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nicklmg

Macs are SLOWER than PCs. Here’s why.

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19 minutes ago, nerdslayer1 said:

Don't care too much about it, you're talking this video too personally. 

Your argument was a logical fallacy

 https://imgur.com/a/VhCDo9S- higher res link 

afe-fallacy.thumb.png.3d28c2044ec91f1545cbbe199a6e91af.png

jsut becuase it is a fallacy doesn't make his point invalid.

debate gang


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Just now, Firewrath9 said:

So if someone hates apple, you feel unwelcome?

no. i often have civil debates with @LukeSavenije about it and he really doesn't like Apple. 

 

I feel unwelcome when a community is constantly fed Apple hate, and mostly stuff other manufacturers do also, but those are not called out. 

when that happens a lot of Apple haters join the community. and at that point it becomes an echo chamber that makes most reasonable people either stop replying or leave. this forum hasn't reached that point yet but eventually it will go there. 

 

and I'm talking about it becoming a place where if you use Apple you will be called stupid for buying said product over a PC because Pc iS AlWaYs BeTtEr #PcMr!!11!1!

 

I'd rather have that not happen here because I really like this community. 


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silence. for me silence is key.

I use both windows notebooks at work and a 2013 mac book pro. Not for video editing - software development. The longer builds may take 20 minutes. usually around 2-7 mins. If you have render times of 20 minutes, 1 minute less with a lot of noise isn't worth it for me. I prefer the device to not sound like a leaf blower. Thats why I like the mac book pro more in those cases compared to windows machines that spin up fans way more. both hardware gets hot. And having a quiet notebook is better for my office neighbours too.

 

For me there are quite some tools around that move load away from my hardware (remote compile runs, distributed compile caches). So the notebook isn't really the main work horse.

 

I pretty much like the balance apple choses for their notebooks (heat, performance, noise). So in my opinion apple does what customers want.

 

Its true that I also see a lot of professional users move away from apple mac books - but the main reason here is not performance or temperature or unreliable hardware. its price and that windows oriented hardware got much better in the last years.

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10 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

no. i often have civil debates with @LukeSavenije about it and he really doesn't like Apple. 

can confirm both


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I feel like the point was kind of missed here... The point isn't "lol apple sux", it's "Apple has made deliberate decisions to prioritise certain things over the performance of their computers, to the detriment of the people who might actually want to use them for what they're typically advertised for." It was an investigation into the what, and speculation as to the why. We even said up front that Apple's not the only company guilty of this, but even ignoring the form factor vs performance debate, little things like their fan curves aren't helping, and it's been a major issue in the past where chips just got too hot on the board and the BGAs just let go.

 

I own one of those affected 2011 Macbook Pros, and I happen to really like macOS - The problem I have is that when I bought my Macbook, there wasn't anyone out there who had the combination of battery life, form factor, and performance Apple offered, and that's since changed dramatically (if you ignore the GPU overheating issue). Apple is quite obviously attempting to hang on to that "magical" middle-ground, and as a result they're sacrificing their actual performance levels to achieve that, but not in a way that laypeople would typically notice. As we said in the video, part of this is Intel's fault - Apple had this design on the books with the expectation that we'd be on 10nm by now, but that's been delayed and delayed and delayed. But they could at least make an attempt to not run the machines at the redline at all times...

 

The point being, Apple could have largely defanged this critique quite easily with a more aggressive fan curve... But the fans take about a minute to hit maximum speed while the die temperature is hot enough to boil water, and the Core i9 Macbook Pro's launch fiasco proved that they don't have the overhead to ramp the fans up that slowly. That kind of thermal performance is straight-up unacceptable, especially for a professional machine.

 

So TL;DR, what I hope to accomplish with this is to get Apple to rethink their thermal solution, even if it's ramping the fans up sooner. The cooler on the Macbook Pro in particular is tiny, and the only way I can see them expect the machine to survive long-term is if it's rarely hit with a sustained load. Apple has been and in many ways still is better than that (see: iPhone), and unless they want to lose that image, this needs to change. Maybe it'll take a move to the A-series ARM processors. If you recall, there were similar issues with thermal performance and processing performance with the later PowerPC processors, and IBM couldn't hit the targets Apple wanted... Kinda feels the same this time around with Intel, don't you think?


