Raja: AMD cannot compete

[LAwLz]

5 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

All lines of code are not created equal.

True, but I was trying to make a point that if two companies does the exact same thing, both get the same amount of credit from me. I don't go "wow what Intel did was great, but I'll give AMD more praise for this thing that does the same thing but slightly worse, because I apply a x10 multiplier to my praise for AMD!".

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Again, I am not criticizing AMD. I have never said AMD does a poor job.

You seem to think that anyone who isn't sucking AMD's dick is against them. It's not critique to point out that statements such as "AMD contributes more to open source than Intel" is incorrect.

 

Just to add, it's not even an issue being open source.   There are plenty of open source standards that are hugely successful and popular. 

[RejZoR]

I used to like Raja. Now I see he's a massive dick.

[Arika]

13 hours ago, LAwLz said:

You seem to think that anyone who isn't sucking AMD's dick is against them

I think James said it best in the Roast video. AMD fans seem to have a bit of a persecution complex.

 

Its surprising to see how controversial AMD has become in the last few years. Its especially noticeable on the forums. If a thread about Intel or nvidia is posted, there will always be people pushing AMD into it regardless of the content or context of the conversation, like they don't want AMD to be forgotten despite how well ryzen has been doing.

 

With Intel coming into the game with GPUs they will likely be the ones to give NVidia a run for their money, Nothing against AMD (huge emphasis on this before I get more angry rants against me) AMD doesn't have the money to split between their current CPUs and then potential GPUs capable of taking on the top end of NVidia at the moment which is the only reason I can imagine they are focusng on the mid to low end 

[WereCat]

9 minutes ago, Arika S said:

I think James said it best in the Roast video. AMD fans seem to have a bit of a persecution complex.

 

Its surprising to see how controversial AMD has become in the last few years. Its especially noticeable on the forums. If a thread about Intel or nvidia is posted, there will always be people pushing AMD into it regardless of the content or context of the conversation, like they don't want AMD to be forgotten despite how well ryzen has been doing.

 

With Intel coming into the game with GPUs they will likely be the ones to give NVidia a run for their money, Nothing against AMD (huge emphasis on this before I get more angry rants against me) AMD doesn't have the money to split between their current CPUs and then potentialn GPUs capable of taking on the top end of NVidia at the moment which is the only reason I can imagine they are focusng on the mid to low end 

It because people can see that AMD is trying and they want them to be a good choice.

Its like people in One Punch Man cheering for Mumen Raider vs Deep Sea King.

[Arika]

Just now, WereCat said:

It because people can see that AMD is trying and they want them to be a good choice.

Which is fine. Most people want that, their reasons for it might be different but i'm pretty sure everyone is on the same page.

[GoldenLag]

13 minutes ago, WereCat said:

Its like people in One Punch Man cheering for Mumen Raider vs Deep Sea King.

except its Mumen Rider vs Deep Sea King and Garou. 

 

and Lisa Su is Saitama coming to the rescue of AMD i guess. you know, for the comedy factor. we all know Lisa Su is our lord and Savior. showing us nudes of hardware at almost every presentation

[Humbug]

32 minutes ago, Arika S said:

With Intel coming into the game with GPUs they will likely be the ones to give NVidia a run for their money, Nothing against AMD (huge emphasis on this before I get more angry rants against me) AMD doesn't have the money to split between their current CPUs and then potentialn GPUs capable of taking on the top end of NVidia at the moment which is the only reason I can imagine they are focusng on the mid to low end 

It's a question mark at this point. I am sure Intel is putting loads of R&D into this, they have already have experience making integrated GPUs and with the driver stack which will help. But I don't know if they can keep up with Nvidia or even AMD from gen 1 or 2 right off the bat. We are expecting a company that to this day has never released anything faster than a 2013 midrange GTX 760 or R9 270 to show up and take on 2020 Nvidia Ampere. They don't have experience on scaling their design up to big GPUs and the challenges and bottlenecks in that. It may take a few generations to ramp up to that level although I believe they will compete on the long run.

 

Also they need to sort out their fabrication issues, by the time they launch their GPUs both  AMD and Nvidia will be firmly on 7nm and it remains to be seen if Intel 10nm will be ready for big GPU dies with decent yields.

 

I personally believe Intel will do well in this market, but having money is no guarantee of success in taking on Nvidia. Remember before Ryzen launched all the people saying things like "it doesn't matter how good Zen is, Intel has loads of money and unreleased secret sauce architectures in the labs which they can unleash at any time to destroy anything AMD releases".

[LAwLz]

53 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I used to like Raja. Now I see he's a massive dick.

I love how quickly this forum turned on Raja.

Here are some quotes about him from when he went back to AMD:

On 6/1/2016 at 8:00 PM, DXMember said:

we drag the capitalist bodies across the street and paint it red with their blood

all hail to our overlord Raja ! 

