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Muhammad Tajy

An Open Letter to Linus Tech Tips from The Passthrough Post

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17 hours ago, suits said:

But the whining other people are doing on this post is almost just as bad.

As is the amount of people that defend them every single time because they post a video per day. Every. Single. Time. But that's why LMG has so many employees.

This is also about just going "we don't give a crap on what we do" when someone reaches out to you. Talk about being professional. 


The ability to google properly is a skill of its own. 

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This whole thing is silly from my point of view.  From both sides.

 

1.)  This was obviously a “look what what’s possible” video, not a step by step DIY with explanations.   Thinking otherwise is on you.

2.)  It was also 100% obvious this undertaking sends you super deep into the weeds.  Of course there will be snags... iirc, they even hit a few in the video and glossed over them quickly.  You’ll need a strong stomach for such an operation.

 

then on the other side...

 

Get a grip and deal with a few more people trying to get support... I mean you offered it, right?

 

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The TL;DR here is I'd like to interact more with the community, but as Linus said, proactively trying to reach out to people in the OSS community is a bit of a crap shoot, and in this case, the original article fashioned itself as a tutorial in the first place. All I did, really, was validate it and adapt what didn't work (like the sample XML).

 

Since we do have more content with this topic in the pipeline, I may reach out to them if only to see what they have to say. Some of their criticisms are valid, some less so, and in any case, we don't have an hour of runtime to go over all the pitfalls and caveats people might run into while trying it at home.

 

I think the only thing that I take offence to in all this is the use of the word "misinformation", which really is a misuse of the word. The only thing that could conceivably be called misinformation in the video was the title, and even that's not true, practically speaking (SSE 4.2 has been around since Nehalem!).


Anthony @ LINUS MEDIA GROUP             

I'm a handsome man with a charming personality. - Gabe Newell

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After reading many stuff posted in this thread, I think there's some stuff you can do with these kind of stuff moving forward that involves guides made by someone else on the internet about untested technology :

  1. Put experiment in the title somewhere
  2. Put a disclaimer in the video like what some people here have said

As for this specific situation, IMHO. Make a follow-up video where you address the (like what Anthony have said) valid criticism from the passthrough post's blog post and for technical details you may have missed in the original video.

You've done this before with the Mac Pro repair process video where you address the many criticism from the apple community. Which coincidentally also talking about Apple and was written by Anthony as well.

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On 4/29/2019 at 8:29 PM, dalekphalm said:

There's so many assumptions rolled into this, I'm not even sure how I feel about it.

 

First, you're assuming that Mac users are comfortable with Linux... Some (a very very small segment) perhaps are. The vast majority are not. Most Mac users have probably never even opened Terminal before.

I said anyone who would consider running OSX in a VM.  The kind of user you described wouldn't know what a VM was. 

 

Quote

Second, you're assuming the only people who would be interested in this kind of setup are already Linux users. That's another assumption I would challenge. There are plenty of Windows or Windows + Mac users who might want to try this kind of setup out (for various reasons - one being "for fun"). They might even be fairly proficient Windows users that have no experience on Linux.

Most people who know about things like VM's and hackintoshing are likely familliar with Unix/Linux.  They know it exist and have a good idea of how to use it. 

 

Quote

 

LMG has never been industry experts. Anyone who thinks so is frankly just wrong. But they've also never claimed to be experts. And that's okay. They don't need anyone's permission to do this video. They also don't need to be experts.

 

Could there be improvements? Especially with some sort of "We're not experts, your mileage may vary" disclaimer? Sure. But there's constructive feedback, and there's being an elitist dickhead.

 

And I definitely see both going on here.

They are experts.  You need to compare them not to people with a PhD in computer science... freaking creating images of black holes and stuff.  Compare them to the average person on the street.  You know.. the kind of person who see's a Mac or Linux desktop and is like "Wow what version of Windows is that!?"  (I will ignore the elitist comment. It is simply a fact that most people, "normies" don't know or care about how their devices work.)

 

That was important.  Part of the letter writers issue was that the LTT video brought on them  a wave of users who didn't know what they were doing, who tried exactly what they saw in the video.  Hopefully they will keep in mind the level of computer knowledge of the average person when making their videos.  Warning people that they can really seriously bjork their computer would be a good idea.. that is just IMHO. 