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3 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

You know what, these are facts. And I can't argue with facts. 

That's why I want Anthony to be doing all Mac reviews from now on. The man knows his stuff and can do a unbiased review which is always a good thing :) 

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1 hour ago, firelighter487 said:

why do you keep doing these video's? for views? money? satisfying the large portion of your audience who hate Apple more than anything else? it would really like an answer because as an Apple user I'm starting to get pretty pissed off. 

 

I would like LMG to do more to prevent unnecessary anti-apple content like this to keep apple users from feeling unwelcome here. because that's what I'm experiencing. I love this community but I'm starting to feel increasingly more unwelcome here because I use Apple products. 

I don't see really see LMG themselves being anti-Apple bias to be honest. Yes, some videos they make are pointing out a few negative stuff about how the manufacture handles things, and I have to agree with them. The only thing I can't speak of is the community themselves, as it's kind of mixed really.  But keep in mind that not everyone has pure hatred for Apple. I myself like their operating system, just not their hardware because of the pricing. 

 

And for the record, whether you like or dislike Apple, I can say for certain you are welcome here to express your views so long you don't start to act childish or whatever. 


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Oh boy I'm going into the deep end here but only because it was Anthony's review and it was perfect - no more of that 'PC guy perspective' crap!

 
First of all the 'pro' is just a nomenclature and it has been since they decided to call a 13" 'pro' - it can't be Pro if it doesn't have dedicated graphics period.
Second it was always Apple's (Job's?) philosophy to have low to no noise and they have ran into MANY issues in the past because of that the main failure in my book being the G4 Cube which is absolutely stunning and could've been a proper computer if it had a couple fans in there.
 
Which leads us to another couple of things:
A) they want to boast their hardware as powerful, silent and with longer lasting batteries in the market. They can - and did - achieve all of that but not at the same time as it was demonstrated in this video. It can have the most powerful CPU out there but it just won't be quiet when it tries not to thermal throttle and batteries won't last longer if the laptop is using all its potential so they 'trick' it to behave as showed;
B) yes most Apple users don't care mostly because they are using it for web browsing and (misplaced) bragging rights. The ones that do care are the ones who have been complaining for YEARS about Apple having their pro-sumers left out since the last iteration of the Mac Pro before the infamous trash-can. And why would Apple give a sh*t if computers are no longer its major source of revenue but their phones…?
 
And that brings me to my conclusion: Steve Jobs was in no way a good human being nor was he always right (I just mentioned his mistake with the G4 Cube) but having one person to centralise the company's vision was what made Apple different and desirable back then - warts and all.
Now it's just another corporation and it is doing what any corporation would do: profit above all. Sales are dropping? Increase the prices and lower the quality.
And the thing is Jony Ive is still there so the machines are still being built with the most elegant and beautiful design available in the market so people continue to buy it if anything for its looks and social 'status'.
 
Meanwhile I'm still rocking my iPhone 6S and only recently replaced my 2011 iMac with the 2015 model (for the 5K display alone) and can't see myself buying anything from 2015 onwards because it's all… corporation crap…
 
PS: to anyone interested Google Apple evangelization. It was a thing about 20 years ago and boy it paid of…
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1 hour ago, firelighter487 said:

why do you keep doing these video's? for views? money? satisfying the large portion of your audience who hate Apple more than anything else? it would really like an answer because as an Apple user I'm starting to get pretty pissed off. 

I would agree 100% with you about their 'PC perspective' crappy videos. But since Anthony started to do the writing it did got VERY unbiased and I can't get mad at that - that would be fanboy behaviour.

As to answer your questions:

1) they review tech, Apple is a tech company, of course they would make these videos;

2) yes of course for views and money! This is a business and LMG have to pay their employees plus Linus already said anything with 'Apple' in the title gets more views so as long as it is unbiased what's the problem…?

