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Garlic

First ever build; SFF light gaming

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Ive been using Mac laptops for everything computer related for years, but lately I was given a Windows 10 based computer at work and got inspired to build a similar setup for myself at home, only mine needs to be able to play games.

 

More specially, I want to play games like World of Warships, War Thunder and Overwatch at 1080p at a smooth frame rate and with a high detail level, and when I am not gaming I want to be able to use 2-3 monitors simultaneously for viewing spreadsheets and documents and sometimes run 1 or 2 VMs on the side. For this I plan to acquire a 144 Hz TN panel with a 1 ms response time for gaming, and 1-2 slower IPS panels with clearer colours and sharper contrast for everything non-game related. The system itself needs to be packed into a small ITX case, only because I have fallen in love with the Silverstone ML08, and because I want to be able to easily carry my computer with me when I visit friends to play games. 

 

My budget for the computer itself is equivalent to about 2000 US dollars, but I am willing to go higher if there is any significant performance gain or future proofing to be had.

 

My build plan:

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/wsh9gw

 

Build specific questions:

 

1) I am worried about thermals, and have tried to pick components that won't overheat and throttle in the small case. Ive chosen the i7-8700 specifically because it only draws 65W of power, but I am aware that I am giving up some power by doing so. Would I be able to effectively cool an i7-9700k or even an i9-9900k in this case? And would the performance gain be worth the extra cost?

 

2) Regarding the graphics card, does anyone know where I can find its physical dimensions? It needs to be no wider 121mm in order to be fastened with the stabilising brackets included with the case, but while it looks like it will fit the brackets just fine I want to be sure before I order.

 

3) Speaking of thermals and graphics cards, would a blower style card be a better match for a case like the ML08 that lacks case fans? In any case the blower is lower and might fit the brackets better, and the ability to transport hot air out of the case may be a boon.

 

4) And speaking of blowing and graphics cards, if I decide to go with a premium CPU and blow my budget wide open, would a 2080 ti be any good in this build? Or would I need to invest in a better board and faster RAM and whatnot to take advantage of it?

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1) It's going to draw more than a 65w, Intel's idea of TDP is BS. Obviously an overclocked K chip is going to draw more power but your CPU is going to be drawing more than Intel claims.

 

2) The card is two PCIe slots wide and the length is on pcpartpicker. I don't remember how wide two PCIe slots is but I'm more than certain the information is available.

 

3) Yeah a blower might be better with this case. I would take the trade off of this case's size to get a different ITX case. @fasauceome has an ITX case that he recommends in his signature but I can't remember the exact name of it.

 

4) It depends on what games, resolution, and settings you're playing at. If you're playing 4k, the 2080 Ti is a great card for that. The 2070 is a great 1080p card and a pretty good card for 1440p.


PSU Tier List

 

  PCs and other things:

Spoiler

Current PC

CPU: AMD A8-6600k (@4.2Ghz)

GPU: GTX 1070Ti 8gb FTW2 iCX

Motherboard: GA-F2A78M-HD2 

RAM: 8gb Patriot DDR3-1600mhz

Storage: Samsung 830 EVO 120gb, WD Blue 1tb 7200RPM 

PSU: SeaSonicM12II 620w (I wish I didn't buy this)

 Peripherals: Logitech G305//Corsair K55 RGB 

Displays: Asus MG248QR//Dell 1905FP

Spoiler

New PC (getting parts)

CPU: i7-8086k [✓]

Cooling: EVGA CLC 280 RGB [✓]

GPU: EVGA GTX 1070Ti 8gb FTW2 iCX [✓]

Mobo: GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS PRO [✓]

RAM: XPG SPEXTRIX X41 2666mhz (Grey) [✓]

 Storage: T-Force Delta 250gb, WD Blue 1tb 7200RPM [✓]

PSU: 650w+ and ranked well

Case: Fractal Design Meshify C White

Peripherals: Logitech G305//Corsair K55 RGB [✓]

Displays: Asus MG248QR//Dell 1905FP [✓]

Extra: Sky blue front panel, sky blue cable extensions [✓]

Spoiler

Other

Phone: Huawei Mate 10 Lite (China steal my data???)

Dog: Irish Water Spaniel, Lucy, 9 years old (I didn't know what to write)

School Laptop: Acer Chromebook R11 ((less RAM than my phone)

 

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11 minutes ago, fantasia. said:

. @fasauceome has an ITX case that he recommends in his signature but I can't remember the exact name of it.

I'll refresh your memory real quick


I WILL find your ITX build thread, and I WILL recommend the SIlverstone Sugo SG13B

 

Primary PC:

i7 8086k (won) - EVGA Z370 Classified K - G.Kill Trident Z RGB - Force MP500 - Jedi Order Titan Xp - The venerated Hyper 212 Evo (with RGB Riing flair) - EVGA G2 650W - Black and green theme, Razer branwashed me.

