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AlexTheGreatish

Why you shouldn't water cool your PC

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9 hours ago, bluesky_dolphin said:

1. In a way the comparison is unfair, -snip everything else-

not unfair at all. all products were "as is" out of the box, you wouldn't buy a 2 fan air cooler and pull one fan off (unless you didn't read the specs and cant fit the other fan because components are in the way)

 

For some reason a lot of people in this thread think it's unfair because of x y z, but like i said, out of the box is what they were testing, you can get drastically different numbers if you change things around, but then that's not the point of the video.

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9 hours ago, bluesky_dolphin said:

I'm reaching idle temps of around 12 degrees, and fan noise not even noticable to my ears. The CPU is a FX8350 Black Edition. This in a Fractal Design Define C case. The rad is top mounted, with a total of 4 120mm fans besides the one for the rad. Currently using Argus monitor to fine tune fan speed (and thus cooling/noise levels)

 

 

Your idle temps are not 12°C. The builtin temp sensor on FX chips only works above a certain threshold (in the 30-40s), and idle temps typically fall below their range. Also, the only way to get 12°C would be with ambient temps at 12 or (more likely) less.

Idle temps aren't a good way to test a cooler's performance. Only draw conclusions from temperatures under high, consistent loads for different coolers.

 

With all that in mind, a thick 120 AIO like the H80 or the Nepton XL will indeed cool any FX chip, and won't even need to get loud at stock speeds. Better or worse than some air coolers? I'd have to test each of them to tell.

Whenever one watches videos like this one, it's good to remember that there are all sort of prices, performances, and price/performance values for both air and water cooling.

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1 hour ago, Arika S said:

not unfair at all. all products were "as is" out of the box, you wouldn't buy a 2 fan air cooler and pull one fan off (unless you didn't read the specs and cant fit the other fan because components are in the way)

 

For some reason a lot of people in this thread think it's unfair because of x y z, but like i said, out of the box is what they were testing, you can get drastically different numbers if you change things around, but then that's not the point of the video. 

I think the issue I'm having with that is that the video should have been called "Corsair's (new) AIO vs. Noctua's top of the line air cooler" or some such. Because now with this (clickbait?) title the assumption is made that all air cooling is better than... Put a cheap Cooler Master air cooled fan against a Be Quiet! rad in there and I'm fairly sure the noise levels would be different for example.

 

I hope that is something they will improve upon, it does open the door to some interesting content.

 

Also it is mostly definitely worth to shop around with rads and fans. For example the rad I bought had a single fan that came with it (as opposed to a more expensive option with 2 fans included, same rad as far as I could tell). I already had one 120mm Be Quiet! fan suited for the purpose. I read in reviews that the fans that came with the rad were loud (and they are). So I bought the single fan version at about €35, and one extra fan at about €22. So total price for a recommended rad plus two good fans was about €55. This is cheaper or around the same price a Noctua air cooler (depending on the config). A dual  fan Noctua air cooler would cost about €77 (with 1x 120  mm, 1x 140 mm fan), $66 (with 2x 92mm fans), or €56 (with 1x 120mm fan, however the ones sold with a single fan that I can see are with a thinner cooler).

 

I hope my point is clear though, that there is a lot of room for set ups and price points, and this video is too general to make such a claim.

 

1 hour ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Your idle temps are not 12°C. The builtin temp sensor on FX chips only works above a certain threshold (in the 30-40s), and idle temps typically fall below their range. Also, the only way to get 12°C would be with ambient temps at 12 or (more likely) less.

Idle temps aren't a good way to test a cooler's performance. Only draw conclusions from temperatures under high, consistent loads for different coolers.

 

With all that in mind, a thick 120 AIO like the H80 or the Nepton XL will indeed cool any FX chip, and won't even need to get loud at stock speeds. Better or worse than some air coolers? I'd have to test each of them to tell.

Whenever one watches videos like this one, it's good to remember that there are all sort of prices, performances, and price/performance values for both air and water cooling. 

Interesting info, thank you, something to take into consideration.

 

I got the reading in HWmonitor for the 12°C, where it would rise and fall in temperatures, measuring along the way

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 4:23 PM, Enderman said:

Air coolers just don't look special at all,

i beg to differ

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I'd love to see the Cryorig H7 in such videos instead of (almost always) Noctua, since it fares in benchmarks and it is considerably cheaper most of the time

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Mount the radiator as an intake and it cools better than the air cooler. They should have included that in this test.

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20 minutes ago, JB780 said:

Mount the radiator as an intake and it cools better than the air cooler. They should have included that in this test.

As may top mounting it near an intake, and exhausting air out of the case possibly.

 

Dust management, air flow, cooling of other parts in the case may also be a point to consider. In that with mounting a rad instead of a giant air cooler the air flow through the case from other fans may not be obstructed as much. In other words air can possibly be directed much better to certain areas.

 

 

 

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Watercooling is not needed for CPU unless they have a TDP of 250W+ air can cool that no problem and Noctuas stuff is very good.