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1 minute ago, caincha said:

But since Anthony started to do the writing it did got VERY unbiased and I can't get mad at that - that would be fanboy behaviour.

Anthony helped with the linux content. I'm not sure if he does anything for the Apple video's. 

 

2 minutes ago, caincha said:

they review tech, Apple is a tech company, of course they would make these videos;

this is not a review. 

 

2 minutes ago, caincha said:

yes of course for views and money! This is a business and LMG have to pay their employees plus Linus already said anything with 'Apple' in the title gets more views so as long as it is unbiased what's the problem…?

they also run the forum and if they make it an echo chamber that causes people to leave that would hurt their business too. 


She/Her pls :) 

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7 minutes ago, Master Delta Chief said:

I don't see really see LMG themselves being anti-Apple bias to be honest. 

But they are. I've seen many of them saying how crappy such and such smartphone is but the alternative would be to buy a iPhone so nah, stay with the crappy ones.

Luke is the most Apple-hater of them all and it shows in any WAN show that has Apple as a topic…

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11 minutes ago, Master Delta Chief said:

But keep in mind that not everyone has pure hatred for Apple. I myself like their operating system, just not their hardware because of the pricing. 

I understand that but video's like this kinda put fuel on the fire if you know what I mean. 

 

11 minutes ago, Master Delta Chief said:

And for the record, whether you like or dislike Apple, I can say for certain you are welcome here to express your views

thanks for that :) 


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1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

Anthony helped with the linux content. I'm not sure if he does anything for the Apple video's. 

 

this is not a review. 

Anthony wrote the video - it's in the credits.

No it's not a review my mistake - thanks.

 

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1 minute ago, caincha said:

Anthony wrote the video - it's in the credits.

that's kinda disappointing... I really liked the recent Linux content that he also wrote iirc. 


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33 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

We even said up front that Apple's not the only company guilty of this

Oh you mean the 1 sentence where linus said "Most laptops will thermal throttle" then continued to ignore that fact for the rest of the video? Yeah... ok. Definitely unbiased /s

 

33 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

sacrificing their actual performance levels to achieve that, but not in a way that laypeople would typically notice

DING DING DING. Wanna take a guess at who makes up the greatest marketshare for apple computers? Laypeople.... For the VERY large majority of people, mac computers will work perfectly find and NEVER throttle. What do you want apple to do? Downclock the turbo speeds so that it thermal throttles... later? So the layperson would experience a slower computer overall? Sounds like a dumb idea. 

 

33 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

But they could at least make an attempt to not run the machines at the redline at all times...

Anybody who wants to use their mac for any serious work knows about Mac Fan Control or SMCFanControl. Sure, mac doesn't provide you a way to change the fan curves by default... but does windows? Nope. Most often it's the Mobo manufacturer's software or even in the bios. Imagine if Mac users had to go into the bios to change their fan speeds, linus would have a field day.

 

33 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

and the only way I can see them expect the machine to survive long-term is if it's rarely hit with a sustained load.

You mean... their expected usage case? Wow, who woulda thought...

 

Apple is CLEARLY making computers for the layperson and non-tech savvy among us. It sucks for us hardcore fans, sure, but we are the minority when it comes to buying their computers. 

 

This video was in NO WAY unbiased. If it were there would have been at LEAST A SINGLE COMPARISON TO A SIMILAR WINDOWS COMPUTER. But no, there wasn't. Because the result would have been the same and then they couldn't have painted apple in this bad light and wouldn't have been able to put such a clickbaity title on the video. 

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24 minutes ago, caincha said:

I would agree 100% with you about their 'PC perspective' crappy videos. But since Anthony started to do the writing it did got VERY unbiased and I can't get mad at that - that would be fanboy behaviour.

As to answer your questions:

1) they review tech, Apple is a tech company, of course they would make these videos;

2) yes of course for views and money! This is a business and LMG have to pay their employees plus Linus already said anything with 'Apple' in the title gets more views so as long as it is unbiased what's the problem…?

