iMore's reply to Linus on why macs are slower than PCs

[Sauron]

26 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

it is correct though. a similarly designed pc does the same thing. (i9 zenbook pro)

Yes, but you can buy a core i9 PC that isn't similarly designed and doesn't have this problem. You can't buy a core i9 macbook that doesn't have this problem.

[Trik'Stari]

3 hours ago, TetraSky said:

This only affected a small number of users.

Yeah, just like every other problem apple has had with their designs, at least, according to them.

 

13 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I think you're confusing a discussion about hardware with a discussion about software. It's not macOS that makes macs slower, it's the bad thermal design - and a cpu that overheats with inadequate cooling isn't a one-off freak event, it's thermodynamics.

 

Does that mean all PCs are better designed or cooler? Of course not but, usually, when you drop 2k on them they are or, at the very least, you can find one that is. If you want a mac, on the other hand, you don't really have a choice.

Apple users tend to conflate or confuse the two (hardware and software).

 

The fact is, for the price you pay for most apple machines, you can get more performance and better specs out of a non apple machine that has been properly designs and built.

[SenKa]

 

 

 

8 hours ago, TECHNOKID said:

"which makes it decidedly not a Mac thing at all" isn't true as there are no pcs that I know of with an i9 of this form factor.

Original article by iMore: https://www.imore.com/linus-wrong-about-macs-being-slower-pcs-heres-why

How about the Gigabyte Aero 15? Linus used it as a comparative benchmarking "thin i9 laptop" in the very video in question.

[Sauron]

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Apple users tend to conflate or confuse the two.

He did say he hates Apple tho ‍

[SenKa]

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Sauron said:

Does that mean all PCs are better designed or cooler? Of course not but, usually, when you drop 2k on them they are or, at the very least, you can find one that is. If you want a mac, on the other hand, you don't really have a choice.

Sadly, the only choice to buy a Macbook Pro that throttles is:

 

Install Mac Fan Control (which I do on all my MacBooks regardless)

Buy a Macbook Pro 13, and a portable eGPU if you need the dGPU power of the 15"

 

I love Macbooks, not to the point of being an "iSheep" or fanboy, but they are truly brilliant devices... er, were.

 

The lack of a 4 core 15" Macbook Pro baffles me. The lack of a 13" Macbook Pro with a dGPU baffles me, the lack of a 4 core Macbook Air baffles me.

 

I'm more than fine with the current "lack of ports" (in very heavy quotation marks) design of the newer Macbooks, given the undeniable versatility of the Thunderbolt 3 standard. Apple could smother a MBP with every port under the sun and some tech journalist somewhere would wish for some random port that was omitted. Solution? Allow infinite options. Its the closest to making everybody happy as you can get. Apple does need to simply kill the lowest spec 2 TB3 port 13" models. There is 0 reason for them to exist.

[SenKa]

 

 

 

3 hours ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

-snip-

I meant doesn't throttle, but can't edit. My LTT is bugged.

[yolosnail]

I stopped being interested in MacBooks when they got rid of the 17" (Having said that, I currently have a 15" laptop so....)

 

Having said that, I do actually use my Mac Pro (2009 8 core, that manages to run quiet and cool because it has this new fangled thing called airflow) all the time now because MacOS has grown on me to the point where I'd rather use a Mac than my PC. I actually run MacOS in a VM on my laptop for certain things when I'm out and about

[Sauron]

27 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

Apple could smother a MBP with every port under the sun and some tech journalist somewhere would wish for some random port that was omitted. Solution? Allow infinite options.

I don't know about that - certainly there's nothing wrong with the macbook having usb-c ports and nobody is saying they should have every port imaginable but, in my opinion, a couple of type-A ports and a regular hdmi port should still be there. Even if all your devices used usb-c, 4 ports aren't that many and having to always bring an adapter with you kind of defeats the purpose of a thin and light device; they might as well have made it 2mm thicker and added those ports.

 

Of course it's much worse for the "regular" macbook - one port is definitely not enough, especially when it also acts as charging port.

16 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

MacOS has grown on me to the point where I'd rather use a Mac than my PC.

