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TECHNOKID

iMore's reply to Linus on why macs are slower than PCs

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Just now, Drak3 said:

Turbo boost is based off of heat and power draw, if the chip gets hot enough, it turbos less.

 

If it gets hot enough, a chip will lower its clockspeed below the base clock, this is thermal throttling.

 

 

Most Macs can’t maintain turbo speeds for long but will still not thermal throttle. Some may thermal throttle (like the i9 MacBook Pro 15” when it was first released).

Thank you, I genuinely was not thinking.... well am just dumb

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8 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

1. Shrinking the die, as far as I am aware, reduces power consumption and ups efficiency.

2. Shrinking the die does not mean you have to cram more cores in there, to compensate. Because you haven't lost anything.

It does increase efficiency, but it also increases transistor density which affects heat output which as far as I'm aware does not scale linearly but I could be wrong on that, I'm not versed in thermodynamics.


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Last time I touched a Mac Book was back in 2012-2013 when my friend was rendering stuff for class and it was uncomfortable to the touch, shit running a nintendo 64 emulator on that thing was hard as hell to do also, choppy stuttery mess.

 

8 minutes ago, 2FA said:

It does increase efficiency, but it also increases transistor density which affects heat output which as far as I'm aware does not scale linearly but I could be wrong on that, I'm not versed in thermodynamics.

If you cram more transistors in a smaller space you'll generate as much or more heat. Smaller transistors means less power required to switch them so technically they should produce less heat but if you cram more in a smaller space then you just effectively made it hotter or as hot as the bigger ones.


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9 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

 

Which, again, can totally be done, but not without other, different compromises on the aforementioned noise or portability or dependency on AC rather than battery power.

is it just me or does this sentence make absolutely no f*cking sense at all. Now, im on two hours of sleep and a massive hangover, but still this makes literally no sense to me.

Wouldn't upping efficiency and lowering powerdraw of the chip as a whole while maintaining performance, which IS something that intel has done in the past, or at the very least gaining performance at the same powerdraw; how would that compromise noise? or require dependency on AC? Wouldn't it just mean it either draws less power, or exactly the same power? making no difference to noise, or infact lowering noise?

 

This "article" is FULL of broken logic like that, it reads a lot more like a blog post than anything else.

Quote

The vast majority of people don't want or need a literally water-cooled MacBook Pro. They want and need exactly the snappy feeling one in day to day use Linus mentions.

No, the vast majority of people DIDNT want that. the macbook pro used to be used by and marketed to overwhelmingly actual professionals who required it to perform well consistently on heavy workloads where ever they were. Since apple made the decision to move away from marketing to professionals and more towards marketing it as clout because it would make them more money, they have alienated their core audience for the product. Nowadays people who buy macbook pros don't require that kind of performance, but there was a time where they did, before the market for it shifted. Enthusiasts are upset because apple stopped catering to them in search of more money, because ultimately abandoning them made financial sense.

 

Quote

(Author) has been covering the personal technology industry for a decade...

and apparently has a fundamentally broken understanding of computers and computer design, and is instead willing to do anything to shill for apple as long as he stays on their gub-boy list and gets press materials and invitations to closed events. Reminds me heavily of the auto-journo industry. filled with paid shills and disingenuous yearnalists looking for easy gibs and vacation catered events. Thats all this "article" is.


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4 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

that still doesn't mean everyone who buys them buys them for looks. 

 

you are right. I was just saying maybe the thermals aren't too bad and you just need a custom fan curve. to be clear I would love if they went back to the 2012 design. the keyboards on those are SO much better than the new one's. 

Honestly, I'm not so sure about a fan curve being the silver bullet here. My MacBook Air 2015 has a 15W dual-core i5 and even with fan speed at max, AIDA64 will put that chip into the high 90s (and that's repasted). For bursts, the cooling solution is fine, but it's clear that Apple isn't building these things for long loads.

 

For the 15" MBPtb, this is the heatsink that is expected to do the heavy lifting for both CPU and GPU. The CPU is supposedly 45W, and I say "supposedly" because Intel has gotten screwy with their TDP ratings as of late. Coupled with the 35W Radeon Pro 560X, you're looking at that heatsink having to handle 80W+ of heat. I wouldn't mind seeing someone put MacsFanControl on it and max the fans out to see what it's capable of, but I suspect it's not going to change much since it will already run max fan speed under full load anyways.

 

It's not only Apple's fault though, since Intel wants to push the spiciest possible chips onto the market with hilariously optimistic TDPs. Can someone tell me how Intel managed to get the same TDP on the i9-8950HK as they did on the i7-7700HQ? The i9 has 2C/4T more, it has a higher base and boost clock (1GHz higher in fact) and a higher sustained clock assuming cooling and power aren't an issue (4.3GHz.) As far as I'm concerned, there's no justifiable answer beyond Intel being liars. 

