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D13H4RD

Tim Sweeney to Steam: Don't want timed-exclusives? Match our revenue split

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4 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

That's been a complaint for a while now.  Origin, UPlay, etc; people have griped for some time now about multiple clients.

I still don't get the complaints about it all now

4 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

The outrage isn't about that, though.  It's about exclusivity deals.

Meh, I can't be bothered about exclusivity deals anymore. As long as the game doesn't end up being shit in terms of gameplay and riddled with microtransactions, I'll either buy it at launch or just wait. Exclusivity shouldn't be a thing but that's the world we live in.


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Whats really annoying and publishers devs really do not understand that if you have friend that has game other store platform how you gonna be able to group up play against each other friendlist aren't exactly cross store platform at the moment either, this is why most stick to steam it has everything and more, if Epic wants any chance or other store platforms they have to keep this in mind, this is't much of an issue on uplay as any game you own on steam hs intergrated with uplay anyway, but once the epic games go from being exclusive this gonna be an issue most likely as you gonna have friends on either store platform, this is bloody annoying, dividing consumers is the last thing PC needs.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Prince said:

Whats really annoying and publishers devs really do not understand that if you have friend that has game other store platform how you gonna be able to group up play against each other friendlist aren't exactly cross store platform at the moment either, this is why most stick to steam it has everything and more, if Epic wants any chance or other store platforms they have to keep this in mind, this is't much of an issue on uplay as any game you own on steam hs intergrated with uplay anyway, but once the epic games go from being exclusive this gonna be an issue most likely as you gonna have friends on either store platform, this is bloody annoying, dividing consumers is the last thing PC needs.

Heads up, that is apparently not devs fault but platforms. Meaning you can't for instance play Dying Light in co op on Steam and GOG. I remember reading that there was a possibility but Steam blocked it. Would need to found that article.


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1 hour ago, Jito463 said:

Sorry, which company did Valve sign a contract* with which obligates them to publish only on Steam?

 

Go ahead, I'll wait while you look it up.

 

*hint: there isn't one

 

And, how do you know there isn't one?  Were you there during every contract signing for the past 10+ years?


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1 minute ago, Bouzoo said:

Heads up, that is apparently not devs fault but platforms. Meaning you can't for instance play Dying Light in co op on Steam and GOG. I remember reading that there was a possibility but Steam blocked it. Would need to found that article.

 

Wow if that is true then steam is anti consumer to 😑

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Just now, valdyrgramr said:

And, how do you know there isn't one?  Were you there during every contract signing for the past 10+ years?

So, you expect me to prove a negative?  You don't understand how to form a proper argument, it seems.  One does not prove a negative, one can only prove an affirmative.  Ergo, you would need to prove anyone has signed a contract with Valve, instead of claiming I need to prove that no one has.

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33 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

Citation needed. 

 

Considering that the game is coming out in 5 months, and everyone can get refunds way before that. If they were to refund all backers, they would still have money in the bank. I really wonder where that money came from. 

"Game Financing". Or Business Lines of Credit. :)

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18 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

So, you expect me to prove a negative?  You don't understand how to form a proper argument, it seems.  One does not prove a negative, one can only prove an affirmative.  Ergo, you would need to prove anyone has signed a contract with Valve, instead of claiming I need to prove that no one has.

I never even stated that Gaben forced anyone to make it an exclusive, you did.  I said there were exclusives on Steam.  So, nice argument there aka putting words into my mouth.  :D  Secondly, Tim isn't forcing people to have exclusives on his platform.  At best they're timed exclusives unlike on Steam where there are several games only on that launcher and probably not moving, especially for PC.  I have yet to find a launcher other than Steam where I can play Tekken 7 on PC.  That would make it exclusive to Steam on PC.  So, why doesn't the guy I was quoting bitch about that?

"Bitch at Gaben every time there is an exclusive in some form on Steam then." -My argument.  Where did I say Gaben was forcing anyone to do it?  Oh right, I didn't.  :D 


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16 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

"Game Financing". Or Business Lines of Credit. :)

So you're saying that Phoenix Point devs/publishers got a credit of $2M+. I can't find any source or indication for that. Not a single hidden or anonymous source from any news outlet anywhere for any EGS exclusive game, and I am pretty sure it would have came from somewhere all things considered. 

 

Meanwhile:

 


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16 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I never even stated that Gaben forced anyone to make it an exclusive, you did.