Edited by Uttamattamakin
Wanted to clarify something.
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9 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I said anyone who would consider running OSX in a VM.  The kind of user you described wouldn't know what a VM was.

Your first sentence implied that. But the follow up sentence didn't mention VM's at all, it simply mentioned users who wanted to use macOS but didn't want to buy a mac. That could be a wide range of users.

9 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Most people who know about things like VM's and hackintoshing are likely familliar with Unix/Linux.  They know it exist and have a good idea of how to use it. 

Citation needed. That's one hell of an assumption. I know about VM's and hackintoshing, and while I have some training on Linux, that guide definitely goes above my knowledge level. And there are definitely people who might be interested in trying this that have far less experience with Linux than I do.

9 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

They are experts.  You need to compare them not to people with a PhD in computer science... freaking creating images of black holes and stuff.  Compare them to the average person on the street.  You know.. the kind of person who see's a Mac or Linux desktop and is like "Wow what version of Windows is that!?"  (I will ignore the elitist comment. It is simply a fact that most people, "normies" don't know or care about how their devices work.)

Experts in what, exactly? They're production experts in making media. Linus and Luke are computer enthusiasts. They're Windows Power Users to be sure.

 

They are not experts. Most especially in VM's, nor Linux, nor macOS. You MIGHT be able to argue that they're Experts in Windows Desktop (as in, not server variants) - but that's about as far as that could go.

 

Comparing a power user to an average user doesn't make the power user an expert, it just makes them a more knowledgeable user.

9 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That was important.  Part of the letter writers issue was that the LTT video brought on them  a wave of users who didn't know what they were doing, who tried exactly what they saw in the video.  Hopefully they will keep in mind the level of computer knowledge of the average person when making their videos.  Warning people that they can really seriously bjork their computer would be a good idea.. that is just IMHO. 

I have no problem with them adding in a "We're not experts, don't try this at home unless you know what you're doing" kind of disclaimer. I said that already earlier in the thread.

 

But Linus and co still did nothing wrong here. At worst, they made a bad call on how a small segment of the audience would react to the video. They could make improvements, but anyone can always make improvements, so you can't exactly use that as an argument that what they did was somehow wrong.


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12 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

They are experts. 

Yeah, no. I am gonna say this from the top of my head, but I could swear in the last 6-7 years or so Linus said at least 3 or 4 times in videos they're not experts. Do I remember which videos? Absolutely not. Linus did say thought multiple times they could hire a pro, you know, an actual expert for server/networking but that they won't. 

Depending on the area, they are very experienced. I could argue Brandon is an expert in filming, Taran is an expert in Adobe (Premiere I think) and Vegas Pro but that's it. 


The ability to google properly is a skill of its own. 

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6 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

Yeah, no. I am gonna say this from the top of my head, but I could swear in the last 6-7 years or so Linus said at least 3 or 4 times in videos they're not experts. Do I remember which videos? Absolutely not. Linus did say thought multiple times they could hire a pro, you know, an actual expert for server/networking bit that they won't. 

Depending on the area, they are very experienced. I could argue Brandon is an expert in filming, Taran is an expert in Adobe (Premiere I think) and Vegas Pro but that's it. 

Agreed. That's why I pointed out earlier that you could call them experts in media production. They do a DAMN good job with the production values and the process of creating a video from start to finish (With the only area perhaps somewhat lacking is... of course, expertise in the area the video is about).

 

Anyone who comes to LTT for expert advice is simply in the wrong place. They make entertainment videos first. They try to educate when they can, but they're not experts in VM's, or Linux, or macOS, or Servers, or Enterprise equipment, or on most of the things they do videos on.

 

Want experts? Watch GamersNexus or Level1techs.


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16 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Want experts? Watch GamersNexus or Level1techs.

Or my favorite, wants actual details? Read written articles. No one is reading them. Sadly GN afaik doesn't have a lot of them, they do on big launches though, but read Anandtech, PcPer, GSMarena, just to name a few. Everyone wants expertise but no one wants to put more than 10 min of time into watching material. And off topic again. 


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16 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

Or my favorite, wants actual details? Read written articles. No one is reading them. Sadly GN afaik doesn't have a lot of them, they do on big launches though, but read Anandtech, PcPer, GSMarena, just to name a few. Everyone wants expertise but no one wants to put more than 10 min of time into watching material. And off topic again. 