GPU is a different matter, overclocked high end AMD GPUs are 300W+ ALWAYS (less of an issue with Nvidia, due to larger dies and lower stock TDP). That's pushing it even with the best air cooler. Really high overclocks can be past 400W and with a small surface area Air just can't cut it. Even more so now that GPU dies are getting smaller, Radeon VII with power mods easily pulls 450W-500W and can't function at that power without custom watercooling.

 

I agree with those who say AIO is a waste of time and water is only for overclockers and tinkerers. I have always used air coolers on my CPU and until I have a problem with temps I will continue to do so.


Gaming Rig:CPU: Xeon E3-1230 v2¦RAM: 16GB DDR3 Balistix 1600Mhz¦MB: MSI Z77A-G43¦HDD: 480GB SSD, 3.5TB HDDs¦GPU: AMD Radeon VII¦PSU: FSP 700W¦Case: Carbide 300R

 

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2 hours ago, Madgemade said:

less of an issue with Nvidia, due to larger dies

AMD has the bigger die ever since Nvidia gets the efficiency advantage. I think it's Kepler on low end and mid range cards, Maxwell on all cards.

 

2 hours ago, Madgemade said:

That's pushing it even with the best air cooler. Really high overclocks can be past 400W and with a small surface area Air just can't cut it.

Raijintek Morpheus ii is not impressed

 

15 hours ago, Arika S said:

not unfair at all. all products were "as is" out of the box, you wouldn't buy a 2 fan air cooler and pull one fan off (unless you didn't read the specs and cant fit the other fan because components are in the way)

 

For some reason a lot of people in this thread think it's unfair because of x y z, but like i said, out of the box is what they were testing, you can get drastically different numbers if you change things around, but then that's not the point of the video.

Problem is they called it "why you shouldnt water cool your PC", challenging the concept of using liquid rather than the air for high heat output situations. For LMG's size I would have wanted at least 5 flagship models from both sides before they use names like that, but since they didnt I would expect them to use the best from both sides. But no, it's a mediocre AIO versus one of the most competitve air cooler. You can't just say "women run faster than men" by comparing a fat guy who never does any sport versus a female athelete right?


CPU: i7-2600K 4751MHz 1.44V (software) --> 1.47V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.3MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2203MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV SA undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (+80/+450, 1650MHz~1750MHz 0.78V~0.85V) RAM: 8+8GB DDR4-2400 18-17-17-39 2T Storage: 1TB HP EX920 PCIe x4 M.2 SSD + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172), 128GB Toshiba PCIe x2 M.2 SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) gone cooking externally Monitor: 1080p 126Hz IPS G-sync

 

Desktop benching:

Cinebench R15 Single thread:168 Multi-thread: 833 

SuperPi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.100s 1M: 8.255s 32M: 7m 45.93s

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21 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Problem is they called it "why you shouldnt water cool your PC", challenging the concept of using liquid rather than the air for high heat output situations. For LMG's size I would have wanted at least 5 flagship models from both sides before they use names like that, but since they didnt I would expect them to use the best from both sides. But no, it's a mediocre AIO versus one of the most competitve air cooler. You can't just say "women run faster than men" by comparing a fat guy who never does any sport versus a female athelete right?

Oh yeah the title is complete shit, but the content technically stays true to the intention

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9 hours ago, Jurrunio said:

AMD has the bigger die ever since Nvidia gets the efficiency advantage. I think it's Kepler on low end and mid range cards, Maxwell on all cards.

Kepler, Maxwell? those are antiques. Modern Nvidia GPUs have much bigger dies than AMD, but they still have the higher efficiency.

RTX 2060 Die Size is 445mm2RX 590 is 232mm2

RTX 2080 is 545mm2 Radeon VII is 3312 (including HBM2 which is not the main source of heat)

Bigger die area makes removing heat easier, helping Nvidia stay cooler.

Some Huge Air coolers are OK for Vega overclocked. But with Radeon VII you will not be able to get the same temps on Air as with a good water loop.


Gaming Rig:CPU: Xeon E3-1230 v2¦RAM: 16GB DDR3 Balistix 1600Mhz¦MB: MSI Z77A-G43¦HDD: 480GB SSD, 3.5TB HDDs¦GPU: AMD Radeon VII¦PSU: FSP 700W¦Case: Carbide 300R

 

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A bit off topic from the thread's current direction, but is there a video explaining the sound deadening LTT applied to the server room? Linus mentioned "as seen in our recent video", but unless he's referencing the 5 seconds of footage from the OC server video I can't seem to find one.