 

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@TheSLSAMG my MacBook Pro 13" Mid-2012 will stay in the low 70's with the fans at max rpm. and stock paste. 

 

I also have a 15" Late 2011 with the radeon gpu disabled. and I mean physically disabled. i removed a resistor off the board so the GPU gets no voltage at all. a friend is currently borrowing it so I can't test it now but that thing with the fans at max rpm and stock paste got into the 80's when I tested it a few months ago, with the gpu disabled!


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41 minutes ago, TheSLSAMG said:

It's not only Apple's fault though, since Intel wants to push the spiciest possible chips onto the market with hilariously optimistic TDPs. Can someone tell me how Intel managed to get the same TDP on the i9-8950HK as they did on the i7-7700HQ? The i9 has 2C/4T more, it has a higher base and boost clock (1GHz higher in fact) and a higher sustained clock assuming cooling and power aren't an issue (4.3GHz.) As far as I'm concerned, there's no justifiable answer beyond Intel being liars. 

1. They are technically not liars, I am sure you can manipulate tests. Example: 7700K is 91W, 9900K is 95W. Yeah, not happening no matter what they say. 

2. Apple (and other OEMs) are using new parts because you gotta compete, Apple (since we're talking them hre) hasn't improved cooling in their Ultrabooks but is using much beefier CPUs. 2017 MBP that my gf has has an i5 (2C/4T), gets noticeably hot when downloading big files at high speeds when CPU needs to work a bit more. And they put an 8550U (double of C/T) inside in the 2018 model. Same cooling solution. Apple is to blame as well. 


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1 hour ago, TheSLSAMG said:

For the 15" MBPtb, this is the heatsink that is expected to do the heavy lifting for both CPU and GPU. The CPU is supposedly 45W

Now you poked up my curiosity, how high are the fins on that thing? My HP gaming notebook has  a 8750H and it can keep it at ~80°C while running p95 small FFT's and it stays at 2.4GHz....

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2 hours ago, 2FA said:

It does increase efficiency, but it also increases transistor density which affects heat output which as far as I'm aware does not scale linearly but I could be wrong on that, I'm not versed in thermodynamics.

Not an issue if they'd slightly increase the thickness of their laptops and provide proper cooling solutions.

2 hours ago, Atmos said:

is it just me or does this sentence make absolutely no f*cking sense at all. Now, im on two hours of sleep and a massive hangover, but still this makes literally no sense to me.

Wouldn't upping efficiency and lowering powerdraw of the chip as a whole while maintaining performance, which IS something that intel has done in the past, or at the very least gaining performance at the same powerdraw; how would that compromise noise? or require dependency on AC? Wouldn't it just mean it either draws less power, or exactly the same power? making no difference to noise, or infact lowering noise?

 

This "article" is FULL of broken logic like that, it reads a lot more like a blog post than anything else.

No, the vast majority of people DIDNT want that. the macbook pro used to be used by and marketed to overwhelmingly actual professionals who required it to perform well consistently on heavy workloads where ever they were. Since apple made the decision to move away from marketing to professionals and more towards marketing it as clout because it would make them more money, they have alienated their core audience for the product. Nowadays people who buy macbook pros don't require that kind of performance, but there was a time where they did, before the market for it shifted. Enthusiasts are upset because apple stopped catering to them in search of more money, because ultimately abandoning them made financial sense.

 

and apparently has a fundamentally broken understanding of computers and computer design, and is instead willing to do anything to shill for apple as long as he stays on their gub-boy list and gets press materials and invitations to closed events. Reminds me heavily of the auto-journo industry. filled with paid shills and disingenuous yearnalists looking for easy gibs and vacation catered events. Thats all this "article" is.

I was drunk as hell at 4am and that sentence made as much sense as it does now. They basically are making the assumption that if the die gets shrunk, more cores will need to be put in (why? I have no fucking idea) and that would make it hotter.

 

Which is true, but the problem is, they wouldn't need to put more cores in. It would just be a smaller more efficient chip. Might run slightly hotter, might not, I don't know.

 

All of this by fans of a company that design a keyboard with the power button integrated in such a way that if you spill something on the keyboard, your power button doesn't work and your laptop is essentially dead.

 

Any other company? The power button is separate and still works, you can plug in a $5 USB keyboard and keep going until you can get it repaired. This is "thinking different", apparently.