Draws 400 watts under max load, for reference.

 

Linux Proliant ML150 G6:

Xeon X5560 - 24GB ECC DDR3 - Asus DirectCU GTX 760 - old Seagate 1.5TB HDD - Dark moded Ubuntu (and Win7, cuz why not)

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2 hours ago, Garlic said:

The Sugo does look neat and efficient, I´ll definitely take a look at it 👍

Bear in mind that it does not include a case fan, if you were to choose a 140 mm fan for the front intake, it would limit your GPU length, so my personal preference is to go with a 120mm of your choice LED color.


I WILL find your ITX build thread, and I WILL recommend the SIlverstone Sugo SG13B

 

Primary PC:

i7 8086k (won) - EVGA Z370 Classified K - G.Kill Trident Z RGB - Force MP500 - Jedi Order Titan Xp - The venerated Hyper 212 Evo (with RGB Riing flair) - EVGA G2 650W - Black and green theme, Razer branwashed me.

Draws 400 watts under max load, for reference.

 

Linux Proliant ML150 G6:

Xeon X5560 - 24GB ECC DDR3 - Asus DirectCU GTX 760 - old Seagate 1.5TB HDD - Dark moded Ubuntu (and Win7, cuz why not)

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Right then, Ive updated my build: 

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/HerrBrackhaus/saved/9f3CLk

 

I ended up tweaking a few things, most notably a better SSD, faster RAM and a liquid cooled i7-9700K, and the system definitely looks more high-end now. I am going to add case fans too, but I need to research the number of fan headers on the mobo and plan accordingly for a good air flow.

 

Thank you all for your feedback.

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7 hours ago, Garlic said:

Right then, Ive updated my build: 

 

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/HerrBrackhaus/saved/9f3CLk

 

I ended up tweaking a few things, most notably a better SSD, faster RAM and a liquid cooled i7-9700K, and the system definitely looks more high-end now. I am going to add case fans too, but I need to research the number of fan headers on the mobo and plan accordingly for a good air flow.

 

Thank you all for your feedback.

there's lots of unnecessary parts in there. do you really need 4000Mhz ram and a 2TB 970 evo?


CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 1700@3.8Ghz Heatsink: Gelid Phantom Black GPU: Zotac GTX 1070ti Mini RAM: Qidian DDR4 2x8GB 3000Mhz mobo: MSI X370 Gaming Plus case: Fractal Design Define C PSU: Superflower Leadex Gold 650W

 

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PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($409.70 @ OutletPC) 
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master - MasterLiquid ML120R RGB 66.7 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  ($89.98 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: ASRock - Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($183.98 @ Newegg) 
Memory: G.Skill - Trident Z RGB 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory  ($180.98 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Crucial - P1 1 TB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($128.99 @ Amazon) 
Storage: Seagate - Barracuda 2 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($59.78 @ OutletPC) 
Video Card: EVGA - GeForce RTX 2080 8 GB GAMING Video Card  ($698.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Case: Silverstone - Sugo SG13B-Q Mini ITX Tower Case  ($50.50 @ B&H) 
Power Supply: SeaSonic - FOCUS Plus Platinum 650 W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($107.84 @ Amazon) 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit  ($129.89 @ OutletPC) 
Total: $2040.63
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-04-22 21:50 EDT-0400


CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 1700@3.8Ghz Heatsink: Gelid Phantom Black GPU: Zotac GTX 1070ti Mini RAM: Qidian DDR4 2x8GB 3000Mhz mobo: MSI X370 Gaming Plus case: Fractal Design Define C PSU: Superflower Leadex Gold 650W

 

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12 hours ago, Garlic said:

My build plan:

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/wsh9gw

Build specific questions

That don't work!
That Optical drive doesn't fit in that case.

For the Silverstone SFF Cases, you need a "Slot In" Drive. That's also mentioned in the Specs of the case (at least english)

 

WHy 2x1TB HDD and not 2TB HDDs?

 

What about the Heatsink? The Intel Boxed Heatsink is garbage.

Z390 Board with a non K CPU makes even less sense.

 

SFF Builds are rather complicated, if you don't have much experience, they are not the best way to start.

Because you do not have any space to hide cables or oter stuff...

 

 

 

Why now and not wait for Ryzen 3000, ich might be released in 4 weeks??


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Z390 Board with a non K CPU makes even less sense.

It leaves an upgrade path to the 9700K, 9900K, and possibly Comet Lake

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7 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

It leaves an upgrade path to the 9700K, 9900K, and possibly Comet Lake

hahahaha, good joke...

Comet Lake will get a new Socket as LGA1151v2 already spans over 2 generations and that's all that was supported since the Birth of LGA115x...


When did Upgrading on Intel ever make sense?!
Except for LGA1366, where long after the Plattform was EOL the Market was flooded with 6 Core Xeons....