Most people can't be assed to read articles anymore. Even on here, with News topics, we often get people commenting "Is there a video I can watch instead?" when the source is a text article.

 

GN likely only does the big launches because it's a terrible return on investment for them.


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On 4/28/2019 at 10:40 AM, colonel_mortis said:

The other side of that coin is that trying to run software on hardware that it doesn't support is not a simple point-and-click thing. It is not currently at the stage where it is supposed to be used by Joe Mac Content Creator.

 

You managed to get it working on your hardware, mostly, after what I presume was a significant time investment from Anthony, but as the open letter points out, you missed a few details, and there were issues with the guides that you were following too. If Anthony cannot follow the guide correctly, and ends up kludging his way through, perhaps that is a sign that this technology is not ready for prime time yet.

 

Most people won't email them to let them know that they are going to use it, but as someone making a guide that will get 1.8M views it might be worth making sure you are doing things right, so that the other people don't have to. If you're making the guide for people who don't know how to use bash, you should be sure that your guide will definitely work and not require them to go down that very deep rabbit hole.

 

I am not saying that you shouldn't make this type of video—I enjoy them, and I am all for encouraging more use of Linux. What I am saying is that I don't think it's fair to blame an experimental and unstable technology for not being user-friendly yet, and that making a user-friendly guide for technology like that is not going to be as simple as following a tutorial aimed at more experienced users.

This! I personally thought the response from linus above was.... disgusting. It's very clear to me that their software/workarounds aren't ready for the general public yet. They make no effort to make the procedures accessible to the layman. It is VERY CLEARLY STATED IN THE TUTORIAL ALL OF THESE PRECURSORS:

Quote
  • This guide assumes that you already have set up a GPU pass-through virtual machine in the past and have experience with QEMU and libvirt, no support/steps will be given in the Hackintosh-KVM guide for setting up QEMU/libvirt for GPU pass-through, networking, CPU pinning, etc. If you need help with setting that up, refer to the The Passthrough POST Discord server.
  • This guide has only been tested with Ryzen CPUs. Your mileage may vary when using a Intel CPU (though we don’t expect any issues.) We encourage our readers to help contribute their experiences with Intel hosts, so this guide can be updated as appropriate.
  • The author also recommends that the initial setup to be done via GPU pass-through for ease of installation, as other display methods may or may not work(QXL,vmwvga,etc).
  • Clover is only to be used as it’s needed for the various tweaks within this guide. We will not supporting the Enoch or any other bootloader at any time during the Hackintosh-KVM guide.
  • We recommend using the OVMF files from the Hackintosh-KVM repo. We also recommend using recent versions of the kernel, libvirt, and QEMU. This is not guaranteed to work on versions older what was tested at the time this article was written.
  • For older or patched versions of QEMU and other applications, refer to kholia’s guide on github for additional patching/procedures.
  • We recommend using LVM or a standard image file(.img) to achieve the best I/O performance possible, using a .qcow2 image file with QEMU’s emulated SATA controller leads to rather abysmal performance in our testing. ZFS vdevs can also be used, but this has not been tested at the time of this write-up for disk I/O performance, although they should perform fine.
  • The author also recommends setting the CPU governor to performance and/or use a QEMU hook to ensure that the virtual machine is at its utmost performance. The xml file from the Hackintosh-KVM repository contains arguments for PulseAudio and evdev pass-through. If you plan to use this, you will want to make sure that evdev and PulseAudio pass-through are set up and working correctly beforehand.
  • We will be using the iMac18,3 SMBIOS with Clover as other versions of Macintosh’s include Thunderbolt 3 firmware, which upon update, will corrupt OVMF’s nvram, thus making the virtual machine unbootable.

 

Complaining about not knowing how to do those things is a bit pedantic.... isn't it? So yeah, was the video cool? Sure. Was it misleading? Yes. Was the response from the passthrough people reasonable? Very much so. 

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2 hours ago, corrado33 said:

This! I personally thought the response from linus above was.... disgusting. It's very clear to me that their software/workarounds aren't ready for the general public yet. They make no effort to make the procedures accessible to the layman. It is VERY CLEARLY STATED IN THE TUTORIAL ALL OF THESE PRECURSORS:

 

Complaining about not knowing how to do those things is a bit pedantic.... isn't it? So yeah, was the video cool? Sure. Was it misleading? Yes. Was the response from the passthrough people reasonable? Very much so. 

