Single, Unemployed Better "Gamers”

[Trixanity]

@Sauron

Just realized you haven't a clue about the pro scene in CSGO. None of the players you linked have played a single tier 1, tier 2 or even tier 3 tournament to win a trophy. They don't have the skill level to qualify. They've tried though. They can beat some amateur teams in preliminary qualifications but that's it. The thing is you can make money and play full time as a female ranked number 1 in the world (among female teams) but be outskilled by a rank 200 team who can't make more than chump change at best. That's the whole problem. They're playing full time (it's their job) and yet they're not even getting close to people who work full time and play as a hobby. On the flip side there are plenty of pros who are talented enough and are known to slack with the practicing who can play remarkably few hours and still maintain a top 20 (team-wise) level.

 

Again: these female teams are getting absolutely wrecked by amateur teams.

 

Women aren't discouraged at all. If they want to get anywhere within gaming they'll do it. Like anyone else you'll have to work for it. Many women especially on the talent side bust their ass to get where they are and they've gone on record to that effect; they're not looking for hand-outs. They want to be the best in their field. In fact I recently listened to a podcast between two female talents that talked about the work. It's not any different for players. The mindset is the same.

 

There is a growing number of players that are female and many spent their days playing just as any male would so it should be just a matter of time (I'd say that sentiment would have been true for at least the last five years).

 

As for the truth of my claim: it's evident in that they don't exist. Male top tier players exist and a handful of transgenders. You're basically saying there is a God despite no evidence there is one and that I can't prove that there isn't one. Likewise I can only show you that the type of player you desperately want to exist simply doesn't. Your best bet so far have been pro players that are pro based on their gender and relative skill in relation to that; not absolute skill which is what I'm talking about. Remember pro players are pro based on their marketability. A male player that can do top 300 is not marketable because who the fuck cares? A girl who can hang in the top 300 but is the best among females that you can market. 

 

With the amount of women playing competitively and the amount doing it full time and the amount getting paid to do so there simply isn't a readily apparent reason that you don't see them at the top. I'm not buying into your gender identity politics though. There aren't anyone holding anyone back here. There is no glass ceiling or whatever rhetoric you wish to employ. Competitive gaming is a toxic cesspool regardless of who you are. I've been there. Many have. If you can't compete because of a harsh environment, then competitive activities in general probably aren't for you. While it shouldn't be like that, it's just how it ends up being considering all the horror stories you hear. 

 

What I do like though other than your subscription to gender identity politics is that you're still caught up in the semantics regarding "can" vs "do"? Who the hell does that for any other reason than pedantry? All because I added to the conversation how the gender distribution is in the top scenes of esports appears. You can't refute that and you admit to as much. Your argument against is that muscles don't matter which is true but a banality. That's your argument regarding the biology aspect. What I'm saying is that you haven't come up with something to explain the difference because it isn't muscles, it isn't gatekeeping, it isn't a glass ceiling and it isn't a lack of interest. That's why I'm asking what it is then because I can't explain it and neither can you because no one studies this and probably no one will. There simply isn't any data for or against other than that which I brought up which is top female players are unicorns. So either unicorns don't exist or someone is sawing off their horns. Which coincidentally might just be what those transgender players may have done. Perhaps unicorns are in fact exclusively male. That would explain a lot. 

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, Trixanity said:

-

So I take it you don't intend to actually back up the statement I contested (color me surprised). Suits me, as far as I'm concerned this discussion is over; I've made my point.

 

I may know nothing about csgo, but it really doesn't matter here; I asked you multiple times to provide a shred of proof of what you were claiming, yet you clearly can't.

4 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

What I do like though other than your subscription to gender identity politics is that you're still caught up in the semantics regarding "can" vs "do"?

What I like is that you'd rather go on a tangent about religion and unicorns than admit that you have no ground to stand on with the comment I contested.

[ravenshrike]

11 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Besides, while some are endlessly bitching how games are sexist and whatnot, games are really the most fair competitive stuff between genders because physical differences that are in favor of males in real sports disappear in digital games. It's all down to your reflexes and thinking.

