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Zombieload Saga - New Intel Architecture security flaws, worse than Spectre/Meltdown

rcmaehl
By rcmaehl
in Tech News
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Posted

I just noticed that Digital Ocean sent me an email about this.

 

I'll post it here for those interested.

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, pas008 said:

So you saying that they can fix it on 2way but not 4 way?

 

? Intel's HT is software based except for the experiment that was Knight's Landing. They haven't used hardware based SMT before or since to my knowledge.

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20 hours ago, TheDankKoosh said:

Eh, I just tend to ignore these since I never put my computer into situations where these vulnerabilities could be exploited in the first place. I've already disabled the spectre and meltdown patches cause I don't want gimped performance.

How did you post this on the forum then? I'm pretty sure you need to be connected to the internet which would make your computer vulnerable. So good luck with avoiding massive security updates

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

With all this Spectre/Meltdown

 

The risks for consumers were minimal because an attacker had already compromised the PC before he could use these two bugs. He already had enough control so he didn´t even need it.

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Posted
2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Wait, 4 way SMT as in 4 threads per 1 physical core? Interesting, haven't heard that one in any rumor about Zen3...

4 way smt was one of the main things talked about in a video by "Moores law is dead" and later on adoredtv also confirmed hearing about it, the video is called:

AMD Zen 3 Early Whispers: Another Huge Upgrade!

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50 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

4 way smt was one of the main things talked about in a video by "Moores law is dead" and later on adoredtv also confirmed hearing about it, the video is called:

AMD Zen 3 Early Whispers: Another Huge Upgrade!

At this point still very much a rumor however. It would make sense though as it would allow for a distinct edge over Intel.

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Posted

we made a decision at work to disable hyper threading on everything. every user laptop/desktop, every server, etc.

Really sucks.... but security

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"There is nothing more difficult than fixing something that isn't all the way broken yet." - Author Unknown

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1 hour ago, ravenshrike said:

At this point still very much a rumor however. It would make sense though as it would allow for a distinct edge over Intel.

they might have complete edge with this too

if ryzen 3000 clocks just as high

they could have both single and multi especially with the newer ipc improvements too

more cores of course

and amd does seem to have just as good  if not better smt, which showing its more secure for now also

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Posted
3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

How did you post this on the forum then? I'm pretty sure you need to be connected to the internet which would make your computer vulnerable. So good luck with avoiding massive security updates

I think what he means is that due to the type of exploit and the way he uses his PC,  the chances of irreversible damage occurring are so low they don't outweigh the performance difference in enable the mitigations.   I don't think he is saying he is immune because he's not on the net, he might only visit 3 sites and have nothing crucial beyond his steam account on his PC.  

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Posted
5 hours ago, BuckGup said:

How did you post this on the forum then? I'm pretty sure you need to be connected to the internet which would make your computer vulnerable. So good luck with avoiding massive security updates

If you protect yourself satisfactorily on your end of the net, then the chance of successful attack is next to 0.

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I think what he means is that due to the type of exploit and the way he uses his PC,  the chances of irreversible damage occurring are so low they don't outweigh the performance difference in enable the mitigations.   I don't think he is saying he is immune because he's not on the net, he might only visit 3 sites and have nothing crucial beyond his steam account on his PC.  

For the most part this is correct for me, can't say the same for everyone.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, TheDankKoosh said:

If you protect yourself satisfactorily on your end of the net, then the chance of successful attack is next to 0.

For the most part this is correct for me, can't say the same for everyone.

Remember wannacry? All you needed was a windows PC on the internet without the latest updates 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
  • Author
3 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

Man, Intel CPUs are just...

(wait for it...)

 

RIDL'd with security holes!

 

(I'll show myself out)

Pack it up boys, there's a new pun master in town

PLEASE QUOTE ME IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME

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Retro Build: Intel Pentium III @ 500 MHz, Dell Optiplex G1 Full AT Tower, 768MB SDRAM @ 133MHz, Integrated Graphics, Generic 1024x768 60Hz Monitor


 

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48 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Remember wannacry? All you needed was a windows PC on the internet without the latest updates 

Not having the latest updates is the opposite of satisfactory protection at the user end.

 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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12 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

With all this Spectre/Meltdown stuff popping up every other month and showing new, worse Vulnerabilitys, why are people still buying Intel CPUs??
Especially if there are viable alternatives??