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7 hours ago, Madgemade said:

Radeon VII is 3312 (including HBM2 which is not the main source of heat) 

So are the Tensor cores and RT cores in  RTX Turing GPUs... Turing didnt improve nor worsen in manufacturing comparing to Pascal


CPU: i7-2600K 4751MHz 1.44V (software) --> 1.47V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.3MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2203MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV SA undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (+80/+450, 1650MHz~1750MHz 0.78V~0.85V) RAM: 8+8GB DDR4-2400 18-17-17-39 2T Storage: 1TB HP EX920 PCIe x4 M.2 SSD + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172), 128GB Toshiba PCIe x2 M.2 SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) gone cooking externally Monitor: 1080p 126Hz IPS G-sync

 

Desktop benching:

Cinebench R15 Single thread:168 Multi-thread: 833 

SuperPi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.100s 1M: 8.255s 32M: 7m 45.93s

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Posted · Original PosterOP
6 hours ago, AXELfrieman said:

A bit off topic from the thread's current direction, but is there a video explaining the sound deadening LTT applied to the server room? Linus mentioned "as seen in our recent video", but unless he's referencing the 5 seconds of footage from the OC server video I can't seem to find one.

It's in this video about the server room. 

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In the video it was stated that the AIO wasn't front mounted because of the noise. However this goes past the fact that some cases have sound dampening in the front and use air intakes.

 

Add a tunnel similar to a PSU shroud around the watercooler which guides the hot air out of the case, with sound dampening, and it could be quite neat. Might build a shroud like that to see how it works. One could even look at different tunnel configurations (e.g. length and angles) to have maximum sound dampening while maintaining a decent air flow.

 

@AlexTheGreatish

 

How do you feel about this, and some of the feedback in this thread, as it being too general a statement? Is this something at LTT you see yourselves exploring further? Would love to see some cool content on this.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, bluesky_dolphin said:

In the video it was stated that the AIO wasn't front mounted because of the noise. However this goes past the fact that some cases have sound dampening in the front and use air intakes.

 

Add a tunnel similar to a PSU shroud around the watercooler which guides the hot air out of the case, with sound dampening, and it could be quite neat. Might build a shroud like that to see how it works. One could even look at different tunnel configurations (e.g. length and angles) to have maximum sound dampening while maintaining a decent air flow.

 

@AlexTheGreatish

 

How do you feel about this, and some of the feedback in this thread, as it being too general a statement? Is this something at LTT you see yourselves exploring further? Would love to see some cool content on this.

Tbh that sounds like a lot of work for what is probably a very small difference in temps and probably would look rather unbecoming.  If it's in a closed case then go for it, but I think I'm just going to stick to using an air cooler haha

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Tbh, and I don't mean to come off too harsh, but find that a shame to hear. I would hope making such a bold statement about water cooling vs. air cooling there would have been more evidence based research.

 

I don't know if it would be unbecoming, it could be done rather nicely concerning a special duct for a radiator. Nonetheless, looking at alternate solutions like proposed in this thread will be left up to others.

 

It may be a lot of work to research that stuff, but that is better than the sloppy work delivered by LTT on this video.

 

 

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Hmmm, so I was doing some research on water cooling vs. air cooling,one of the first things that popped up was a video by LTT on this subject years ago in 2017, which covers several of the points brought up by forum members in this thread:

 

 

"It should then be noted that you can get slightly better performance out of these AIO's by adding more fans in a push pull configuration, the same could be said for the tower coolers"

 

The test was taken in a temperature controlled environment.

 

The results in the video are too close too call, depending on the setup.

 

It is interesting that once again only Corsair vs. Noctua were tested.

 

It appears that the "The Final Answer" is 'it depends'

 

And that wasn't even that much work to find... 😜 LOL

 

 

 

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Kinda regret buying water cooling for my new rig now.

 

Linus talked about it being hard to detect a faulty water pump.

How would I be able to detect it? Linus mentioned monitoring software.
So just keep an eye on the temperature and if it gets higher than usual it could be a faulty water pump?

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Hey,

 

I noticed a slight error in the video, in the comparing the AIO(360) to a Noctua (that Linus is holding)(7min 45sec) it shows the NH-U12S at 78C 34dB
chrome_2019-08-08_00-30-23.png

 

Yet in the charts and the recommendation it shows the figures for the NH-U12with the NH-U12S getting 81C/43dB (8min 15sec)\

chrome_2019-08-08_00-30-41.png

 

 

Just wanted to confirm it was the more expensive A that was the best performance.

 

 

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On 8/8/2019 at 5:59 AM, AlexTheGreatish said:

Yeah it's the U12A

 

I feel like a lot of your projects are baseless without actual wattage information, given air coolers dissipate heat a lot more efficiently until they can't dissipate the heat fast enough anymore which leads to a loop of increasing temperature.

 

Like.... what was the CPU used... at which wattage did it run...

 

I am really not trying to be offensive but the quality of your reviews has become very mediocre.

 

But you're not the only ones, considering many other "professional" outlets testing these coolers with their 4 year old CPU instead of picking something like an LGA2066 7980x or 9900K.

 

I guess this makes a lot more sense to me

 

That's a 7600k, not drawing much power and dissipating a moderate amount of heat. The 12A has more heat-pipes and therefore dissipates the heat better than it's bigger brother but you probably hadn't reached it's cooling potential.

index.png.a617fc51fe0ba9f566064d2349900e02.png

 

7980x...

 

index2.png.af6ce4b9d6801c2daa00c6effcef2665.png

 

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