Epic never forced anyone either, but they did lay the groundwork for publishers to sign exclusivity contracts.  Valve never did, and in fact has gone on record stating the opposite.  However, you did heavily imply Valve ("Gaben", as you put it) was responsible for publishers/developers who only sell on Steam.

9 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

Exclusives have been a thing before the EGS, ***** at Gaben every time there is an exclusive in some form on Steam then.

If you weren't implying blame, why even mention complaining to Valve (which, by the way, people have done anyway)?

16 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I said there were exclusives on Steam.

And you said to complain to "Gaben", which implies that he's responsible for those titles being exclusive.

16 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

So, nice argument there aka putting words into my mouth.

Not putting words in your mouth, just reading between the lines.

16 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Secondly, Tim isn't forcing people to have exclusives on his platform.

I already addressed that, and I never made the claim he has.  Nice job putting words in my mouth.

16 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

At best they're timed exclusives unlike on Steam where there are several games only on that launcher and probably not moving, especially for PC.

Again, that's at the publisher/developer's discretion.  Valve was not involved in that decision, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

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25 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Epic never forced anyone either, but they did lay the groundwork for publishers to sign exclusivity contracts.  Valve never did, and in fact has gone on record stating the opposite.  However, you did heavily imply Valve ("Gaben", as you put it) was responsible for publishers/developers who only sell on Steam.

If you weren't implying blame, why even mention complaining to Valve (which, by the way, people have done anyway)?

And you said to complain to "Gaben", which implies that he's responsible for those titles being exclusive.

Not putting words in your mouth, just reading between the lines.

I already addressed that, and I never made the claim he has.  Nice job putting words in my mouth.

 

Again, that's at the publisher/developer's discretion.  Valve was not involved in that decision, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Well, so does Sony and various other companies.

That wasn't the point.  I was asking the guy to got bitch at Gaben if a publisher decided to have an exclusive in some form on that platform because he was being irrational over exclusives being on Tim's platform and putting sole blame on Tim and his platform.  Yet, he doesn't wanna blame the publishers nor the developers.  He doesn't want to yell at any other launcher platform or console platform that has exclusives.  But, Tim isn't forcing long term exclusive deals either they're timed exclusives and up to the publisher if they wanna push to the other platform.  If it's only going to be on the EGS from that point then that's literally on the publisher.

You asked me this, "

Sorry, which company did Valve sign a contract* with which obligates them to publish only on Steam?

  

Go ahead, I'll wait while you look it up.

 

*hint: there isn't one."
^Again, never stated this you randomly jumped into an argument late and then started acting like I was implying something I wasn't.  Then continue to force that narrative and put words into my mouth.  Again, I was asking him to be irrational with his yelling to everyone that owns a platform with exclusives.  Tekken 7 can only be launched through Steam for the PC version.  That makes it exclusive to Steam for PC.  Why doesn't he bitch about that too aka my point since he wants to be irrational with an exclusive argument?

I am aware of that.  However, the guy I was quoting has a vendetta against Tim and Epic, and puts sole blame on Tm and Epic aka why I was asking him to bitch at Gaben if someone like Namco pushed Tekken 7, for example, only to Steam on pc.  Since he only wants to yell at the head and their company for shit like that.  I wasn't implying that Gaben was forcing a contract for that, but using their argument against them. e.e

Let me make this clear.  I'm arguing against a guy who hates exclusives then blames only Tim and Epic for that if it's related to Epic.  He won't blame the publisher/developer for that at all.


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16 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Tekken 7 can only be launched through Steam for the PC version.  That makes it exclusive to Steam for PC.

That is a good argument though. If we are brutally honest here, PC as a platform has by far most exclusives and with that Steam as a separate platform out of all platforms has by far the most exclusives. While I do not believe Valve ever paid anyone for exclusivity, they really don't need to. I blame publishers for the current situation. They just love that sweet sweet Steam DRM. If they didn't care they would publish on GOG as well since it's by far the most gamer friendly platform, but you know, no DRM suits very few of them. 


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2 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

That is a good argument though. If we are brutally honest here, PC as a platform has by far most exclusives and with that Steam as a separate platform out of all platforms has by far the most exclusives. While I do not believe Valve never paid anyone for exclusivity, they really don't need to. I blame publishers for the current situation. They just love that sweet sweet Steam DRM. If they didn't care they would publish on GOG as well since it's by far the most gamer friendly platform, but you know, no DRM suits very few of them. 