Have you tried Linux? You get the same unix-like benefits without being tied to Apple hardware

[Commodus]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I don't know about that - certainly there's nothing wrong with the macbook having usb-c ports and nobody is saying they should have every port imaginable but, in my opinion, a couple of type-A ports and a regular hdmi port should still be there. Even if all your devices used usb-c, 4 ports aren't that many and having to always bring an adapter with you kind of defeats the purpose of a thin and light device; they might as well have made it 2mm thicker and added those ports.

 

Of course it's much worse for the "regular" macbook - one port is definitely not enough, especially when it also acts as charging port.

Have you tried Linux? You get the same unix-like benefits without being tied to Apple hardware

I don't know about Type-A or HDMI... I'd say the biggest improvement, and the most realistic, would be restoring the SD card reader.  Having to plug your camera in directly (or connect via WiFi) can be clunky.

[SenKa]

I'll give you a type A wouldn't hurt, but imo the only port I honestly miss on laptops that don't have it is ethernet. That is the one native port I would trade a couple of MM for. For data transfers between PC's I have Send Anywhere, if I really need a USB stick I have a little Sandisk Blade drive I could carry around with a slim Type A-C adapter. 4 ports isn't a ton if you say it like that, but reword it as every port being PCI-E 3.0 X4 it becomes much more. You can very easily carry one dongle that adds every port you could use. (Linus has a perfect example of this. IIRC it has 2 USB 3.0 Type A, Ethernet, SD card reader, and HDMI).

 

These may not be the most elegant seamless solution, and even if they're $20, that's $20 on top of a very expensive laptop. But, personally, I think the fact that 4 TB3 ports have so much more versatility than a "regular" IO layout is enough of a reason to use it. Just as with many things though, it is very much up to personal preference and I can totally understand why a lot of people don't like it. Hell, I had a classmate with a brand new MBP that nearly failed the class because she lost her Type C to A adapter on the day she had to present her assignment.

 

The Macbook is basically a netbook/chromebook. Everything is meant to be on the cloud. That doesn't justify it, it should have 2 at the minimum, but still. For what Apple intended it for it isn't a bad thing.

 

@Sauron LTT is having some serious bugs rn, so im just going to @ you. Lmao

[Drak3]

52 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

 given the undeniable versatility of the Thunderbolt 3 standard.

USB C is only versatile due to adapters, otherwise it’s a (crappy) solution in need of a problem.. TB3’s usefulness starts and stops with external RAID and eGPU. Video signalling over USB is nothing new, nor is daisy chaining devices.

[SenKa]

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

USB C is only versatile due to adapters, otherwise it’s a (crappy) solution in need of a problem.. TB3’s usefulness starts and stops with external RAID and eGPU. Video signalling over USB is nothing new, nor is daisy chaining devices.

My exact point was that USB C and TB3 are useful because of adapters. I can't speak to external RAID over TB3, because I haven't tested it or seen it tested.

 

EGPU's will never offer the same performance as a baked in dGPU, but with midrange GPUs it is more than adequate (RX580/GTX1070 and below)

[Sauron]

2 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

Hell, I had a classmate with a brand new MBP that nearly failed the class because she lost her Type C to A adapter on the day she had to present her assignment.

That sounds like something that could have been prevented with a little foresight but jokes aside it kind of goes to show that, while in theory you can make do perfectly with 4 TB ports, in practice it often becomes an annoyance if not a downright problem. Even having a VGA port is very convenient if you regularly use projectors... so while I don't advocate for Apple to include every port that might possibly be of use I think they should at least design their systems with a port selection that makes sense for their audience. For instance I know that a lot of photographers are pissed because they removed the sd card slot.

9 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

The Macbook is basically a netbook/chromebook. Everything is meant to be on the cloud. That doesn't justify it, it should have 2 at the minimum, but still. For what Apple intended it for it isn't a bad thing.

The macbook is 4 times more expensive than your average chromebook and there are cheaper, similarly (often better) specced laptops that have multiple ports, all without being thicker. E.g. the asus UX line. In fact, if everything is in the cloud and ports don't matter why not just buy Apple's own iPad pro? It's cheaper and more flexible (just by virtue of having a touch screen).

[SenKa]

Quote

in theory you can make do perfectly with 4 TB ports, in practice it often becomes an annoyance if not a downright problem. Even having a VGA port is very convenient if you regularly use projectors... so while I don't advocate for Apple to include every port that might possibly be of use I think they should at least design their systems with a port selection that makes sense for their audience. For instance I know that a lot of photographers are pissed because they removed the sd card slot.

