Single, Unemployed Better "Gamers”

[Gegger]

5 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Do you think this is because women are better, or because the best skilled women play online gaming?

 

I think it's hard to say, and find the original article problematic in that sense. With so many people playing games, who knows if people like me (who are just useless at some things when, say ill  ) are just loosing not because they are men/women but because of life (or hardware  ) situations.

 

PS, graph also shows fitness plays a big role. Like, literally. If I'm too ill to go for a walk/run, then I'll fail in RocketLeague all the time. If I'm feeling fine, I'm out, not playing RL, but may win a couple of games when I do... so I end up de-ranking because I play when I feel too ill to go out. 

 

PS... Oh, yes it's a "rate of improvement" graph, and so does not say what the headline says. Stupid faking of results from actual real data.

 

My "data" is obviously skewed, I don't think that women are better than men. For me, it's just nice to see that more women are playing games than before. I also hate the stereotype that girls don't like games. 

[RejZoR]

It's not that girls don't like the games, they just aren't interested in them as much.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, 7Hertz said:

Sauron, your logic is still backwards, on a level playing field all the way to the top a man will out strength any female.

That was never in question though, unless the discussion changed it's been about untrained vs trained, not fit vs fit comparative to male vs female. I have not seen anyone during this raise an argument counter to what is established facts about the difference between men and woman.

 

What was being debated is how actually strong a typical average male is compared an above average fit female. You keep falling back to examples of fit men, some examples of very fit way above average where the biological difference are more pronounced. The notion of men being strong is not being challenged it's how strong a, today, average male is and I think you like many over estimate that and underestimate a fit female.

 

I know I said I didn't want to discuss it but I think it's important if you are you be careful in sticking to the context that has been raised not what you want to, because as explained above nobody is arguing the point you think they are.

 

Here is some sample data, I do not back this in any way nor know how accurate it is but it's something and it has male, female data as well as weight and competency breakdown.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/horizontal-leg-press/kg

 

Example Male 70kg Beginner: 69kg

Example Female 70kg Novice: 75kg

 

As you can see at the bottom of the competency scale it doesn't take much at all to surpass a male as a female, tables turn quickly however (a point nobody was trying to counter).

 

[yian88]

4 hours ago, floofer said:

Chill lol. Women probably are better at some games than others, as some games use different parts of the brain. It doesn't really matter how 'good' you are at a game anyway, a game is to have fun and enjoy. 

Please i see this everywhere, pointless comparison between women and men when they are slightly better at something.

You could find 10000 things men are better at than women but i wont and we shouldnt care.

Both men and women can do the same things just as good if they dedicate themselves to it, except physical activities and sports.

Men and women do think differently due to biology yes, which makes us have very different personalities and interests but as i said if both men and women tried hard enough they would be almost equal at any task.

 

Would you enjoy to see tons of threads starting with "men are way better than women at...", i dont want to see that because its pointless and generates conflict between men and women like feminists like to do. 

[7Hertz]

14 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That was never in question though, unless the discussion changed it's been about untrained vs trained, not fit vs fit comparative to male vs female. I have not seen anyone during this raise an argument counter to what is established facts about the difference between men and woman.

 

What was being debated is how actually strong a typical average male is compared an above average fit female. You keep falling back to examples of fit men, some examples of very fit way above average where the biological difference are more pronounced. The notion of men being strong is not being challenged it's how strong a, today, average male is and I think you like many over estimate that and underestimate a fit female.

 

I know I said I didn't want to discuss it but I think it's important if you are you be careful in sticking to the context that has been raised not what you want to, because as explained above nobody is arguing the point you think they are.

 

Here is some sample data, I do not back this in any way nor know how accurate it is but it's something and it has male, female data as well as weight and competency breakdown.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/horizontal-leg-press/kg

 

Example Male 70kg Beginner: 69kg

Example Female 70kg Novice: 75kg

 

As you can see at the bottom of the competency scale it doesn't take much at all to surpass a male as a female, tables turn quickly however (a point nobody was trying to counter).