Ya, Gabe isn't forcing exclusives either.  That was solely on Namco who published it there only.  I was just asking the guy to blame Gaben since he only wants to blame Tim for timed exclusives on the EGS rather than blaming a publisher for that.  Aka who you should blame.  Nobody is forcing people into a contract for long term exclusive bs outside of maybe Sony.  Tim might be asking them to do a short term thing, but long term exclusives are usually on the publisher.


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1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ya, Gabe isn't forcing exclusives either.  That was solely on Namco who published it there only.  I was just asking the guy to blame Gaben since he only wants to blame Tim for timed exclusives on the EGS rather than blaming a publisher for that.  Aka who you should blame.  Nobody is forcing people into a contract for long term exclusive bs outside of maybe Sony.  Tim might be asking them to do a short term thing, but long term exclusives are usually on the publisher.

No I mean I was saying in general with T7 as an example. 

Consoles on the other hand imo are a different story since they literally depend on exclusives to sell consoles, i.e. Sony (afaik) paying for the rights for the game before it even starts developing and not mid development. We will see that with Death Stranding though. Also Nintendo fucking us over with Bayonetta 2 & 3. But that is for a different discussion.


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20 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

No I mean I was saying in general with T7 as an example. 

Consoles on the other hand imo are a different story since they literally depend on exclusives to sell consoles, i.e. Sony (afaik) paying for the rights for the game before it even starts developing and not mid development. We will see that with Death Stranding though. Also Nintendo fucking us over with Bayonetta 2 & 3. But that is for a different discussion.

I'm aware of that I was just adding that Gabe wasn't actually forcing an exclusive contract on that, but the problem is that a lot of publishers are following what they think will get them the most money when it comes to PC at least.  I think Namco doesn't really see much money on another launcher, so they're only going to publish a game like that to Steam.  But, at the same time, that does make it exclusive to said launcher.  I think it's the same with the Senran Kaguara games and quite a few others.

 

The one that pissed me off the most was with what they did with Devil's Third and Itagaki.  Basically, THQ had gone under back in 2010 and Itagaki was making Devil's Third for PS3/360.  Nintendo bought the game as an exclusive for the Wii U.  The game itself isn't horrible, but when they forced him to redev it in a short period of time for the Wii U the controls ended up being horrible ruining the game.  It was only functional because Itagaki is one of those overly skilled developers, but not even he could get good controls on the Wii U.  Plat had similar issues with Bayonetta and that's by 2 of the guys who created DMC.  The Bayonetta games are so much better on the Switch than on the dev nightmare that was the Wii U.  


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1 hour ago, Bouzoo said:

That is a good argument though. If we are brutally honest here, PC as a platform has by far most exclusives and with that Steam as a separate platform out of all platforms has by far the most exclusives. While I do not believe Valve ever paid anyone for exclusivity, they really don't need to. I blame publishers for the current situation. They just love that sweet sweet Steam DRM. If they didn't care they would publish on GOG as well since it's by far the most gamer friendly platform, but you know, no DRM suits very few of them.

I think it’s a terrible argument. Steam’s just a storefront. You can sell your game through them and any other storefront you want to. Steam doesn’t require you to sign exclusive or timed exclusive contracts with them to be sold on their store. The only issue would be if steam blocked cross play between them and say GOG as someone mentioned but didn’t seem sure of. The only actual exclusives on steam are their own first party games which is expected. 

 

Steam has the most games because they are the biggest store. They are also at or near the top with features for people selling and buying on their store. Had Epic competed with a better store they wouldn’t be getting this backlash. Instead they are pushing a shitty store with exclusive games they bought.


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18 minutes ago, Bensemus said:

I think it’s a terrible argument. Steam’s just a storefront. You can sell your game through them and any other storefront you want to. Steam doesn’t require you to sign exclusive or timed exclusive contracts with them to be sold on their store. The only issue would be if steam blocked cross play between them and say GOG as someone mentioned but didn’t seem sure of. The only actual exclusives on steam are their own first party games which is expected. 

 

Steam has the most games because they are the biggest store. They are also at or near the top with features for people selling and buying on their store. Had Epic competed with a better store they wouldn’t be getting this backlash. Instead they are pushing a shitty store with exclusive games they bought.

I'm only aware of Sony and Nintendo forcing perm exclusives, though.  As for Epic they're only doing timed, and from there it's up to the publisher.  If a publisher never ports it after that time point then that's on the publisher.  Just like on Steam if a publisher won't push it to another launcher that's solely on the publisher.  But, Valve didn't really have to force anyone to do that either because they've operated for 10+ years as something similar to monopoly on PC.  So, it's kinda hard for other launchers with stores to compete on their level which is probably the reason for the timed exclusives on the EGS. 