On 7/6/2017 at 8:51 AM, Red Hardware said:

For those who don't know : jim keller came back did zen and left amd again(unfortunately) ; raja is back so there is some hope for navi and bob drebin is still working at apple 

On 11/2/2015 at 4:01 PM, zMeul said:

hopefully, with Raja Koduri at helm, things will get better

On 7/7/2015 at 11:41 PM, patrickjp93 said:

Jim Keller, as well as the leads of CPU development for Intel and IBM are hailed as the three premier, peerless electrical engineers in the world. No one else touches them in proven skill. Just as Raja Koduri is basically the guru of graphics chip design, Keller is an elite among the elite. He can tip the scales, but how far is the question.

On 2/24/2016 at 5:22 AM, f22luke said:

Raja Koduri is in charge now so one can not say for sure based off of the past.

On 3/8/2016 at 10:03 PM, DXMember said:

Quote

I have a feeling the next cards from AMD will be good.

off course they will be good, Raja Koduri is behind them

On 1/17/2016 at 2:16 PM, HKZeroFive said:

Honestly, AMD creating Radeon Technologies Group (aka ATI 2.0) was a great decision. Especially when it's lead by Raja Kodur.

 

Can't wait for Polaris.

 

[cj09beira]

8 hours ago, Belgarathian said:

What goes around comes around

 

that roast is Savage, wow 

[leadeater]

25 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Also they need to sort out their fabrication issues, by the time they launch their GPUs both  AMD and Nvidia will be firmly on 7nm and it remains to be seen if Intel 10nm will be ready for big GPU dies with decent yields.

Doubt 10nm is going to be used for GPU, should be 7nm since that is going to be ready in time and you can't realistically use such an expensive fab process on dies that are going to be as big as GPU dies. Intel releasing GPUs more expensive than Nvidia will be taken as a belly flop off the high dive.

[GoldenLag]

16 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

that roast is Savage, wow 

yea, intel is great at roasting.

 

their 95 watt products give out 150 watts of heat. thats a 150% efficiency. damn thats good. 

 

/s

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Intel releasing GPUs more expensive than Nvidia will be taken as a belly flop of the high dive.

for breakthrough success. they would need to match current AMD pricing. keeping in mind that there will be driver hurdles in the beginning like with any new Macroarchitecture. 

[cj09beira]

 

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

No they haven't.

Intel is possibly the largest contributor to open source software in the world. AMD's contributions to the open source world is a drop in the bucket compared to Intel. For example in 2016, about 13% of the contributions to the Linux kernel were from Intel. AMD did 1.9% of the contributions. Then we have other open source projects such as OpenStack, their encoders including but not limited to STV-AV1, BlueZ, a ton machine learning contributions, and the list goes on.

 

 

Mantle was shit. AMD kept it closed source for as long as it was relevant. You could give AMD some credit for Vulkan, but at the same time, Intel played a key role in developing Vulkan too. So did Nvidia in fact. I don't get why AMD gets so much credit for Vulkan when it's all the members in the Khronos group developing it.

 

And I think it's a stretch to call FreeSync an AMD invention as well. They suggested repurposing an existing VESA standard, which was developed by VESA, which Nvidia and Intel are both members of. It might even be that the original standard FreeSync is based on was written by someone from Intel or Nvidia (although I don't have the specs to look that up).

 

 

AMD talks a lot more than other companies about how they contribute to open source. If we look at how large contributions they actually do though, they don't that much though.

mantle did what it needed to do which was change the game, it did a lot considering it was only one what? 1 game, even so it made microsoft change focus with dx12, and helped in the creation of vulkan.

freesync wasn't the first, wasn't the most innovative thing, but it certainly kick started a new age of VRR displays.

is it fair to just look at it like that amd is a much smaller company than many of the top players there, 

[RejZoR]

37 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I love how quickly this forum turned on Raja.

About as quickly as he turned on AMD after he joined Intel...

 

I never said a bad thing even when AMD with him on board was going through hard times with RX Vega. But now him instantly bragging how AMD doesn't stand a chance and shit, come on dude (Raja), do you really have to be that kind of insufferable douche?

[GoldenLag]

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

do you really have to be that kind of insufferable douche?

it does mean we now have a douchebag figurehead at Intel to hate like people dislike Jensen Huang at Nvidia.

 

Raja will probably do amazing things, but you cant escape the perception of being a douche. 

[Humbug]

49 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I love how quickly this forum turned on Raja.

Cause Raja turned to the dark side.

 

He was the chosen one, he was supposed to destroy the sith, not join them, bring balance to the GPU wars...

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Cause Raja turned to the dark side.