 

Notice how you sway the goal posts, you have moved from the logic that males are 50% stronger in upper body strength to using lower body strength.

 

Well here is the results which use total body strength since neither you or the other can stop logically swaying.

 

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/deadlift

 

 

As i said the average dude is still stronger well in this test roughly equal as the female who is semi trained (Novice)

 

This also expects a person to be at the strength level of said weight vs someone else also which is not guaranteed.

[leadeater]

Just now, 7Hertz said:

Notice how you sway the goal posts, you have moved from the logic that males are 50% stronger in upper body strength to using lower body strength.

 

Well here is the results which use total body strength since neither you or the other can stop logically swaying.

 

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/deadlift

 

 

As i said the average dude is still stronger well in this test as strong as the female who is semi trained (Novice)

I didn't sway anything, it was straight off the google search I did. And if you go through each one, like I just was, the difference varies between each exercise. And when was this exclusive to only upper body strength? (I went back and checked and you stated 50% stronger, not in upper, just stronger).

 

And did you also read the definition of each competency as well? So I ask you what would you define as a fit female? Because even the Novice category is not exactly a high bar in terms of what many females actually do i.e. more than 6 months of regular exercise. But back to the same comparison but now deadlift instead it only takes 6 months to be within 15% strength while having all the other benefits of having actually exercised, that difference applied in a sporting context or most every day situations would result in that female being more effective at the task.

 

Any amount of regular exercise is going to enable a female to quickly surpass a male in strength, endurance, ability very quickly compared to a male that does very little of anything and fits within the now very sad category of overweight/obese many are.

 

Neither am I stranger to this situation as well, having been a former competitive swimmer for over 10 years and amateur triathlete for just as long, all beginner males get beaten handily by any female who's completed just the previous season. Exceptions allowed for existing sporting males who compete in other sports. Same is true also for soccer which I still play, only takes a single season of training and matches and a female would be more effective on the field than a beginner unfit male.

 

This whole notion that males are biologically stronger therefore automatically better at sports and strength tasks is silly, it takes so little amount of work for a female to exceed that capability it makes it meaningless. Once you compare both genders doing regular exercise sure male every time.

 

And the original statement that started this

Quote

Trained women are on average about as strong as an average man by default.

So it boils down to what we would consider 'trained' and I think agreement on exactly what that means is going to be difficult.

[7Hertz]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I didn't sway anything, it was straight off the google search I did. And if you go through each one, like I just was, the difference varies between each exercise. And when was this exclusive to only upper body strength? (I went back and checked and you stated 50% stronger, not in upper, just stronger).

 

And did you also read the definition of each competency as well? So I ask you what would you define as a fit female? Because even the Novice category is not exactly a high bar in terms of what many females actually do i.e. more than 6 months of regular exercise. But back to the same comparison but now deadlift instead it only takes 6 months to be within 15% strength while having all the other benefits of having actually exercised, that difference applied in a sporting context or most every day situations would result in that female being more effective at the task.

 

Any amount of regular exercise is going to enable a female to quickly surpass a male in strength, endurance, ability very quickly compared to a male that does very little of anything and fits within the now very sad category of overweight/obese many are.

 

Neither am I stranger to this situation as well, having been a former competitive swimmer for over 10 years and amateur triathlete for just as long, all beginner males get beaten handily by any female who's completed just the previous season. Exceptions allowed for existing sporting males who compete in other sports. Same is true also for soccer which I still play, only takes a single season of training and matches and a female would be more effective on the field than a beginner unfit male.

 

This whole notion that males are biologically stronger therefore automatically better at sports and strength tasks is silly, it takes so little amount of work for a female to exceed that capability it makes it meaningless. Once you compare both genders doing regular exercise sure male every time.

 

And the original statement that started this

So it boils down to what we would consider 'trained' and I think agreement on exactly what that means is going to be difficult.