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33 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'm only aware of Sony and Nintendo forcing perm exclusives, though.  As for Epic they're only doing timed, and from there it's up to the publisher.  If a publisher never ports it after that time point then that's on the publisher.  Just like on Steam if a publisher won't push it to another launcher that's solely on the publisher.  But, Valve didn't really have to force anyone to do that either because they've operated for 10+ years as something similar to monopoly on PC.  So, it's kinda hard for other launchers with stores to compete on their level which is probably the reason for the timed exclusives on the EGS. 

Console exclusivity is kind of different topic where all Sony, MS and Nintendo basicly don't force exclusivity but make the same move as Epic and give offers developers/publishers can't refuse (MS and Sony give out at least free dev kits without wait times (both give out free dev kits but the waiting times differenciate between months to years depending on your project and you can shorten them by buying the dev kits you need) also they offer reduced or even free patch time (at least on X360 publishing a patch would have costed $40k, so a year of free time to patch is quite a good deal) and probably reduced pricing on age rating and localization (check) costs and reduced insurance pays (for the case that the game gets the platform into legal troubles) (IIRC knuckle rule is around $100k/region + insurance costs which depend on your game, GTA-like probably millions, My Little Ponies -like probably tens of thousands)). Funny thing is, all console manufacturers advertise free developing on their console and Unity and Unreal can both build games natively for every console, the catch is you cannot run those builds without dev kit console/account or jailbreaking a console to allow running homebrews (so basicly you cannot test your game).

[In the case of publishing costs Steam has been the wild west of gaming platforms, you don't need to pay them a cent for all those regional costs and insurances, you don't even need to officially age rate your game, just slap R18 sticker to it and press publish and Valve doesn't care.]

 

Phoenix Point is probably quite a good example for what kind of offers Epic is giving out. Being able to be profitable and release teh game even if they need to refund the whole Kickstarter could mean that Epic is at least paying them the amount that they gained from the Kickstarter. That is one hell of a deal when you count in that probably majority of backers don't demand refund. IIRC Satisfactory has some same spices in it's story, it was orginally thought to be Steam game with pre-orders and stuff, but Epic jumped in and gave Coffee Stain some offer and it was good enough for them to make the game exclusive for EGS.

 

I see the exclusive deals as a very bad thing because if they are successfull with them, they may spread and we can welcome the whole shitload of console-like crap to PC (how "This game works only with Nvidia GPUs"-sticker sounds? or "you need Intel CPU for this game"? or even "you cannot run this game while [launcher X] is running/installed"?). I'm more conserned about how anti-consumer and pro-publisher/developer EGS is. Regional pricing is coming, but it's completely optional. Developer/publisher is 100% in control of reviews and other user generated feedback/content (I bet there's a lot of devs/publishers who will misuse that to the hell and back and remove every single negative comment/review to get "100% positive" rating). The whole partnership bullshit where devs/publishers can actually give content creators percentage from the sales generated by them (makes IGN look like a baby in matter of paid reviews). They are also not really rushing with their return policies. Sugar on the top is that the EGS adds payment method costs to the game prices while Valve takes the hit (like if I wouldn't have PayPal I would use Paysafecard in the net, with Steam I wouldn't pay anymore than what the game costs but EGS adds some percentage payment method cost to the game price). And I can only hope those things don't spread...

 

Also it's kind of funny how other PC "platforms" have succeeded without any paid timed exclusive (appart from their own games). Like if Steam was that huge you need to have paid exclusives to compete, how the fuck GOG is still a thing? Shouldn't that be one huge smoldering pile of ash with it's complete anti-publisher standing with no-DRM, taking 30% cut from the sales and apparently even taxing developers for hosting the files and money handling (for that they do give free technical support with their APIs and can even help with making the old games run on modern OSes)... Hell, they should really be a very cold corpse by now when quite many publishers even bundle their games with free goodies (manual, wallpapers, soundtrack etc) on GOG even if they get paid less than on Steam. Like wasn't the sales cut the main point of EGS being better and Steam being bad and then we have GOG still in the books of living 😱

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56 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

 

Games on GOG only sells well due to the paranoia/the annoyance of DRMs in the first place, and they just so happen to offer a DRMless platform.  I'm not defending EGS I'm just saying why they're probably doing it.  You either need exclusives to compete with Steam to a degree, or you need to offer something like a DRMless aspects.