The problem is that they are never unbiased. They use the apple hate to gain views, and unfairly judge the computers without making any decent comparisons. Did you see any other manufacturer's computer in this video doing the same tests? No, you did not. 

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1 hour ago, Firewrath9 said:

can someone give me a TL:DR?

Summary: Laptops in general thermal throttle when under a sustained 100% load. Apple has tuned their machines to be very good with short bursts of activity, and they throttle a bit quicker than other similar laptops (although no comparisons were made.) Then linus went on a big rant about the downsides of thermal throttling like it was a uniquely apple problem. 

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1 hour ago, Firewrath9 said:

So if someone hates apple, you feel unwelcome? Didn't he say he liked the 2019 imac?

well this is a PC forum, go to reddit.com/r/apple or whatever?

 

The main reasons me and some otheres dislike apple (not saying its useless, have an imac 2017, very sexy screen)

1: Upgradeablity.

2: Overpriced

3: Weird warranty practices

4: lying to customers (batterygate)

 

Their software is nice, unlike adobe is a one time buy w/ updates, I like iOS, and I like their free OS upgrades, but now MS allows that too...

1. Ok sure, you've got that one, some of the soldered shit was bad, but again, apple is building their computers for the layperson, not the computer savvy. 

2. The video itself shows that they really aren't.

3. ??? Are you talking about the iMac pro stuff? I saw that as more of a "this is a brand new computer and we haven't shipped out replacement parts yet."

4. As if other companies have never lied to customers hahahahahaha folding phone hahahahahaha

 

1 out of your 4 reasons is acceptable. The rest can be said for any pre-built computer company. 

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55 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

I own one of those affected 2011 Macbook Pros

you can fix that to just use the Intel card and completely ignore the dead AMD card. it involves using Linux to change an EFI variable.

 

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/force-2011-macbook-pro-8-2-with-failed-amd-gpu-to-always-use-intel-integrated-gpu-efi-variable-fix.2037591/

 

just have a look at that. it might fix your MacBook Pro. I have a 2011 as well and it fixed mine. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, GabenJr said:

We even said up front that Apple's not the only company guilty of this

do you make a video about all the other company's doing it too? no of course you don't. until you do I will keep calling you out on it. 

 

*by you I mean LMG as a whole, not Anthony personally*


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53 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

that's kinda disappointing... I really liked the recent Linux content that he also wrote iirc. 

Why would it be disappointing? The guy is doing a good job what's the problem…?

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1 minute ago, caincha said:

Why would it be disappointing? The guy is doing a good job what's the problem…?

because I hated one particular part of this video. the "apple users care more about looks than performance"... that was really disappointing to hear. 


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18 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

you can fix that to just use the Intel card and completely ignore the dead AMD card. it involves using Linux to change an EFI variable.

That's overly complicated and unnecessary.

 

Get a USB with MacOS installer and plug it in.

Press Option key at boot, Position the mouse on the MacOS installer icon.

 

Press Command + S and keep holding these two keys.

 

Click the MacOS installer icon -> continue holding the Command + S keys until you finish the MacOS installer Single User boot 

 

nvram fa4ce28d-b62f-4c99-9cc3-6815686e30f9:gpu-power-prefs=%01%00%00%00

reboot

 

It will boot using the integrated graphics. Once there you can run this patch by dosdude1 - make sure you got SIS disabled though.

http://dosdude1.com/apps/MacBook Pro dGPU Disabler.zip

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3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

because I hated one particular part of this video. the "apple users care more about looks than performance"... that was really disappointing to hear. 

He was talking about the majority of users and yes the majority of them do care more about the looks and the 'status' of having a Mac/Apple iThing…

If you and I are different that doesn't change the facts unfortunately…

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4 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

because I hated one particular part of this video. the "apple users care more about looks than performance"... that was really disappointing to hear. 

Eh, how can you be 'disappointed' with the truth? 


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