Well go explain to those who trained hard for years and never met the expectations.

Since you said the Bar for novice is rather low.

 

Must be experienced?

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, 7Hertz said:

Well go explain to those who trained hard for years and never met the expectations.

Explain what to who? About what? Are you trying to bring in to the discussion fitness requirements for example military? Didn't I already just address this before in that it was not a comparison about trained requirements? Do I have to yet again point out it was about an average man who would equally fail the same fitness and strength test?

 

Edit:

I can also go find a speech from I think it was a previous secretary of defense, or top military official, who stated obesity was a threat to national security because the pool of citizens that would pass basic enlistment tests was falling drastically. It's bad when you actually have to start making those sort of statements.

[Taja]

In e-sports, women and men can compete in the same teams (because its not a physical sport) and in dota there are ZERO women that play in a real pro level.

I think that will change, and thats good, just like the South American scene is growing internationally (Im brazilian and very happy to see a brazilian team going to most majors, and even if they lose most of the times, its still an evolution).

 

The main problem IMO is that the new generation of "gamer girls" is not ready yet. Im 23 and most of the women I grew up with didnt play (or dont until today) - gaming was a male activity, so most women didnt grew up gaming (like most males), but nowadays this is changing rapidly.

 

In the end, its all math: some research shows that 50% of gamers are female, but they dont take into account the AMOUNT of time they play (daily/weekly or whatever), the amount of time they have been playing (since 6yo? since 20yo?) and if they are playing competitive games. I would guess that in competitive games, balancing by gameplay TIME, it would still be 98%+ men.

[Phentos]

A good friend of mine IRL was an absolute boss back in the CS 1.6/CS:Source - early CS:GO days, while unemployed living off monthly checks from his parents. However since he started going back to school and getting a part time job (no doubt motivated by the gravy train from his parents drying up), his skill at the game has noticeably declined. He's still very good at it, but he's a shadow of what he used to be. 

 

I've nagged at him many times over the years to either stream or get on Youtube to show off his skill at the game but he couldn't be bothered I guess. 

 

So there is some credence to this theory at least in my experience.

 

Unfortunately I don't really know any women IRL who are really into gaming, aside from a couple past classmates playing Candy Crush or Angry Birds on their phones before class began.

[TechyBen]

2 hours ago, Gegger said:

My "data" is obviously skewed, I don't think that women are better than men. For me, it's just nice to see that more women are playing games than before. I also hate the stereotype that girls don't like games. 

Yeah. I'm all against stereotypes. I kinda don't mind if someone does not like or less people like gaming, because I'm not looking to defend it for anything other than a fun past time. However, more variety/inclusion is great (I'm all for disability inclusive games too!). I would prefer people not to judge gaming unfairly. It is also a massive broad media, with many different types. If it's a waste of time, then so are other hobbies. OR call it out for it's real faults (there are many now  Like exploitative online games).

 

Sadly though, there is a lot of competitive behaviour, and that generally brings out either the best in people, or the worse.

 

People tend to judge it less like "sports" (general and varied) and more like "Comic books" (and only thinking of a single edition).

[aezakmi]

wait a sec. I have a gf, a job, study yet I'm Legend II on DOTA, and I'm not even that good at the game just play ranked matches with some friends

 

I sense feminist propaganda here

[thorhammerz]

1 hour ago, aezakmi said:

I sense feminist propaganda here

We are all equally human... but some are simply female more equal than the rest .

[Majinhoju]

My wife is easily as good at gamimg as I am.  We're both lifelong gamers.

[Bouzoo]

This thread, I swear to god. I'd gladly jump in but better if I sit this one out. 

 

Honestly, I have never seen very few female gamers that were into e-sports titles. They were always in other genres, RPGs, more casual games, you name it. Never CS:GO, MOBAs, or any competitive game. It's just that their interest is not in there. Of course, talking from experience with my fiancee, her female gamer friends and mine as well. 