 

Makes no sense...

 

And with all that stuff going on, isn't it almost bad enough for a recall??

No... not bad enough when it can be patched by a software or you just disable Hyperthreading/SMT. Maybe if Intel's CPU is burned when running and there's a design flaw that is very dangerous that it's a threat to humanity, then recall is a possibility. TBH, recall is impossible, it's just too many considering it is affected almost every Intel's CPU product and how are you going recall a cpu glued on the laptop's motherboard.

 

Also, most people don't really care about this (either never knew about this or just give a s**t about it and YOLO).

 

If you watch Awesome Hardware livestream recently, Kyle and Paul make a poll on how people react to these vulnabilities, most of them agree to move on and hope they don't get attack.

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52 minutes ago, JustWantTech said:

Also, most people don't really care about this

Wanna bet they would if it was mostly on the other side??

 

Like the TLB Bug in Zambezi Bulldozer.

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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I think some common sense needs to be applied to all of this.

Most people have a Computer running behind a router on NAT and hopefully you DO NOT use DMZ on the Router exposing a LAN machine completely to the internet.

 

Keep your Browser updated this is likely a primary attack vector.

Anything that is Port Forwarded and exposed on your machine to the internet keep that updated and check if that software has been patched from those vulnerabilities.

It is good Practice to ACL those Port Forwards to something like a VPN Server to allow and then VPN to that server to access your Port Forward than just blindly opening it to the internet.

 

Bottom Line is if you are not setting up Port Forwards to a machine then there is no direct access to a LAN Machine on the Internet.

It's all about your LAN machine's software establishing connections out, keep an eye on what you do and what connections you are making out.

Also worth noting UPNP or NAT-PMP having this turned on within your router lets any Application to call for a Port Forward to be setup.

This might make life easier but it also means if Malware got onto your Machine the Malware can ask for port 7777 for example to be forwarded to the Malware on that machine.

Next time someone who owns that type of Malware goes around scanning machines for port 7777 and your machine response they can use your machine to attack other people or do other nasty things with your information.

 

People can still easily get Malware installed on their machines by downloading files, so just like anything else these User Error can cause most of your security problems.

 

Glasswire is good to use on Windows if you want to see what traffic is going where for what Applications.

Regardless of what new Vulnerability is out publicly there are likely 1000's yet to be discovered, be vigilant all the time and you will not have problems. 

 

Never use DMZ's always look up the software of what needs to be forwarded exactly on ports. Otherwise your are exposing everything on that machine to the internet and many attack vectors.

Never user UPNP or NAT-PMP yes it is convenient, but its better to look up what you need lets say Torrents lookup what ports you need to forward manually yourself and do it in the Router yourself.

At least then you have given that Application permission you don't want everything in your house mapping ports on your WAN IP Address to that Device.

 

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while most of these vulnerabilities will never affect normal users in a real way, its still amusing the endless hits intel has been taking on this front lately

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On 5/14/2019 at 10:13 PM, maartendc said:

YIKES. I don't know if I WANT to "mitigate" this vulnerability now. Way to go Intel. Apparently Hyperthreading is completely UNSAFE now.

Yes, it is - but if you're a regular user browser mitigations are enough. If you're running a cloud service a user might run malicious code on their VM intentionally and gain access to more than they should be allowed to - but if you're the only user on your machine and you don't run shady software you'll probably be fine.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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Intel has released a statement saying they are releasing Microcode updates (MCU) to solve the issue on existing CPUs, hardware fixes on new CPUs, and also included performance graphs showing minimal performance loss with the fix applied [according to Intel].

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/mds.html


 

Quote

Overview

On May 14, 2019, Intel and other industry partners shared details and information about a new group of vulnerabilities collectively called Microarchitectural Data Sampling (MDS).

First identified by Intel’s internal researchers and partners, and independently reported to Intel by external researchers, MDS is a sub-class of previously disclosed speculative execution side channel vulnerabilities and is comprised of four related techniques. Under certain conditions, MDS provides a program the potential means to read data that program otherwise would not be able to see. MDS techniques are based on a sampling of data leaked from small structures within the CPU using a locally executed speculative execution side channel. Practical exploitation of MDS is a very complex undertaking. MDS does not, by itself, provide an attacker with a way to choose the data that is leaked.