 

I'll disagree. It's one thing to put a guide on the internet that "everyone" can do, it's another to put a guide that only a small handful of people do, and is really not an exhaustive guide at all.  

 

Remember when Linux was a thing people discovered back in... oh 1996? Trying to get Linux to work on a whitebox PC back then is just as challenging as getting OS X to work on a whitebox PC now, only two things have changed in the last 10 years, UEFI is standard, and optical drives are not. There is no legal means of making a whitebox PC distro for OSX that will work on a whitebox machine, VM or not. The conditions upon which one might be able to get away with running OSX is very very narrow:

 

Legal:

Apple-branded Mac, iMac, Macbook and MacPro's

OSX Server on Apple hardware

OSX Server Virtualized on Apple hardware

 

Quasi-legal (relies on first-sale doctrine):

You can transfer your OSX installation from a working Mac to another device that looks like a Mac to the OS.

You can run OSX under a VM to recover a machine where the original hardware has ceased to work.

 

Not Legal:

Downloading OSX from Apple to a non-Apple machine

Downloading OSX from a third party to a non-Apple machine.

 

If you don't have an Apple machine, you aren't entitled to run OSX. You can however run the underlying Darwin parts, and that's pretty much where all this hackintosh stuff comes from. 

 

The guide further narrows that down to people who already have installed QEMU correctly, and are using a Ryzen CPU. How many users run QEMU on their main machine? Probably close-to-zero. 

 

I'm sure if the guide didn't exist, Linus and Co would not have even bothered to try it at all. They likely tried it because they had hardware that matched the guide and people who do this for fun enough around to figure it out. It's not meant to go "hey boys and girls, wanna run osx on your expensive gaming rig instead of your macmini/macbook air?"

 

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21 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Most people can't be assed (sic) to read articles anymore. Even on here, with News topics, we often get people commenting "Is there a video I can watch instead?" when the source is a text article.

 

GN likely only does the big launches because it's a terrible return on investment for them.

That gets at my point.    You are comparing them to GN and Level 1 Techs and such.   For this discussion you need to compare Linus and his company to the average schmo.   Compared to the average person they are experts.    In fact the greatest sign of real expertise is not thinking one is a know it all expert and being willing to admit how and where they could be wrong OR how new evidence could change their views. 

 

In fact if someone calls themselves an expert, will not listen to or consider what other people say at all,  and no one else would that is probably the Dunning Kreuger effect. 

 


The flip side of that effect is that when people are actually experts they are aware of all the ways they could be wrong and so doubt themselves.  A related effect is when people have expertise they are unable to understand that the average person does not know what they know. 

 

If LTT is guilty of anything in this... it is not realizing how much they know that the average person watching them does not know. 

 

Quote

The guide further narrows that down to people who already have installed QEMU correctly, and are using a Ryzen CPU. How many users run QEMU on their main machine? Probably close-to-zero. 

Kisai, exactly.  Power users are the only ones who would be set up to and able to attempt this.  Further most people have no clue what virtualization is.  

 

But, of course, many posters here being of a certain level of knowledge will commit the knowledgeable persons mistake of assuming the average person knows what they know. 

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7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That gets at my point.    You are comparing them to GN and Level 1 Techs and such.   For this discussion you need to compare Linus and his company to the average schmo.   Compared to the average person they are experts.    In fact the greatest sign of real expertise is not thinking one is a know it all expert and being willing to admit how and where they could be wrong OR how new evidence could change their views.

I reject your premise and substitute my own. By your argument, I'd be an expert at photography because I happen to know a few tricks with operating manual settings on a DSLR.

 

That would be a false premise. I'm not an expert at photography, despite the fact that I know more than the average person about how to operate a camera.

 

This isn't black and white. It isn't "Either you're a clueless idiot, or you're an expert". And if your entire argument is based on that, I'm sorry to tell you it's not a valid argument.

 

LMG are not tech experts. They are not experts at VM's, despite knowing more than the average user. They're not experts on Servers (Oh god, far from it), despite knowing more than the average user. And they're definitely not experts on Linux.

 

Level1techs and GN are experts in their respective fields.