[Sauron]

4 hours ago, 7Hertz said:

Sauron, your logic is still backwards, on a level playing field all the way to the top a man will out strength any female.

Quote or mention me if you want to address me directly...

 

I'll prove you wrong on this too though; deadlifting for a lot of people caps out at about 3 times their body weight or below (source) and that's with a favorable body structure and intense training. This means that the vast majority of men will never be able to deadlift 315kg like the current women's record holder. I, for one, am absolutely certain that no amount of training could ever take me there, especially considering my body weight is far below 100kg. So no, a given man will not outstrength "any" woman unless they are extremely talented and among the best. And of course it only gets "worse" if you consider the significant amount of people who have a variety of bone, muscle, heart or blood conditions that may prevent them from exerting themselves in that way at all.

4 hours ago, 7Hertz said:

And i laughed at the clown who put a boxer vs an arm wrestler, a boxer does not train the arms as much as people think, this slows them down, heavyweights are not as fast as a welter weight but a welter weight cannot vs a heavy weight due to very real issues, such as the heavy weight simply knocking the welterweight in half with a couple of blows.

Your claim was that a woman couldn't be stronger than a man, so I think the point stands. Boxers are not specifically trained for arm strength but they are definitely stronger than the average untrained Joe.

4 hours ago, 7Hertz said:

And as for E-sports, CSGO.. female competition is no where close to male.

But esports are completely unrelated to body strength and there is no proof that women are inherently prone to be worse at it than men. A much more likely explanation is the one I provided over and over again; women are discouraged from playing by societal norms and the few that ignore them aren't enough to allow for someone truly talented to show up and shine through - though there are exceptions, which you guys are completely ignoring... because of course you are.

1 hour ago, aezakmi said:

wait a sec. I have a gf, a job, study yet I'm Legend II on DOTA, and I'm not even that good at the game just play ranked matches with some friends

 

I sense feminist propaganda here

This "study" isn't very reliable, but your personal achievements in DOTA don't really count as evidence to the contrary - you could simply be particularly talented. Besides, the presence of men in the lower ranks is evidence enough that most men aren't as good as you at DOTA.

[Commodus]

If there are fewer women gamers in certain scenes, I'd say it's for the same reason women haven't pursued STEM careers as much as they did in the past -- they're frequently discouraged from sticking to it.

 

I know more than a few women who like playing games that are ostensibly dominated by men, but avoid making their gender clear most of the time because there's a good chance they'll be harassed the moment it's certain they really are women.  They certainly come under fire when they take up esports.  And of course, there's the representation.  Women don't need to have female characters in every game, but they're certainly going to feel more comfortable playing if there's more than token representation (see Overwatch versus "dudebro" games like the Call of Duty series).

[aezakmi]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Besides, the presence of men in the lower ranks is evidence enough that most men aren't as good as you at DOTA.

According to the logic of this study that'd make me a woman

 

time to open up a twitch and prostitute myself start earning some money fam

[Sauron]

Just now, aezakmi said:

According to the logic of this study that'd make me a woman

Well no, that's not how statistics work

[dalekphalm]

8 hours ago, 7Hertz said:

All the greatest things in life were pioneered by men... says it all.

This is either straight bullshit, or a joke in very poor taste.

 

Historically, sure, many ("all" is literally absurd) important inventions and discoveries were done by men. Because women were limited or even barred from most professions for most of human history.

 

But in the "modern" era (Industrial revolution and onward) many of the things that you take for granted were pioneered by women.

 

Jane Cooke Wright in the 1940's and 50's pioneered research into Chemotherapy treatment, making it safer and more wide spread, and popularizing it as a treatment option.

 

Katharine Bishop co-discovered Vitamin E while doing research on rat reproduction.

 

Marion Donovan invented disposable diapers.

 

Leila Alice Denmark co-developed the Pertussis vaccine.