MDS is addressed in hardware starting with select 8th and 9th Generation Intel® Core™ processors, as well as the 2nd Generation Intel® Xeon® Scalable processor family. More details can be found here. We expect all future Intel® processors include hardware mitigations addressing these vulnerabilities.


 

Quote

Mitigation

For products where MDS is not addressed in hardware, Intel is releasing processor microcode updates (MCU) as part of our regular update process with OEMs. These are coupled with corresponding updates to operating system and hypervisor software.

When these mitigations are enabled, minimal performance impacts are expected for the majority of PC client application based benchmarks. Performance or resource utilization on some data center workloads may be affected and may vary accordingly.

Once these updates are applied, it may be appropriate for some customers to consider additional steps. This includes customers who cannot guarantee that trusted software is running on their system(s) and are using Simultaneous Multi-Threading (SMT). In these cases, customers should consider how they utilize SMT for their particular workload(s), guidance from their OS and VMM software providers, and the security threat model for their particular environment. Because these factors will vary considerably by customer, Intel is not recommending that Intel® HT be disabled, and it’s important to understand that doing so does not alone provide protection against MDS.


Key Points

  • "MDS is addressed in hardware starting with select 8th and 9th Generation Intel® Core™ processors, as well as the 2nd Generation Intel® Xeon® Scalable processor family."
  • "For products where MDS is not addressed in hardware, Intel is releasing processor microcode updates (MCU)"
  • "minimal performance impacts are expected for the majority of PC client application based benchmarks"
  • "Intel is not recommending that Intel® HT be disabled"
  • "it’s important to understand that [disabling HyperThreading] does not alone provide protection against MDS."
     

Performance Graphs Pre/Post Mitigation applied:

Quote

Limited Performance Impact for the Majority of PC Clients

image.thumb.png.70c9a27edaaa562a1482cfc0f9b3bdb3.png


 

Quote

Performance Impacts on Select Data Center Workloads

image.thumb.png.80cad5440c8e70cbf5f94469ea485e92.png


Additional performance graphs shown in the article.


The graphs look awfully optimistic. It's important to note that the tests were performed by Intel themselves and not an independent third party.

Spoiler
Quote

Client Configuration - Intel® Core™ i9-9900K

  • Processor: Intel® Core™ i9-9900K
  • Memory: 2x16GB
  • Storage: Intel® 760p 512GB SSD NVMe*
  • Display Resolution: 1920x1080
  • OS: Windows 10*, version 1809
  • Graphics: Intel® HD Graphics 630
  • Date Tested: May 7, 2019
  • Tested By: Intel Corporation. Note: All the Client measurements used the same SKUs. For MDS impact, changed only microcode and OS for various configurations
  • SPEC benchmark results based on Intel internal measurements; ratios provided as research usage

 

 

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Heh, after all these patches latest Intel CPU's don't really have any edge over AMD other than just raw higher clock...

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Heh, after all these patches latest Intel CPU's don't really have any edge over AMD other than just raw higher clock...

Before all these patches the latest Intel CPUs didn't really have any edge over AMD than clockspeed.

 

Ignoring AVX.

Edited by Drak3

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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On one hand this sucks.  My system is around 4 years old now.  There were no decent AMD CPUs back then, so Haswell-E was the best option for me really.  If it weren't for having massive overclocking headroom, I'd probably be royally effed and looking into Ryzen right now.

 

On the other hand, how likely are we to see this in the wild?  So far there have been precisely zero reports of exploits that leverage the Spectre or Meltdown vulnerabilities, which is why quite a few people have disabled those patches to regain the lost performance. 

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I’ve been using AMD since my first build, and I don’t plan switching.

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1 hour ago, Captain Chaos said:

On one hand this sucks.  My system is around 4 years old now.  There were no decent AMD CPUs back then, so Haswell-E was the best option for me really.  If it weren't for having massive overclocking headroom, I'd probably be royally effed and looking into Ryzen right now.

 

On the other hand, how likely are we to see this in the wild?  So far there have been precisely zero reports of exploits that leverage the Spectre or Meltdown vulnerabilities, which is why quite a few people have disabled those patches to regain the lost performance. 

No worse than where I'm at. While Skylake wasn't a major improvement over Haswell, had I waited a bit, at the very minimum, I'd have DDR4 to carry over. Will probably drop in a 4790K at some point in the near future though.

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

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