Men are faster at spatial reasoning at the top end. There's a reason you don't get female F1 drivers. Not better, women can get to the same result men can in any spatial reasoning problem, but they are noticeably slower at it.

[dalekphalm]

36 minutes ago, 7Hertz said:

Sorry but it is a fact just like the story of these females.

 

 

 

Gender politics needs balance.

What?

 

You: "All important discoveries were done by men!"

 

Me: "Here's a list of... *counts* twenty-two (micro edit: actually thirty-one, if we count the 9 coding languages invented by women) different women who invented, discovered, or pioneered incredibly important things, backed up with sources."

 

You: "Sorry but it's a fact!"

 

I say again - What? Your response literally makes zero sense. Did you even read my post, or did you just see a long list of women and skip it all?

 

Gender politics has fuck-all to do with our discussion. You made a demonstratively false claim, I corrected you, with sources, and you reply with "But facts!" - as if that actually means something?

[dalekphalm]

16 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

Men are faster at spatial reasoning at the top end.

Source? Not that I'm saying your claim is incorrect - there are some subtle (and not so subtle) biological differences between men and women, but that's a pretty massive claim, and it needs backing.

16 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

There's a reason you don't get female F1 drivers. Not better, women can get to the same result men can in any spatial reasoning problem, but they are noticeably slower at it.

What's the reason? I'll happily concede the point if there's peer reviewed data backing up this claim.

[Sauron]

8 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What's the reason? I'll happily concede the point if there's peer reviewed data backing up this claim.

Just chiming in to say that F1 driving is very much a physically intensive sport - even just the G forces on some turns are more than many people can handle without losing control.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, Sauron said:

Just chiming in to say that F1 driving is very much a physically intensive sport - even just the G forces on some turns are more than many people can handle without losing control.

Sure, but that's not the reason he gave. He said that men were better at "spatial reasoning". No mention at all of the physical intensities of racing.

 

Your argument would actually make sense. His didn't.

[Majinhoju]

45 minutes ago, aezakmi said:

they're not bad, it's just EVERY SINGLE online game has a shit and toxic shit playerbase so they most girls stay away and play singleplayer games

I agree.

My wife and I would play the exact same games and she would be the one getting creepy and offensive message at the end of the round from angry players.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, yian88 said:

Please i see this everywhere, pointless comparison between women and men when they are slightly better at something.

You could find 10000 things men are better at than women but i wont and we shouldnt care.

Both men and women can do the same things just as good if they dedicate themselves to it, except physical activities and sports.

Men and women do think differently due to biology yes, which makes us have very different personalities and interests but as i said if both men and women tried hard enough they would be almost equal at any task.

I don't think it's pointless. These studies highlight where there is a lack of women representation - nothing more should really be gained from this data, but it can be promotional to highlight these statistics. Women do not think differently, but their thinking is affected differently in small ways. 

4 hours ago, yian88 said:

Would you enjoy to see tons of threads starting with "men are way better than women at...", i dont want to see that because its pointless and generates conflict between men and women like feminists like to do. 

Thats fair, and why I changed the title. 

[Trixanity]

32 minutes ago, Sauron said:

So I take it you don't intend to actually back up the statement I contested (color me surprised). Suits me, as far as I'm concerned this discussion is over; I've made my point.

 

I may know nothing about csgo, but it really doesn't matter here; I asked you multiple times to provide a shred of proof of what you were claiming, yet you clearly can't.

What I like is that you'd rather go on a tangent about religion and unicorns than admit that you have no ground to stand on with the comment I contested.

Yes, it was over before it started because you know nothing of the subject you're trying to discuss with someone who has been following the exact subject discussed (admittedly on/off) for over a decade. You're asking me to prove something does not exist. Obviously I cannot link you material on things that do not exist. That's why I asked for evidence that it does exist which you cannot. I can only prove for example that the female with the highest earnings is a male-to-female transgender. That's not by a little. It's by a fucking lot. It's not even close. Earnings aren't necessarily a good measure of skill though because you don't have to be the best to make money as it's about marketability first and foremost.

 

Here's your evidence by the way.

This means I've so far backed up my claims more than you have. Congratulations, friend.