 

 Annie Jump Cannon created the Harvard Stellar Classification Scheme, which was a classification system used to classify stars based on their temperature - this was used until 1924 (it was created in the late 1800's).

 

Jocelyn Bell Burnell discovered rapidly rotating neutron stars.

 

Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin first posited that stars are mostly comprised of Hydrogen and Helium, which fundamentally changed our understanding of nuclear physics and star composition.

 

Marie Curie is perhaps one of the most famous female scientists of all time, a two-time Nobel Prize winner, and a pioneer of research into Radiation, including discovery of Polonium and Radium.

 

Patsy Sherman co-invented Scotchguard.

Dorothy Hodgkin discovered the chemical structure of Vitamin B12.

 

Sybil M. Rock created the mathematical techniques required in analyzing Mass Spectrometer results, and devised many of the procedures for it.

 

Inge Lehmann discovered the Earth's inner core.

 

Margaret Knight invented a machine that folded and glued brown paper bags, giving us the square bottomed paper bag that is still in use today. She held over 87 patents.

 

Josephine Cochrane the first commercially successful dishwasher.

 

Alice Parker invented a system of gas powered central heating for a personal home.

 

Bette Nesmith Graham invented one of the first formulas for "correction fluid" (often called White-out, or liquid paper).

 

Mary Anderson invented the first functional windscreen wiper.

 

Margaret A. Wilcox invented the first car heater.

 

 Grace Hopper wrote the first Code Compiler.

 

Nine different Coding languages were invented by women - notable ones include COBOL, FORMAC, CLU, and BBC BASIC.

 

Hedy Lamarr co-developed a radio based torpedo guidance system for use in WW2 - the principles of this work are used in WIFI, Bluetooth, and CDMA technologies, to name a few.

 

Ruth Graves Wakefield invented Chocolate Chip Cookies.

 

Rosalind Franklin was instrumental in the discovery of DNA structure.

 

These are but few of many other examples, of how women pioneered, created, invented, and developed some extremely important things in the world - many of which we use to this day.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_and_discoveries_by_women
(And before anyone bitches about Wikipedia, check their sources - pretty much everything in the wiki article is sourced with references)

 

This article is perhaps a little flame inducing, but the idea that women are somehow inherently worse at video games is an odd claim. What's the biological factor there?

Women being rare or non-existent in the top of the pro gamer field doesn't mean they are worse or cannot be as good as men. There are so many factors that have nothing to do with biology to account for, that it make this claim is absurd without solid evidence that rules out the other factors.

[7Hertz]

5 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

This is either straight bullshit, or a joke in very poor taste.

 

Historically, sure, many ("all" is literally absurd) important inventions and discoveries were done by men. Because women were limited or even barred from most professions for most of human history.

 

But in the "modern" era (Industrial revolution and onward) many of the things that you take for granted were pioneered by women.

 

Jane Cooke Wright in the 1940's and 50's pioneered research into Chemotherapy treatment, making it safer and more wide spread, and popularizing it as a treatment option.

 

Katharine Bishop co-discovered Vitamin E while doing research on rat reproduction.

 

Marion Donovan invented disposable diapers.

 

Leila Alice Denmark co-developed the Pertussis vaccine.

 

 Annie Jump Cannon created the Harvard Stellar Classification Scheme, which was a classification system used to classify stars based on their temperature - this was used until 1924 (it was created in the late 1800's).

 

Jocelyn Bell Burnell discovered rapidly rotating neutron stars.

 

Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin first posited that stars are mostly comprised of Hydrogen and Helium, which fundamentally changed our understanding of nuclear physics and star composition.

 

Marie Curie is perhaps one of the most famous female scientists of all time, a two-time Nobel Prize winner, and a pioneer of research into Radiation, including discovery of Polonium and Radium.

 

Patsy Sherman co-invented Scotchguard.

Dorothy Hodgkin discovered the chemical structure of Vitamin B12.

 

Sybil M. Rock created the mathematical techniques required in analyzing Mass Spectrometer results, and devised many of the procedures for it.