 

7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

 In fact if someone calls themselves an expert, will not listen to or consider what other people say at all,  and no one else would that is probably the Dunning Kreuger effect.

There's a difference between being an actual expert, and claiming you're one when you're not. Linus and co are not experts in pretty much anything besides running an excellent and kickass production company. Oh, Linus is probably an expert in painting though, but that's not exactly relevant.

7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

 

You're using reverse logic. Yes, ignorant people often claim to be experts. But that doesn't automagically make people who don't claim to be experts, experts.

 

7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

The flip side of that effect is that when people are actually experts they are aware of all the ways they could be wrong and so doubt themselves.  A related effect is when people have expertise they are unable to understand that the average person does not know what they know. 

 

If LTT is guilty of anything in this... it is not realizing how much they know that the average person watching them does not know. 

 

Kisai, exactly.  Power users are the only ones who would be set up to and able to attempt this.  Further most people have no clue what virtualization is.  

Power users are not automatically Linux experts. I'm a pretty high level Windows Power User (I better be, since I'm a SysAdmin and an IT Tech), but my Linux skills are limited. I can get by, but I know I'm not an expert. I know my limitations. Wendell would run circles around me before I even got the Shell open.

7 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

But, of course, many posters here being of a certain level of knowledge will commit the knowledgeable persons mistake of assuming the average person knows what they know. 

The average person doesn't know pretty much anything about tech.


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All I see are a handful of embarrassed elitist wannabes getting their knickers bunched up.     I am so glad I was born before the internet and social media was a thing.   I couldn't imagine how bad it would be thinking the whole world is going to end if someone thinks your work is shit or isn't absolutely 100% concisely presented with precision execution.  


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

All I see are a handful of embarrassed elitist wannabes getting their knickers bunched up.     I am so glad I was born before the internet and social media was a thing.   I couldn't imagine how bad it would be thinking the whole world is going to end if someone thinks your work is shit or isn't absolutely 100% concisely presented with precision execution.  

Passthrough: *Writes guide on highly technical thing to do, and says that you need prior knowledge on some things*

LTT: *Makes video where they get some things wrong*

Passthrough: "Hey LTT, we liked your video but here are some things you got wrong and why. Feel free to contact us if you want more help!"

LTT: "Your guide is ass and terrible. You're so elitistic and stuck up."

You: "Wow those elitists wannabes sure are embarrased by how they acted!"

 

The only one who should be embarrassed here is Linus for how rudely he acted when Passthrough reached out and offered help in a kind and caring way.

Saying "hey you got these things wrong. Want some help with it?" is not elitistic. It's trying to be helpful in a professional manner. 

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6 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Passthrough: *Writes guide on highly technical thing to do, and says that you need prior knowledge on some things*

LTT: *Makes video where they get some things wrong*

Passthrough: "Hey LTT, we liked your video but here are some things you got wrong and why. Feel free to contact us if you want more help!"

LTT: "Your guide is ass and terrible. You're so elitistic and stuck up."

You: "Wow those elitists wannabes sure are embarrased by how they acted!"

 

The only one who should be embarrassed here is Linus for how rudely he acted when Passthrough reached out and offered help in a kind and caring way.

 

Why?  I think you assume I am only talking about passthrough.   

The world isn't going to end and when people can't get their shit to work it doesn't matter who they blame.   


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Why?  I think you assume I am only talking about passthrough.   

The world isn't going to end and when people can't get their shit to work it doesn't matter who they blame.   

You never specified who you were talking about so I assumed passthrough, and possibly people like me who has pointed out how poorly Linus has acted here.

Or maybe you were referring to someone else with your post?

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5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

You never specified who you were talking about so I assumed passthrough, and possibly people like me who has pointed out how poorly Linus has acted here.

Or maybe you were referring to someone else with your post?

everyone generally, I see this whole thing as an example of people investing too much time in how they look, how someone else looks, or just joining the lets bash community or person because I don't like them and this is a reason.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

everyone generally, I see this whole thing as an example of people investing too much time in how they look, how someone else looks, or just joining the lets bash community or person because I don't like them and this is a reason. 

Not sure I agree.

I think Passthrough spent a lot of time here because they wanted to appear respectful towards Linus, but also correct some of the misinformation or bad advice that was being spread. If you write a guide on something, and then someone else copies it, but puts in poor advice here and there, wouldn't you want to correct that and explain? Imagine if Linus made a video where he said "we followed mr moose advice on how to take care of children. So first, we should not vaccinate them. We had trouble with them screaming so we are skipping that". Wouldn't you go "hold on there, that's bad advice"?

