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Nowak

Microsoft to ship full Linux kernel within Windows 10

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On 5/7/2019 at 7:02 AM, Screen said:

The vision and focus is shifting. They are just Improving their stand over Linux with integrations such as this. Nothing will be able to touch them with their aggressive adaption to opensource and Linux technologies to cater needs of developers. They have already won the battle if there was one.

Yup classic EEE (embrace, extend,  extinguish)


                     ¸„»°'´¸„»°'´ Vorticalbox `'°«„¸`'°«„¸
`'°«„¸¸„»°'´¸„»°'´`'°«„¸Scientia Potentia est  ¸„»°'´`'°«„¸`'°«„¸¸„»°'´

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As a developer this solves a few issues for me, specially how slow it was to run git clones and npm builds on WSL 1.0.

This a move to capture developers into Microsoft sphere to sell Azure services, just that.

Office, the old cash cow, is now a web application with some desktops apps that are just custom web browsers (Electron apps).

I would just hope that better business people would jump to Canonical to try to gain something out of all this movement so more money can flow into desktop. And if I'm dreaming, more into mobile linux.

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On 5/7/2019 at 12:09 AM, NeuesTestament said:

Does this mean Windows would be able to natively run Linux software? If so that would be quite interesting.

Only command line software, which is no different than FreeBSD or MacOS X. It's just Microsoft being late for dinner. Keep in mind that at one time, MacOS X also shipped a X11 subsystem so you could run some Linux/BSD software on it pretty much unaltered.

 

Microsoft's plans here are pretty transparent, they want people to be able to use Windows for all the same purposes they use Linux for. Right now (unless you've been in living on another planet) Windows can't grow it's install base, because developers are balking at only having the choice of developing for Windows on Windows, or Linux on Linux, you couldn't previously build Linux apps from Windows, but now you can with Clang-LLVM natively, and not just Mingw32 (aka GCC for windows) and not have to put up with clunky cygwin pseudo-linux installs. If Microsoft makes it easy to develop Cross-platform software on Windows, then people will stay on Windows. Right now it's fairly easy to dev on Windows and deploy on Mac, but pretty much impossible to deploy on Linux, since none of the underlying subsystems exist, and there are several header files that only exist on Unix-like systems that Microsoft doesn't come with.

 

This opens up the other side of the coin, of remote administration tools are far more efficient if you bypass all the GUI-whatizthis and deploy stuff by command line tools.

 

But no, don't expect Linux software to run on the Linux subsystem if it requires access to "real hardware". My guess is that they're actually running this Linux Subsystem on top of the same VirtualPC layer they previously used with Windows XP on Windows Vista, except THAT Virtual PC didn't give you access to the real hardware at all, it was a RDP session all along. If you wanted to re-purpose that XP image as a real virtual machine you had to migrate it to VmWare player.

 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq

Quote

Why would I use WSL rather than Linux in a VM?

WSL requires fewer resources (CPU, memory, and storage) than a full virtual machine. WSL also allows you to run Linux command-line tools and apps alongside your Windows command-line, desktop and store apps, and to access your Windows files from within Linux. This enables you to use Windows apps and Linux command-line tools on the same set of files if you wish.

...

Can I run ALL Linux apps in WSL?

No! WSL is a tool aimed at enabling users who need them to run Bash and core Linux command-line tools on Windows.

WSL does not aim to support GUI desktops or applications (e.g. Gnome, KDE, etc.)

Also, even though you will be able to run many popular server applications (e.g. Redis), we do not recommend WSL for hosting production services – Microsoft offers a variety of solutions for running production Linux workloads in Azure, Hyper-V, and Docker.

 

If it can run the Linux Kernel, it's obviously doing some kind of virtualization, it's probably compiled against drivers that let it see the file system seemlessly, as that's pretty much what happens on MacOS X when you virtualize a Windows system. 

 

 

 

 

 

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I skimmed through the thread and it seems there's confusion about how the whole thing works, so here's MS presentation if want to watch or skim through it since its an hour long

 

tl;dw

it's a VM but has a bunch of integrations with the OS

They are using a protocol for communication between each OS file system so there are no compatibility issues with reading and writing files between each other.

The IO issues in WSL are fixed due to Linux having an ext4 partition.