Remember all the bs that EA/Origin pulled?  They're still there too, but neither GOG nor Origin are competing on the same level as Steam.  Steam has way more games than either platform, they have more games exclusive to their platform, and they generally make more money than both probably combined.

Personally, I'd rather have 0 launchers and have physical copies instead.


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9 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'm only aware of Sony and Nintendo forcing perm exclusives, though.  As for Epic they're only doing timed, and from there it's up to the publisher.  If a publisher never ports it after that time point then that's on the publisher.  Just like on Steam if a publisher won't push it to another launcher that's solely on the publisher.  But, Valve didn't really have to force anyone to do that either because they've operated for 10+ years as something similar to monopoly on PC.  So, it's kinda hard for other launchers with stores to compete on their level which is probably the reason for the timed exclusives on the EGS.

Epic could have competed on store features. Instead they offer almost nothing. Besides the big games were advertised to be on Steam, Metro was even up for preorder, and then suddenly went to Epic. Currently they are all slated for release back onto Steam when the exclusive period ends. No one would care if these games were just sold on Epic. It’s that Epic paid to take them away from Steam and force users to use a worse store. Hell people who managed to pre-order Metro were able to pre-download it on Steam. Those that bought it on Epic couldn’t as Epic doesn’t have that feature. Epic isn’t bringing anything good to the PC for consumers. If they were they wouldn’t be getting this kind of backlash. 


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6 minutes ago, Bensemus said:

Epic could have competed on store features. Instead they offer almost nothing. Besides the big games were advertised to be on Steam, Metro was even up for preorder, and then suddenly went to Epic. Currently they are all slated for release back onto Steam when the exclusive period ends. No one would care if these games were just sold on Epic. It’s that Epic paid to take them away from Steam and force users to use a worse store. Hell people who managed to pre-order Metro were able to pre-download it on Steam. Those that bought it on Epic couldn’t as Epic doesn’t have that feature. Epic isn’t bringing anything good to the PC for consumers. If they were they wouldn’t be getting this kind of backlash. 

That still wouldn't exactly put them on Steam's level, though . They'd still be a lot smaller than Steam.  I don't have a problem with people being angry at Epic.  My bigger issue is irrational bitching without blaming the publishers and developers of these games too.  The only appeal Epic has to me is Unreal, the game, as I play that and Quake Champions plus playing Borderlands 3 early.  I personally hate every launcher, including Steam, and all the DRM bs.  GOG has more of the right idea, but I prefer physically owning PC games.


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Any game dev who is going to choose epic and refuse to launch on steam (even for a time period) is only doing so because EPIC dangled a big arse carrot.  It's not hard to see that Epic have to resort to such things because they don't have the market reach or services that steam have.  

 

A Dev has to choose between a juicy carrot from Epic and market share after launch.  To be honest I can't blame them for that when access to steams market share is no guarantee of success.


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13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Any game dev who is going to choose epic and refuse to launch on steam (even for a time period) is only doing so because EPIC dangled a big arse carrot.  It's not hard to see that Epic have to resort to such things because they don't have the market reach or services that steam have.  

 

A Dev has to choose between a juicy carrot from Epic and market share after launch.  To be honest I can't blame them for that when access to steams market share is no guarantee of success.

Exactly, and people forget these are businesses and not their friends.  Most businesses will do shit you don't like for money.  This is just one example of it.  The last target was Origin, and yet people let that go when this became a thing which is what I find funny.  How many people do you see as a collective bitching over Origin?  Hell, iirc Origin recently had a malware problem and where was the mob over that?  Oh right, they're here!  I wonder who the next target is.  XD

However, the publishers and developers are still equally at fault over this if they agree to it.  So, I'd still blame them if people want to yell over this sorta thing.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
32 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Any game dev who is going to choose epic and refuse to launch on steam (even for a time period) is only doing so because EPIC dangled a big arse carrot.  It's not hard to see that Epic have to resort to such things because they don't have the market reach or services that steam have.  

 

A Dev has to choose between a juicy carrot from Epic and market share after launch.  To be honest I can't blame them for that when access to steams market share is no guarantee of success.

Pretty much. 

 

I very much doubt this is going to end anytime soon. 


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17 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

However, the publishers and developers are still equally at fault over this if they agree to it.  So, I'd still blame them if people want to yell over this sorta thing.

giphy.gif

 

It's really as simple as I can't be arsed to deal with another storefront and platform so anything exclusive, timed or otherwise, I'm just not buying. If I don't actually care I bet publishers care even less than I do, unless zero people are buying all you really have is what I have, laziness 🙂.

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