 

I certainly don't think Linus invested too much time in how he looked. If anything, he acted like a total asshole and insulted lots of people, even those whose work he profits from. I think Linus deserves shit for how he acted here so that he hopefully learns a lesson and don't do it again.

 

And for this community, I think that has to be decided on a per individual level.

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Can we like stop pointing fingers and instead focus on voicing on our opinion as to how Linus could do better next time? If we're just looking at who's guilty, there'll be no ends to this.

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5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Passthrough: *Writes guide on highly technical thing to do, and says that you need prior knowledge on some things*

LTT: *Makes video where they get some things wrong*

Passthrough: "Hey LTT, we liked your video but here are some things you got wrong and why. Feel free to contact us if you want more help!"

LTT: "Your guide is ass and terrible. You're so elitistic and stuck up."

You: "Wow those elitists wannabes sure are embarrased by how they acted!"

 

The only one who should be embarrassed here is Linus for how rudely he acted when Passthrough reached out and offered help in a kind and caring way.

Saying "hey you got these things wrong. Want some help with it?" is not elitistic. It's trying to be helpful in a professional manner. 

Except that’s not what happened. They didn’t just say “hey guys you got some things wrong. We are here if you’d like to talk about working out the kinks!”

 

The problem is they said “you *should* have contacted us”, and then listed a bunch of problems about helping people. 

 

If they did exactly what you said and no more, I don’t think Linus would have had any issue with that. 

 

But since they didn’t, we’ll never know. 


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[FS] [CAD] Various things

 

 

* Intel i7-4770K * ASRock Z97 Anniversary * 16GB RAM * 750w Seasonic Modular PSU *

* Crucial M4 128GB SSD (Primary) * Hitachi 500GB HDD (Secondary) *

* Gigabyte HD 7950 WF3 * SATA Blu-Ray Writer * Logitech g710+ * Windows 10 Pro x64 *

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 3:23 AM, lacion said:

it looks like that "open letter" is just a cry for attention. nothing else. 

 

also, the expectation that in order to make good use of an OSS project one needs to get in contact with the creator? that is the total opposite of what open source is.

 

I saw the video on floatplane and all I have to say it 100% reflects the use of a guide like that for a normal user. I dabble in projects like this from time to time, and some times I just find a guide and roll with it, most people don't have days or weeks to research all the content of the internet to find the "right" or "perfect" step by step guide.

 

I totally hate it when the Linux community get angry when something is absolutely horrible to find. information is very outdated in some places and finding the right guide or documentation is very time consuming some times.

Not everyone knows how to write strong documentation. Perhaps it would of been better to reach out and comment on this and attempt to help documentation where needed? This is not a Linux specific issue, I have seen horrendous documentation by Microsoft on many of their products. Maybe people should stop looking for the "Right" or "Perfect" step by step guide and learn the product they are working with.

You can copy from Stackoverflow all the time as a programmer, but eventually there comes a time when you need to actually understand what you are copying and how that code works...

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11 hours ago, ThePD said:

Not everyone knows how to write strong documentation. Perhaps it would of been better to reach out and comment on this and attempt to help documentation where needed? This is not a Linux specific issue, I have seen horrendous documentation by Microsoft on many of their products. Maybe people should stop looking for the "Right" or "Perfect" step by step guide and learn the product they are working with.

You can copy from Stackoverflow all the time as a programmer, but eventually there comes a time when you need to actually understand what you are copying and how that code works...

no matter how you want to spin it for your convenience. 

 

this is one of the biggest issues of all OSS projects. I already do my share of documentation on all the project I contribute to. 

 

but even so bad docs is not the issue in itself, the issue is considering how things are. the "open letter" is absurd.

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8 hours ago, lacion said:

no matter how you want to spin it for your convenience. 

 

this is one of the biggest issues of all OSS projects. I already do my share of documentation on all the project I contribute to. 

 

but even so bad docs is not the issue in itself, the issue is considering how things are. the "open letter" is absurd.

I don't understand how I "Spun" it for my convenience. It is a fact, especially in the IT world that there are instances of poor documentation. It happens.

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