Multiple instances of WSL run on the same VM.

switching and installing multiple distros between WSL1 and WSL2 is easy and fast.

and some of the improvements in WSL2 will apply to WSL1.

 


this is one of the greatest thing that has happened to me recently, and it happened on this forum, those involved have my eternal gratitude http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/198850-update-alex-got-his-moto-g2-lets-get-a-moto-g-for-alexgoeshigh-unofficial/ :')

i use to have the second best link in the world here, but it died ;_; its a 404 now but it will always be here

 

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On 5/7/2019 at 3:29 AM, Nowak said:

The Linux kernel will be included in the base Windows 10 install (from 19H2 on)

To interface with it, you need to install a userspace (such as Ubuntu or OpenSuSE) from the Windows Store, which will include Bash and all the terminal commands and such

Then, using Windows Terminal, you can run Linux terminal commands and execute Linux software natively on Windows

Then isnt it like virtual machine in a way?

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21 hours ago, Kisai said:

If Microsoft makes it easy to develop Cross-platform software on Windows, then people will stay on Windows. 

Except when you need to run things like docker, development with docker is a much nicer time on Linux than windows.

 

 

A few things that really annoy me about ot.:

 

1. you have to run it in VM so it's slow and i always forget to start the docker app and when I do it takes so long before I can actually start developing

 

2. It will throw errors because of file paths into node_modules so you have to always have a .dockerIgnore to make sure it's ok.

 

3. Mounting volumes and using something like pm2 or nodemon doesn't work do you have to restart your container to see changes.


                     ¸„»°'´¸„»°'´ Vorticalbox `'°«„¸`'°«„¸
`'°«„¸¸„»°'´¸„»°'´`'°«„¸Scientia Potentia est  ¸„»°'´`'°«„¸`'°«„¸¸„»°'´

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Posted · Original PosterOP
54 minutes ago, Devin92 said:

Then isnt it like virtual machine in a way?

Not really? Since it's part of Windows itself.


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Embrace -> Extend -> Extinguish

(Right now we're witnessing the first stage)

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^Yay! More fear mongering!


Waste of time

Candour and lies

For what I left behind

I know the price was high

 

No tears to cry

No words to make it right

But now I know

That home is where my heart desires.

 

 

Pyo.

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6 hours ago, Drak3 said:

^Yay! More fear mongering!

We should all remember that Microsoft are in fact convicted criminals who has at several points in the past been brought to court for things such as EEE and been found guilty. 

 

I wouldn't really say this is fear mongering as much as it is being cautious and reminding people about Microsoft's history. 

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

We should all remember that Microsoft are in fact convicted criminals who has at several points in the past been brought to court for things such as EEE and been found guilty. 

 

I wouldn't really say this is fear mongering as much as it is being cautious and reminding people about Microsoft's history. 

Given that EEE has been brought up in the last few threads because microsoft did something people were not expecting, yes i would say its fear mongering. The way this forum acts is not being "cautious" its making accusations right off the bat.

 

Or is the presumption of innocence just completely ignored these days? Have they been guilty in the past? Absolutely, does that mean everything they do from now on is evil? No.

 

Again this forum (and many others) dig their fangs into anything MS related and try to spin it in the worst possible light and make accusations based on their own bias instead of taking a step back and seeing what happens. 

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2 hours ago, Arika S said:

Or is the presumption of innocence just completely ignored these days? Have they been guilty in the past? Absolutely, does that mean everything they do from now on is evil? No. 

It's hard to assume innocence when Microsoft have been so horrible in the past. It takes time to rebuild reputation and trust. Just ask any convict trying to apply for a job for example. Your actions in the past forms how people view you in the present and future.

 

It's not really surprising that people are afraid of EEE when it was an actual business tactic Microsoft came up with, in order to kill competitors and gain monopoly over things like standards. We still live with the consequences of their old actions to this day.

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On 5/7/2019 at 8:52 AM, bcredeur97 said:

they said Windows 10 is the last "windows"

maybe that meant the next one will be linux based?

I had the same thought. This could be them playing around with getting Windows and Linux software to work together. Maybe we will see some kind of MS Linux distro that allows you to run Windows based software nativity. 


You ever notice that many establishments have a sign that as "No Shirt, No Shoes, No service"? They never say anything about pants............ You know what that implies. You dont have to wear pants. 

