Intel processors not looking so brilliant anymore. Plus AMD's debt problems get better with each passing quarter

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

You better got somthing good to back up the claim as the whole HWbot data base would back up my claim.

https://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i7_7700k/

https://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i7_7740x/

 

32MHz, what an improvement!

 

/s

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Yeah I had one of them before to play around with, why Intel did not give it quad channel ram or a bump in PCIe lanes made no since at all.

Still running at 7640x at about 6ghz was cool.

Unless you were running sub-ambient cooling going above 5.7Ghz is impossible.

 

Plus I have to wonder what applications you think are so single threaded a 2 core CPU, even 1GHz higher clocks, would be so much better.

[Drak3]

Just now, leadeater said:

Plus I have to wonder what applications you think are so single threaded a 2 core CPU, even 1GHz higher clocks, would be so much better.

Anything Adobe.

 

1 minute ago, Mr. horse said:

your comparing two different CPUs on two diffident platforms.

The 7700K and 7740X are literally the same chips on different substrates.

 

3 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

And ware did you get the 32mhz improvement?

Best clocks of air and water.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Anything Adobe.

Adobe may be horrible but it still uses more than 2 cores, enough so a 4 core would out pace it at such a clock deficit. Only thing that would be able so save a 2 core CPU from defeat such as that would be Intel QuickSync, but then the 4 core would likely have that too anyway.

[Nowak]

3 hours ago, maartendc said:

I beg to differ. I had a 6600, non K, and it held me back significantly in games. (Battlefield V in 64 player MP). A 6600 is a 4-core, 4-thread CPU. That just doesnt cut it anymore these days I'm afraid. If we were talking 6700K, maybe. The Hyperthreading helps a bit. But 4 threads... really getting long in the tooth.

 

Went to a Ryzen 2700X, best money I ever spent.

If you had lighter computing needs, a 4c4t CPU would still be perfectly adequate.

[leadeater]

Just now, Mr. horse said:

Winter does happen in most places. Put your PC by a window and run a external rad right out side the window. No one seems to think of this.

Because that is so realistic and usable right? I mean I did used to have my PC on the other side of a wall that was in an un-insulated garage so in winter it ran real, real cold, which it did not like that much long term. I know that because I ran it this way for years and if it got turned off the only way it would start again was to get out a heat gun and warm it up.

 

3 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Insert any older single threaded game with tons of mods.

Try playing viking conquest with really big battle size? Its more or less a single threaded game (technical dual threaded) that needs a lot of CPU power. Any wareband game over 200v200 battle needs a crazy fast single threaded CPU performance.

I play a lot of older/classic games too, now show me a 2 core CPU that clocks as much higher than a 4 core that you think is possible. The VRM isn't the limiting factor, CPUs can only clock so high at given temperatures no matter the vcore. GPUs are the same, in fact Kingpin GPUs come with this information sheet so you know what temperatures are required to get certain clocks.

 

Freezing the hell out of your CPU is the only way to raise clocks and it works just as well on 4 cores, 6 cores and 8 cores. der8auer got 7.56Ghz on a 7740X using LHe and 7.6Ghz on a 9900k using LHe, twice the cores same clocks.

[XenosTech]

9 hours ago, leadeater said:

Absolutely not, these researchers were specifically looking in to such vulnerabilities continuing existing research that found spectre and meltdown. None of this was 'by chance'. I don't by chance find my car in the driveway when I go out to drive it, I mean it might not be there if someone stole it but I wouldn't by chance discover that either.

Did anyone immortalize that as a meme? Gosh that was golden

2 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

why do you think so many people disable cores when pushing a CPU to the max

All cores aren't equal on the same die, that's pretty obvious. Your maximum overclock is determined by the weakest core hence why people would disable certain cores to hit a higher frequency.

 

4 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Umm you know they make this thing called antifreeze?

What does that have to do with a cold bug?

 

5 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

It is.

No it isn't.

 

5 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Its relay no different then putting an external rad on the other side of the desk.