 

He was the chosen one, he was supposed to destroy the sith, not join them, bring balance to the GPU wars...

Isn't it a bit more like a proxy war and he joined the trade federation?

 

Also have to be careful of those clones, one day Polaris might turn on us.

[Sparviero]

Didn’t he basically lose a power struggle against Su? He was making big noise that it was only the graphics division keeping things afloat. ATI should be spun off again. Then he took a sabbatical after Vega/Zen about face in company fortunes. Only to turn up at Intel. 

 

I dont know know if he thought a similar investment in graphics would have had a better RoI than Zen. But to a non-industry person it seemed like he lost a pissing match against the boss. 

[LAwLz]

26 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

it made microsoft change focus with dx12,

[Citation Needed]

 

27 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

is it fair to just look at it like that amd is a much smaller company than many of the top players there, 

Again, I don't agree. By the same logic an individual who contributes to the Linux kernel should be praised as a God, since he has a billionth of the resources Intel or AMD has.

We should not apply some multiplier to the praise we give a company just because they are smaller. In fact, we should not even look at who did what when evaluating how much praise to give.

A 1 million dollar company should not get twice as much praise as a 2 million dollar company if both did the exact same thing. They should get exactly the same amount of praise.

 

If you change how much praise you give something based on which company did it, then you're a very biased fanboy.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

About as quickly as he turned on AMD after he joined Intel...

Yeah... What a surprise that a person working for a company talks well about the company they work for, and talk ill about competitors. This is a truly shocking surprise!

Do you honestly think that for example Lisa Su or Robert Swan wouldn't behave exactly the same way? It's their jobs to act the way they do.

 

And I mean, this is a quote taken from a much longer talk during an investor meeting. I feel like I don't even know the context of what he is talking about and referencing, and I doubt many people in this thread does either.

[RejZoR]

4 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

Didn’t he basically lose a power struggle against Su? He was making big noise that it was only the graphics division keeping things afloat. ATI should be spun off again. Then he took a sabbatical after Vega/Zen about face in company fortunes. Only to turn up at Intel. 

 

I dont know know if he thought a similar investment in graphics would have had a better RoI than Zen. But to a non-industry person it seemed like he lost a pissing match against the boss. 

Or he's not that magic boy we all thought he was. Like for example Jim Keller who did the magic twice for AMD (legendary K7 and now Zen cores) and I don't think there's a single person not praising him for that. He's now at Intel and I still think of him highly, because he didn't say any arrogant things and I respect that. Raja said just one thing and lost most of respect for it. I hope it was worth it for him...

[Humbug]

12 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

Didn’t he basically lose a power struggle against Su? He was making big noise that it was only the graphics division keeping things afloat. ATI should be spun off again. Then he took a sabbatical after Vega/Zen about face in company fortunes. Only to turn up at Intel. 

 

I dont know know if he thought a similar investment in graphics would have had a better RoI than Zen. But to a non-industry person it seemed like he lost a pissing match against the boss. 

The other rumour was that he was upset that Lisa was pulling all his engineers off from the Vega project to work on Navi which he blamed for Vega being sub-par. So he decided he was not gonna stick around once Vega was done. But that's all we have, rumours...

 

Obviously the sabbatical was fake, in reality it was cause he was joining Intel.

[LukaH]

alright Raja, show us your cards then!

 

i'm calling.

[Trixanity]

19 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Again, I don't agree. By the same logic an individual who contributes to the Linux kernel should be praised as a God, since he has a billionth of the resources Intel or AMD has.

We should not apply some multiplier to the praise we give a company just because they are smaller. In fact, we should not even look at who did what when evaluating how much praise to give.

A 1 million dollar company should not get twice as much praise as a 2 million dollar company if both did the exact same thing. They should get exactly the same amount of praise.

 

If you change how much praise you give something based on which company did it, then you're a very biased fanboy.

I do think there is a case to be made for a relative contribution just as there is one for absolute contributions. Isolated they don't mean much but in conjunction they provide a better context for understanding the value of something.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

I do think there is a case to be made for a relative contribution just as there is one for absolute contributions. Isolated they don't mean much but in conjunction they provide a better context for understanding the value of something.

Also qualitative vs quantitative assessment too. You can be submitting a lot of work but if it nets little benefit or use to the wider world or only helps your own products then how much value do you actually bring to the open source ecosystem. If everything Intel does is to benefit only themselves and their products and has no value to anything else what are they achieving, same goes for AMD and Nvidia.

 

No matter how much Intel submits to open source software I still see significant efforts in closed ecosystems like OmniPath interconnect rather than contributing to the many existing open standards consortiums made up of all the other industry players sans Intel and Nvidia. Intel very much has an open door policy, but puts a bear trap in the door way. "Come in, we're happy to hear what you have to say". *slam* *leg trapped*.