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6 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

I had the same thought. This could be them playing around with getting Windows and Linux software to work together. Maybe we will see some kind of MS Linux distro that allows you to run Windows based software nativity. 

I don't think they will ever let you do that... Honestly, what would they gain? On the opposite, a full linux compatibility for Windows is appealing

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Just now, Chunchunmaru_ said:

Honestly, what would they gain?

A new OS kernal to replace the old one, that allows modularity.

 

Honestly, if there were a KVM capable Windows, I'd run it on a Threadripper build as my main system.


Waste of time

Candour and lies

For what I left behind

I know the price was high

 

No tears to cry

No words to make it right

But now I know

That home is where my heart desires.

 

 

Pyo.

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1 minute ago, Chunchunmaru_ said:

Honestly, what would they gain?

Better software support for one. They might be looking for a change. To my understanding every version of windows was built on top of the previous. I mean Windows 2000, XP, and so on use a modified NT kernel. Maybe they are trying for a brand new OS. A OS with better security, and more flexibility, especially for Admins/business. 


You ever notice that many establishments have a sign that as "No Shirt, No Shoes, No service"? They never say anything about pants............ You know what that implies. You dont have to wear pants. 

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5 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Honestly, if there were a KVM capable Windows, I'd run it on a Threadripper build as my main system. 

What do you mean by "KVM capable Windows"?

 

Do you want to run Windows in KVM? Because that works just fine.

Do you want to run KVM but with the Windows kernel instead of Linux? Why? And why not run Hyper-V if that's what you want.

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to me this is great news. the terminal situation on windows is quite behind what you have on linux or on macos. Sure there is bash for windows but the details... the details... if the terminal is any good this makes my macbook obsolete. Windows in an office environment just working nicely. Of course there is MS Office - hate it or not, its there. Docking station support is there, attaching a hdmi cable without restarting some x-server or other funky thing in a terminal just works. Driver support, battery life for notebooks... there are a couple of reasons to use windows and live with the drawbacks.

The whole docker integration and all the new command lines for cloud services or development made a good console more and important. Powershell had some good ideas but never took off. Microsoft today is quite a different company than 5 years ago.

 

Just watch the presentation in the windows developer channel: 

this sort of presentation wouldn't have happened only a couple of years ago.

 

So this is great news.

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On 5/10/2019 at 1:06 PM, Devin92 said:

Then isnt it like virtual machine in a way?

It is. It's likely pretty much exactly how I described it.

 

It's not too different from running Win on Mac, or Win on Win on VMware "desktop integration" modes. For GUI stuff, it takes advantage of how windows are created on the respective OS. 

 

Like Windows XP on Win Vista/7 Pro was simply RDP to terminal services on the XP VM. In this case I'm assuming WSL is basically a transparent SSH session with the Windows file system mounted via SMB. 

 

But that said...

On 5/11/2019 at 10:02 AM, Mr Prince said:

Now ditch directx and invest in Vulkan 💖

There needs to be more pull from the Vulkan devs for this. Vulkan is -hard- to setup correctly. Microsoft will never drop DirectX, or should I say Direct3D, because there's legacy software that uses it, and you can't emulate layers upon layers, because it's a performance drag. Microsoft has the source code to every version of DirectX, if they wanted to they could rewrite each version of DirectX to directly use Direct3D 12, and the old software would benefit from it, and run less crappy than it would under emulation wrappers. Microsoft has abandoned no less than 4 audio/media API's (MCI/WinMM (win3.1-XP),KMixer, DirectShow, Directsound/DirectMusic, Xaudio2, and none of these API's are anything like each other, and emulating DirectSound incurs high latency in Vista and later) and we are now on WASAPI (since Win7), and we really do need a "Vulkan Audio" api to exist to co-exist with Vulkan's GPU/Compute API. Where as Windows also went through GDI/GDI+, WinG, and DirectDraw1-7. Never mind Window creation and Input, which there is nothing in common between versions of Windows or any other OS. DirectInput, Xinput, vs hmm I don't even know what the API is called on OSX or Linux offhand.

 

But that's the really going back to the argument about why the Linux subsystem for Windows won't be letting you run GUI apps.

 

 

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