Computer's don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. By now your name and particulars have been fed into every laptop, desktop, mainframe and supermarket scanner that collectively make up the global information conspiracy, otherwise known as The Beast.

 

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12 hours ago, TECHNOKID said:

that the thermals prevent maximum performance, applies to similarly designed PCs as well

Yeah, well, it doesn't "prevent" maximum performance, it prevents itself from melting by throttling performance

When you pay extra $400 (+/-) for an i9 MacBook Pro and get the i7 performance, that's the problem we are talking about here; there are lots of "Windows" laptops that thermal throttles, but maybe those are like... 0.1% of the "Windows" laptops? While the thermal throttled Macs are like the 80% of the MacOS laptops?

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11 hours ago, huilun02 said:

Looks like just another Apple fan using the subjectivity argument to try and disprove a statement that has nothing to do with subjectivity.

 

Doesnt seem like news to me

Its literally the anti-vax people


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3 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Not an issue if they'd slightly increase the thickness of their laptops and provide proper cooling solutions.

I was drunk as hell at 4am and that sentence made as much sense as it does now. They basically are making the assumption that if the die gets shrunk, more cores will need to be put in (why? I have no fucking idea) and that would make it hotter.

 

Which is true, but the problem is, they wouldn't need to put more cores in. It would just be a smaller more efficient chip. Might run slightly hotter, might not, I don't know.

 

All of this by fans of a company that design a keyboard with the power button integrated in such a way that if you spill something on the keyboard, your power button doesn't work and your laptop is essentially dead.

 

Any other company? The power button is separate and still works, you can plug in a $5 USB keyboard and keep going until you can get it repaired. This is "thinking different", apparently.

Yea i only found out about that the other night watching the rossmann drunk stream. Just insane the kind of things apple goes to, to achieve their aesthetic and cut costs, literally at the cost of functionality, time and time again. and people like the author will support them and cheer the whole time. Yay regression!


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9 hours ago, leadeater said:

You just don't understand, they are designed to throttle so it's fine*.

*Please ignore all MacBook Pro products before 2015 that didn't have this issue or was very minor.

My MacBook Air 2013 reached a nice 100 degrees on load and didn’t throttle. 

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These threads make me hate the clickbait even more. It turns the forums into flamwars because they continue to use clickbait and titles to incite this kind of reaction


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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8 hours ago, leadeater said:

Pointing out part of the problem that Intel CPUs produce more heat is completely valid however it's not helped by the reduction is chassis capability for cooling, compounding the issue is not exactly a smart idea. You can optimize the voltage profiles, frequency steps, fan curves as much as you like but those are not replacements for better cooling. That's a complimentary relationship, particularly important in laptops.

 

I don't think that is valid as I also don't think cooling solutions are complimentary.  They are very integral to the design, the only way thermal throttling is not the result of poor design is if Intel somehow refused to let apple read the product data sheet nor experiment with the CPU's before they went into mass production.

 

When the cooling solution is set to dissipate a maximum of 45Watts (regardless what the limitation is) out of the factory then the best you can expect from that product is base clocks in an average CPU.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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2 hours ago, Atmos said:

Yea i only found out about that the other night watching the rossmann drunk stream. Just insane the kind of things apple goes to, to achieve their aesthetic and cut costs, literally at the cost of functionality, time and time again. and people like the author will support them and cheer the whole time. Yay regression!

Don't forget the complete and utter incompetence and nigh anti-consumer nature of the "genius" bar.

 

So genius they don't know how to repair their own fucking products properly.


Computer's don't make errors. What they do, they do on purpose. By now your name and particulars have been fed into every laptop, desktop, mainframe and supermarket scanner that collectively make up the global information conspiracy, otherwise known as The Beast.

 

You just be careful. Computers have already beaten the Communists at chess. Next thing you know, they'll be beating humans.

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33 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I don't think that is valid as I also don't think cooling solutions are complimentary.  They are very integral to the design, the only way thermal throttling is not the result of poor design is if Intel somehow refused to let apple read the product data sheet nor experiment with the CPU's before they went into mass production.

 

When the cooling solution is set to dissipate a maximum of 45Watts (regardless what the limitation is) out of the factory then the best you can expect from that product is base clocks in an average CPU.

Well I was more implying that all those factors should be done, because while you can cool the chip you might want to have better control of it over the defaults to keep noise down for example. Apple is one of the few that actually attempts to do all 3, most brute force with big cooling which at least is hard to go wrong.

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10 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

are you using the Grammarly plugin, by chance? o_o

Yes, actually...


Main PC: AMD Ryzen 1700 (8c/16t), MSI B350 Tomahawk, NDH 15, T-Force Delta RGB 16GB, Asus ROG STRIX RX-580, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crucial MX-300 1.05TB, 8TB WD Red/White, Seasonic S12II 620W.

