 4.0 and I don't think you have that.

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1 minute ago, Trixanity said:

You're confusing bits and bytes. You're describing x16 4.0 and I don't think you have that.

No, I was typing that whilst in the middle of updating back to Corsair iCUE and didn't proofread.


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Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

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17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

No, I was typing that whilst in the middle of updating back to Corsair iCUE and didn't proofread.

X470 is quite limited in the drive configurations though which I think was what was referenced.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 hour ago, Trixanity said:

You're confusing bits and bytes. You're describing x16 4.0 and I don't think you have that.

It's the same mistake I made. Bits, bytes...


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Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance LPX RGB 3000 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, Corsair 600C, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 3600, Noctua D9L, Corsair Vengeance LPX RGB 3000 2x4GB, EVGA GTX 970, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, Crucial MX300 525GB, Acer RT280K

VR rig: Asus Z170I Pro Gaming, i7-6600k stock, Silverstone TD03-E, Kingston Hyper-X 2666 2x8GB, Zotac 1070 FE, Corsair CX450M, Silverstone SG13, Samsung PM951 256GB, HTC Vive

Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600

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source: reddit post (above)

Swedish source: https://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/27653-amd-klipper-pci-express-4-0-stod-for-aldre-moderkort-i-400-och-300-serien

via: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14477/amd-confirms-pcie-4-not-coming-to-older-motherboards

 

Quote

AMD Technical Marketing /u/AMD_Robert:

There's no guarantee that older motherboards can reliably run the more stringent signaling requirements of Gen4, and we simply cannot have a mix of "yes, no, maybe" in the market for all the older motherboards. The potential for confusion is too high.

dang. not even the first slot ,_, maybe the expectations were a bit too high on getting some of them to run?

 

Quote

Anandtech:

Before the launch of Ryzen 3000, many users (ourselves included) had speculated about PCIe 4.0 support on older motherboards, such as X470, X370, and the cheaper chipset variations. For those users who had bought into this market with a nice expensive motherboard, it was expected that these models were designed rigorously enough to also support PCIe 4.0. We have even seen some GIGABYTE motherboards already provide the option in the BIOS to support PCIe 4.0. However, AMD has nixed that idea, and those BIOS options will be reversed.

(...)

To be honest, there are two ways to take this news. Sure, it’s a kick in the craw for anyone who invested in a high-end X370 or X470 motherboard. However the flip side of this is that there are not going to be many PCIe 4.0 devices on the market through 2019. We will see AMD’s Navi GPUs which are expected to replace the Polaris mid-range product stack, so if you already have a high-end GPU, it’s not going to bother you too much. For the PCIe 4.0 SSDs, we expect a couple of them to launch but these are the Phison E16 designs which run at 8W TDP and will likely command a high premium with an 8W TDP too – it might be best to wait until 2020 when dedicated PCIe 4.0 controllers come to the market.

kinda wonder if there'd be BIOS modders who would be able to undo that limitation to test PCIe connection compatibility/quality on at least a few higher end boards o_o

on a separate note, with AM4 being supported "though 2020" (possibly one more generation before DDR5 and new socket), buying a new board just for PCIe 4.0 shouldn't be the only factor if not many other parts in the system can saturate the 4.0 bus (or if the speeds aren't required or discernible). if PCIe 5.0 comes on AM5(? in 2021?) I'd say the two-year frame of PCIe 4.0 isn't worth upgrading to (imagine having to buy hardware to justify the connection, lol)

 

(of course, get the newer boards for higher power draw CPUs)

 

Quote

Anandtech:

I’ll be honest, it does make our job a bit easier. I contemplated having a news post where we kept track of all the 300-series and 400-series motherboards that support PCIe 4.0, but that suddenly got a lot simpler: if you want PCIe 4.0 on AMD in 2019, get a 500-series motherboard.

welp

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It's probably for the better, anyways: AM4 has enough PCI-E issues to begin with.


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15 minutes ago, Daniel Z. said:

I think the amount of people that will be affected by this is basically 0. I don’t know of a single GPU that can fully saturate a PCIe 3.0 16x connection. I’m pretty sure even 4x is enough.

Faster storage? Multiple drives in one PCI-E slot?


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