It's quiet different cause the rad would be releasing the heat into your room in one case and the other it just goes into the atmosphere.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Umm you know they make this thing called antifreeze?

Doesn't help when it's an air cooler and the reason it won't is condensation on the motherboard tripping protection. This was before water cooling was really a thing.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

It is. Its relay no different then putting an external rad on the other side of the desk.

If you have a window ledge that works for this, if you are using custom loop cooling, if you have tubes long enough, if you want to suffer a freezing cold room. No way is it realistic beyond setting a one off OC.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

I was never referring to an off the self CPU but a purpose bould CPU for single threaded speed.

Nothing would change, freezing the CPU is the only way. You can't design around that. You can develop a better fab node that allows higher clocks but that applies to any core count, everything improves equally with it.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

But even then why do you think so many people disable cores when pushing a CPU to the max, its partly because the drop in cores lowers heat and power draw.

That can help yes, the LHe OC 7740X and 9900k were done using all cores and there isn't an OC higher than this with or without all cores. For H2O that isn't chilled turning off cores doesn't lower the heat to a point you can achieve higher clocks, the thermal point where high clocks are possible is very low.

 

Making a 2 core CPU that can clock higher because of that is just a myth/fable, it's always been a heat issue and that of needing to be very cold which put it firmly in the the impractical category. I class phase change as impractical btw, is damn loud.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, XenosTech said:

Did anyone immortalize that as a meme? Gosh that was golden

Dude, where's my car?

[XenosTech]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Dude, where's my car?

Probably parked somewhere between my shoulder blade and spine q.q

[leadeater]

50 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Anyway here are two of many result on HWbot that show that a better board will alow for better overlooking.

Best OC 7820X on ROG Rampage VI Apex

Best OC of a 7820x on a mid rang X299 Taichi

That is a difference of 728.52mhz.

 

 

Think I know where the 730Mhz difference is coming from.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

I disagree. Will it s lest practical or then having the rad inside the case. it is very realistic and doable.

You'd have to block up the opening in the Window, I don't think playing games at freezing point is that fun.

 

8 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Then what was the need? Most systems before then did not need more cooling. wather cooling ahs been around since Athlon PX days.

Even then you must of been doing something wrong there should not have been a condensation problem.

It was placed there for noise, it had a 14 bay external SCSI disk shelf attached to it. Plus the case fans weren't that quite either since they were re-purposed Delta Comair Rotron fans off an old Sun Spark system.

 

Condensation is also an issue when you're generating heat when the ambient is cold. The problem is actually dust + condensation, but to keep a long story short heat gun was required to start it. I ran it 24/7 so the only time it was off was maintenance or power cut.

[Drak3]

46 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Not quite. But they are very similar, the base clock and TDP it not the same. 

You do realise base clock and TDP is literally just a setting and the result of said setting.

 

The 7700, 7700K, and 7740X are literally the same exact silicon with slightly different settings.

[SenKa]

10 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

 

Does it "feel" low end. Its still a pretty darn capable CPU

Depends on what he needs. For me, a 6600k is unusable because I need 8 cores at the minimum

 

For gaming? Its a fine chip, not that much slower than any of its successors due to how old Intels 14nm process is.

[Drak3]

Just now, Mr. horse said:

The 7740X has a different package with can affect OCing.

The 7740X is literally a factory "oc'd" 7700K on a LGA2066 substrate.

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Witch is not hard at all to do. Its rather simple child's play for anyone that is remotely good with home improvement tacks or has installed a potable AC that is not a window mount but still needs outside air.

But that doesn't make it practical though, simple/remedial and practicality are quite different things. All forms of cooling that brings the temperatures down low enough to net an increase in clocks is just impractical. The most practical way is of course phase change, which is expensive and loud but it is the most practical none the less.

 

If you can't run it every day, any time, any season then how is it practical? Most people want to turn the PC on and play games, not load OC profiles based on the temperature of the day.

 

But my main point still stands, a 2 core CPU will not net you want you think it will. With the required temperatures the same is achieved on most other core counts until you started exceeding 10 cores. 