School Laptop: Early 2014 Macbook Air. Intel i5-4260U, 4GB RAM, 128GB Apple PCI-E SSD, Intel HD Graphics 5000

Phone: iPhone XS Max 64GB: A12 Bionic. 4GB RAM, 6.5-inch 2,688 x 1,242 OLED, 3,174 mAh 

Wearables: Samsung Gear S3 Frontier, Sony 1000XM2

Random devices in various stages of working: Dell Inspiron 1000 (Works perfect other than battery), Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody (For Sale), Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

 

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2 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

I don't think that is valid as I also don't think cooling solutions are complimentary.  They are very integral to the design, the only way thermal throttling is not the result of poor design is if Intel somehow refused to let apple read the product data sheet nor experiment with the CPU's before they went into mass production.

 

When the cooling solution is set to dissipate a maximum of 45Watts (regardless what the limitation is) out of the factory then the best you can expect from that product is base clocks in an average CPU.

I think Apple knows completely well that their cooling solution is complete garbage (just like other companies who try to stuff latest i7's in slim designs and those who even try to stuff i9's into laptops without extreme cooling solutions). It's just that Apple has shifted from engineering and design to design and marketing company and any complains and cries from engineering are thrown into folder "Z" and forgotten right away because it's far more important to have slim and good looking design and the most craziest numbers on the paper for marketing than compromising any of it for better performance. In general, putting those stove-CPUs to any laptop which has in any point "slim" written in it's design is just awful design.

 

My new favorite joke argument is "because it must work snappier". Like WTF, how much does i9 bring to the table compared to i7 in means of loading Facebook or opening the browser? Do we count milliseconds o even nanoseconds? I would guess latency and netspeed play far bigger role in that than the performance gain from i7 to i9. And in opening software I would guess "snappier" feel would be gained from RAIDing two SSDs than upgrading from i7 to i9 (I would argue that the moving SSD controller from the SSD itself to T2-chip made as much latency as could be gained from the upgrade of CPU). Of course unless the computer is already digging its own grave from poor memory management and 101 services running in the background.

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14 hours ago, leadeater said:

Please ignore all MacBook Pro products before 2015 that didn't have this issue or was very minor.

That never happened. Those models “overheated” as well. 


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6 hours ago, Atmos said:

is it just me or does this sentence make absolutely no f*cking sense at all.

Design, performance, battery life. 

 

Pick two. 


Laptop: 2016 13" nTB MacBook Pro Core i5 | Phone: iPhone 8 Plus 64GB | Wearables: Apple Watch Sport Series 2 | CPU: R5 2600 | Mobo: ASRock B450M Pro4 | RAM: 16GB 2666 | GPU: Sapphire Nitro+ RX 580 4GB | Case: Apple PowerMac G5 | OS: Win 10 | Storage: 480GB PNY SSD & 2TB WD Green HDD | PSU: Corsair CX600M | Display: Dell UZ2215H 21.5" 1080p, ViewSonic VX2450wm-LED 23.6" 1080p, Samsung SyncMaster 940BX 19" 1024p | Cooling: Wraith Prism | Keyboard: G610 Orion Cherry MX Brown | Mouse: G303 | Audio: Audio Technica ATH-M50X & Blue Snowball
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4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

That never happened. Those models “overheated” as well. 

They got hot, not throttled down to base or below easily. They were also designed to be hot for noise reasons. Hot isn't specifically bad unless it's having other impacts to the system.

 

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Design, performance, battery life. 

 

Pick two. 

Older MacBook Pros had all 3.

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6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Older MacBook Pros had all 3.

I don’t believe that. 


Laptop: 2016 13" nTB MacBook Pro Core i5 | Phone: iPhone 8 Plus 64GB | Wearables: Apple Watch Sport Series 2 | CPU: R5 2600 | Mobo: ASRock B450M Pro4 | RAM: 16GB 2666 | GPU: Sapphire Nitro+ RX 580 4GB | Case: Apple PowerMac G5 | OS: Win 10 | Storage: 480GB PNY SSD & 2TB WD Green HDD | PSU: Corsair CX600M | Display: Dell UZ2215H 21.5" 1080p, ViewSonic VX2450wm-LED 23.6" 1080p, Samsung SyncMaster 940BX 19" 1024p | Cooling: Wraith Prism | Keyboard: G610 Orion Cherry MX Brown | Mouse: G303 | Audio: Audio Technica ATH-M50X & Blue Snowball
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2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

I don’t believe that. 

A shitload of other similarly priced laptops also have all 3.


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