I can't really argue with that. My specific example was of somebody who is incredibly forgetful and had just gotten the device, but I could very easily see where issues can arise if you aren't careful or thoughtful. I would very much miss the SD card if I used it on anything other than my traveling work laptop. I work on a lot of broken laptops, and its very possible in data recovery cases for the USB slots to be fried but the SD card reader to work since it has its own chipset and controller.

 

Quote

The macbook is 4 times more expensive than your average chromebook and there are cheaper, similarly (often better) specced laptops that have multiple ports, all without being thicker. E.g. the asus UX line. In fact, if everything is in the cloud and ports don't matter why not just buy Apple's own iPad pro? It's cheaper and more flexible (just by virtue of having a touch screen).

Precisely the issue with it as a device.

 

@Sauron

[Bouzoo]

2 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

that still doesn't mean everyone who buys them buys them for looks. 

Absolutely not for the looks alone. Generally I have never heard anyone arguing it's because of performance because there are better solutions, but it's usually high build quality, good battery life, stability and everything working outside of the box or living in Apple ecosystem. Those are the reasons my gf bought one, better to say why I picked her a MBP. If you do not mind the price, it's a good device, with its pros and cons. Like it or not, most people do not buy it for performance. Why? Most people don't care/need about performance. Don't forget, we're a niche. 

[bcredeur97]

you can't change the thermals in the Mac... so therefore it's slower

[GoldenLag]

34 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The macbook is 4 times more expensive than your average chromebook and there are cheaper, similarly (often better) specced laptops that have multiple ports, all without being thicker

There is allways the macbook "copy". Aka the Matebook line from huawei.

 

The X Pro being a very neat mix of ports.

[D13H4RD]

There are other laptops in a thin chassis that pack an 8950HK. However, Apple's also just happens to be one of the most inferior, mostly due to the laughably inadequate cooling system, which was just barely enough for a 7820HQ.

 

But that's not really my biggest issue with this generation of Mac. It's the keyboard. Best way to sum it up is a solution that no one asked for in search of a crippling failure point. 

[Nettly_]

3 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

that is a very bold statement.

 

I use a Mac because I like macOS. that's the only reason. I cannot live without it. and I certainly like a fast computer. 

Bold statement? Yes
One not from anger last night? no

[Nettly_]

I forgot I posted here tbh rip

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 hour ago, bcredeur97 said:

you can't change the thermals in the Mac... so therefore it's slower

you mean the fan curve? or what?

[Nettly_]

1 hour ago, bcredeur97 said:

you can't change the thermals in the Mac... so therefore it's slower

.... ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I am so confused.
1. How do thermals have to do with slowing it down? Elaborate for my dumb software mind
2. You can technically if you are talking about fans and stuff it IS possible just semi-painful (in my experience)
3. Same with thermal paste if you try hard enough
4. WOT!?

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, SafyreLyons-5LT said:

How do thermals have to do with slowing it down? Elaborate for my dumb software mind

Turbo boost is based off of heat and power draw, if the chip gets hot enough, it turbos less.

 

If it gets hot enough, a chip will lower its clockspeed below the base clock, this is thermal throttling.

 

 

Most Macs can’t maintain turbo speeds for long but will still not thermal throttle. Some may thermal throttle (like the i9 MacBook Pro 15” when it was first released).

[Nettly_]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Turbo boost is based off of heat and power draw, if the chip gets hot enough, it turbos less.

 

If it gets hot enough, a chip will lower its clockspeed below the base clock, this is thermal throttling.

 

 

Most Macs can’t maintain turbo speeds for long but will still not thermal throttle. Some may thermal throttle (like the i9 MacBook Pro 15” when it was first released).

Thank you, I genuinely was not thinking.... well am just dumb

[2FA]

8 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

1. Shrinking the die, as far as I am aware, reduces power consumption and ups efficiency.

2. Shrinking the die does not mean you have to cram more cores in there, to compensate. Because you haven't lost anything.

It does increase efficiency, but it also increases transistor density which affects heat output which as far as I'm aware does not scale linearly but I could be wrong on that, I'm not versed in thermodynamics.