 

8 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Anyway. we are getting rather off topic here. Maybe we should get back on topic ?

Fair enough.

[maartendc]

3 hours ago, Nowak said:

If you had lighter computing needs, a 4c4t CPU would still be perfectly adequate.

What kind of logic is that? If I had even lighter computer needs, a Pentium II would still be perfectly adequate...

 

The previous person was commenting that a "ryzen CPU is a futile upgrade over a 6600K", which it most certainly is not.

4C/4T to 8C/16T a futile upgrade?! There are many, many workloads where that is a worthwhile upgrade.

[NumLock21]

All these vulnerabilities found on Intel CPUs, are they doing anything about it by releasing patches or just listing them without doing anything about it. The only patch for my cpu is meltdown, spectre, and some beta bios for my board. Anything after, they don't seem to give a rats a55 about what vulnerabilities Intel CPUs are having. 

 

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, maartendc said:

What kind of logic is that? If I had even lighter computer needs, a Pentium II would still be perfectly adequate...

 

The previous person was commenting that a "ryzen CPU is a futile upgrade over a 6600K", which it most certainly is not.

4C/4T to 8C/16T a futile upgrade?! There are many, many workloads where that is a worthwhile upgrade.

What I mean is, if your needs are email and Facebook, a quad core CPU with no HyperThreading is fine. There still is a market for these CPUs!

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Nowak said:

What I mean is, if your needs are email and Facebook, a quad core CPU with no HyperThreading is fine. There still is a market for these CPUs!

My quad core no HT is perfectly fine for 1080p gaming.  I have it paired to a 570 and don't really feel I am missing out on something. I am certainly not a high end user but am far from the average user.

[Stefan Payne]

16 hours ago, Arika S said:

Keep in mind that AMDs currentl products haven't been around long in the grand scheme of things, there is a very real possibility that AMD could be affected by vulnerabilities not yet discovered where the "mitigations" could lead to similar performance drops. it would be irresponsible to think that Intel are the only ones with issues.

If that was the case, we would know about it by now and RYZENFALL would never have happened.

AMD says themselves that they have Access Checks inside the CPU to prevent these things. So its entirely possible that someone at AMD knew about this attacks and preventatively implemented protections in case someone found that....

 

I really don't get why people still try to claim "but but AMD!!11", when there are no sings of that at the moment, on the contrary, after Ryzenfall it seems that that was the best those people could find...

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

If that was the case, we would know about it by now and RYZENFALL would never have happened.

AMD says themselves that they have Access Checks inside the CPU to prevent these things. So its entirely possible that someone at AMD knew about this attacks and preventatively implemented protections in case someone found that....

 

I really don't get why people still try to claim "but but AMD!!11", when there are no sings of that at the moment, on the contrary, after Ryzenfall it seems that that was the best those people could find...

They're not saying "but but AMD" because they want to highlight AMD,  They're pointing to AMD because they are countering the naive claims that AMD are immune to exploits.  No hardware is immune to the discovery of exploits.   All hardware will have a weak point somewhere, the only difference in the last few cases is that the Intel ones have been found.

 

 

[D13H4RD]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They're not saying "but but AMD" because they want to highlight AMD,  They're pointing to AMD because they are countering the naive claims that AMD are immune to exploits.  No hardware is immune to the discovery of exploits.   All hardware will have a weak point somewhere, the only difference in the last few cases is that the Intel ones have been found.

I won't be surprised if there is some form of exploit found in the Zen architecture, though I don't think it'll be as serious, assuming the architecture itself is designed to mitigate these kinds of exploits. 

 

But nothing is perfect and no matter how hard you try, there'll always be a hole. 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

But nothing is perfect and no matter how hard you try, there'll always be a hole. 

That's the crux of the issue.  having one part of the CPU that has been carefully planned to avoid a specific attack doesn't mean other parts don't have unknown vulnerabilities.

[MadmanRB]

So turns out buying AMD isnt so bad after all
 
Sure only time will tell if something else comes along and hits AMD to this level is up in the air for now but I will take this as a minor blessing for now.