 

Just for reference: that's StarCraft and there's 21 players who earned more money. All male. Those below all male. I'm not sure if it's accurate but compared to the 300K made by Scarlett, I think the number 2 in registered earnings for female players is at $50. But let's be generous and say it's $10000. That's still a big fucking difference. This is a 1v1 game where all you have is your own skill to dominate and the only player showing up is transgender. Where dem womenz at?

[Bouzoo]

31 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Everything in that list is cool and everything

But unless they invented electricity, cars, PCs, gaming, guns, airplanes or anything "important" as that, it's not important obviously. I have my stance on feminism and equality, but give credit where credit is due, and you are trying to explain that to a person that said:

10 hours ago, 7Hertz said:

Might explain why males tend to want to 360 no-scope or try something else, it pioneers a new way to play a game.

It pioneers loss of brain cells. Just wow. 

10 hours ago, 7Hertz said:

All the greatest things in life were pioneered by men... says it all.

You are either a very successful troll or a legitimately uneducated moron. I think I called that only 1 person in 5 years here. 

[Majinhoju]

10 minutes ago, floofer said:

Thats fair, and why I changed the title. 

I say change it back.  Watching everyone get their panties in a twist over this is kind of amusing

[aezakmi]

18 minutes ago, Majinhoju said:

I agree.

My wife and I would play the exact same games and she would be the one getting creepy and offensive message at the end of the round from angry players.  

They're mainly 9yr olds that get mad when you kill them too much, any of those messages is serious but it bothers to see them in every match

[Bramimond]

At first I was like, this makes sense, because to be a successful gamer (read: make money from gaming) you need people that want to watch you and then being a woman and being single helps. But then going to the thread it turns out to be just fake news again.

 

It's always amusing to have people acknowledge the physical difference between men and women, even agreeing that women's brains are smaller, but then they go on believing that women are just as good as men when they don't have to compete physically and the mental gymnastics for that are just so hilarious, it always cracks me up. Just look at chess. There, you don't even need any type of coordination or fast fingers or whatever, just pure thought. And women still can't compete on the same level as men on average.

 

But I guess this is the flavor of reality denial in our current age. Used to be political correct that the earth is flat. Or so the story goes. Not sure if we ever reach a point where politics won't try to deny reality. Feeding delusions is pretty lucrative, after all. Just look how far religions got that way.

[MoonSpot]

Well this thread went to hell, and why?  The opening article is quite clearly chalk full of garbage methodology to be taken with any sincerity and yet again we find people throwing in a crap ton more different things from all over the place to obfuscate the opening point even more and transmogrify it into men vs women at large in the open world in all matter of activities.

 

All the while the vast majority of lurkers saw this coming a mile away left only to mutter at their screen like iago:

 

[ravenshrike]

49 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Your argument would actually make sense. His didn't.

Because there's not split second spatial reasoning going on when deciding whether there's room to pass or in navigating a series of turns at all. Visualizing the movement of objects and their relative motion at the fraction of a second level is extremely important in racing.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217124430.htm

[Stefan Payne]

I need to put a bit Petroleum in the fire burning here and the people who think that all people are the same:

https://www.businessinsider.com/gaming-associated-with-impaired-social-skills-for-some-girls-but-not-boys-2019-4

Study found that Gaming doesn't influence Boys at all. 

Study found that Girls who game more at age 10 have poorer social skillz than girls who don't spend as much time.

 

Well, have fun with that.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Just chiming in to say that F1 driving is very much a physically intensive sport - even just the G forces on some turns are more than many people can handle without losing control.

Call me a sexists or misogynist or even old fashioned and chivalrous, but subjecting a nice pair of boobs to unnecessary G force is something no one should be in favor of. 

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Gender politics 

...is just plain evil.

Just set the rules, for everyone the same. If woman can succeed, good for them. If not, well that's life.

 

But can we please stop discriminating based on Gender, the color of the skin and other shit that has nothing to do with one's capability to do a certain job well or are excellent at it??

Because basically what that stuff does is to get people in positions they don't deserve, that they haven't earned and discriminate against people who would do a better job...

[SansVarnic]

-= Locked =-

 

I do believe this topic has run its course.