 

Inge Lehmann discovered the Earth's inner core.

 

Margaret Knight invented a machine that folded and glued brown paper bags, giving us the square bottomed paper bag that is still in use today. She held over 87 patents.

 

Josephine Cochrane the first commercially successful dishwasher.

 

Alice Parker invented a system of gas powered central heating for a personal home.

 

Bette Nesmith Graham invented one of the first formulas for "correction fluid" (often called White-out, or liquid paper).

 

Mary Anderson invented the first functional windscreen wiper.

 

Margaret A. Wilcox invented the first car heater.

 

 Grace Hopper wrote the first Code Compiler.

 

Nine different Coding languages were invented by women - notable ones include COBOL, FORMAC, CLU, and BBC BASIC.

 

Hedy Lamarr co-developed a radio based torpedo guidance system for use in WW2 - the principles of this work are used in WIFI, Bluetooth, and CDMA technologies, to name a few.

 

Ruth Graves Wakefield invented Chocolate Chip Cookies.

 

Rosalind Franklin was instrumental in the discovery of DNA structure.

 

These are but few of many other examples, of how women pioneered, created, invented, and developed some extremely important things in the world - many of which we use to this day.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_and_discoveries_by_women
(And before anyone bitches about Wikipedia, check their sources - pretty much everything in the wiki article is sourced with references)

 

This article is perhaps a little flame inducing, but the idea that women are somehow inherently worse at video games is an odd claim. What's the biological factor there?

Women being rare or non-existent in the top of the pro gamer field doesn't mean they are worse or cannot be as good as men. There are so many factors that have nothing to do with biology to account for, that it make this claim is absurd without solid evidence that rules out the other factors.

Sorry but it is a fact just like the story of these females.

 

 

 

Gender politics needs balance.

[7Hertz]

20 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Quote or mention me if you want to address me directly...

 

I'll prove you wrong on this too though; deadlifting for a lot of people caps out at about 3 times their body weight or below (source) and that's with a favorable body structure and intense training. This means that the vast majority of men will never be able to deadlift 315kg like the current women's record holder. I, for one, am absolutely certain that no amount of training could ever take me there, especially considering my body weight is far below 100kg. So no, a given man will not outstrength "any" woman unless they are extremely talented and among the best. And of course it only gets "worse" if you consider the significant amount of people who have a variety of bone, muscle, heart or blood conditions that may prevent them from exerting themselves in that way at all.

Your claim was that a woman couldn't be stronger than a man, so I think the point stands. Boxers are not specifically trained for arm strength but they are definitely stronger than the average untrained Joe.

But esports are completely unrelated to body strength and there is no proof that women are inherently prone to be worse at it than men. A much more likely explanation is the one I provided over and over again; women are discouraged from playing by societal norms and the few that ignore them aren't enough to allow for someone truly talented to show up and shine through - though there are exceptions, which you guys are completely ignoring... because of course you are.

This "study" isn't very reliable, but your personal achievements in DOTA don't really count as evidence to the contrary - you could simply be particularly talented. Besides, the presence of men in the lower ranks is evidence enough that most men aren't as good as you at DOTA.

Who cares, sick of you all having something to prove instead of using your brains.

[Sauron]

2 minutes ago, 7Hertz said:

Who cares, sick of you all having something to prove instead of using your brains.

Indeed, I had a feeling you didn't actually care beyond defending your fragile ego.

[aezakmi]

7 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Women being rare or non-existent in the top of the pro gamer field doesn't mean they are worse or cannot be as good as men.

they're not bad, it's just EVERY SINGLE online game has a shit and toxic shit playerbase so they most girls stay away and play singleplayer games

[7Hertz]

Just now, Sauron said:

Indeed, I had a feeling you didn't actually care beyond defending your fragile ego.

Hmm

 

Nice attempt on the reversal, i just don't care as much, seemingly those without a woman seem more competent at winning these white knight battles.