 

Besides that there is no point in upgrading an LGA115x System...

 

The only time it could make sense is if you had gotten a lower end CPU on LGA1151 and could upgrade to at least an 8k Series - wich you can't because Intel locked the Upgradepath for no reason. As shown in this Video:

 


Upgrading on AMD however is a different thing, when 3000 Series comes out and probably also 4000 series might be supported on AM4...

 


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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12 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Comet Lake will get a new Socket as LGA1151v2 already spans over 2 generations and that's all that was supported since the Birth of LGA115x...

You don't know that nor do I. But rumors have been stated that Comet Lake might be supported on Z390 as a response to AMD's approach to upgradeability. It wouldn't be that farfetched for the competition to respond in kind.

 

12 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

When did Upgrading on Intel ever make sense?!
Except for LGA1366, where long after the Plattform was EOL the Market was flooded with 6 Core Xeons.... 

 

Besides that there is no point in upgrading an LGA115x System...

Coming from an 8700 you're getting 2 more cores. 6 cores vs 8 cores. And if you went with the 9900K, you'd be getting an extra 4 threads. It makes a ton of sense for Premier Pro workloads as seen here where the 9900K creams the 8700K:

pic_disp3.jpg.7f66780809f3dfb795e1ee105c8fbb64.jpg

 

That's a 26% performance gain (it's even more of a gain coming from his 8700). Worth the upgrade. Especially if you get it second hand later for cheaper, say $350.

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18 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

You don't know that nor do I.

Yeah, what's more likely:
a) doing the same shit as ever
b) doing something completely different for no reason...

 

18 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

Coming from an 8700 you're getting 2 more cores. 6 cores vs 8 cores.

The 9600K is the same.

Only the 9700K has 8 Cores.

And going from 6 cores w/SMT to 8 without doesn't seem like an upgrade at all, that's a Sidegrade!

 

18 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

And if you went with the 9900K, you'd be getting an extra 4 threads.

...for 500€...

Yeah, no, that's bullshit.

18 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

That's a 26% performance gain

...for still 500€...

26% for 500€....

18 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

Especially if you get it second hand later for cheaper, say $350.

Oh yeah, when did that happen?!

A decent LGA1150 i7 (4770K and especially 4790K) are still at around 200€ or more.

Same with Sky and Kabylake.

 

X79 does look a bit better but when I could sell a Board that I got with Warranty from a shop for 69,90€ for 100€, its not really good. CPUs are not as rediculously overpriced as on the lower end sockets but still not worthwhile...

 

So no, the "Upgradepath" you're talking about just makes no sense.

 

On "the dark side" however it does...

But hey, that's AMD, you'd never recommend that.


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah, what's more likely:
a) doing the same shit as ever
b) doing something completely different for no reason...

 

It wouldn't be for no reason as my follow-up sentence said (do you read things through or not?). It would be in response to AMD's approach since they are actually competing now. Why wouldn't the competition try and match perks????

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

The 9600K is the same.

Only the 9700K has 8 Cores.

 

Did I ever mention the 9600K? No. I said 9700K and 9900K.

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

And going from 6 cores w/SMT to 8 without doesn't seem like an upgrade at all, that's a Sidegrade!

 

...for 500€...

Yeah, no, that's bullshit.

...for still 500€...

26% for 500€....

Oh yeah, when did that happen?!

A decent LGA1150 i7 (4770K and especially 4790K) are still at around 200€ or more.

Same with Sky and Kabylake.

 

X79 does look a bit better but when I could sell a Board that I got with Warranty from a shop for 69,90€ for 100€, its not really good. CPUs are not as rediculously overpriced as on the lower end sockets but still not worthwhile...

 

So no, the "Upgradepath" you're talking about just makes no sense.

 

On "the dark side" however it does...

But hey, that's AMD, you'd never recommend that.

Well, I can't speak for the EU, but I live in the USA, home of the list of Craig (craigslist) where Thou can obtain any hardware for much cheaper in a dark alley somewhere. I got a 8700K on craigslist a few months ago for $220.

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

But hey, that's AMD, you'd never recommend that. 

I really REALLY don't know how many times I have to say it. I HAVE recommended plenty of Ryzen systems on here. Look at my history. You are 100% objectively wrong, and all the evidence is in my history, right in front of you. There's no way around the fact that I do not one-sidely recommend Intel. I only recommend it for gaming and Adobe, just like it should be recommended in those scenarios.

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7 hours ago, jerubedo said:

It would be in response to AMD's approach

We do not know that yet. Its speculation and given intel's track record, I believe it when I see it and wouldn't push that claim.

"rumors", yeah? The Rumors that are as good as the "Adored" Sources??

 

Also haven't you read what I posted above?!


So let me rephrase it "rumors" say that its unlikely that Intel 10nm products will not work on LGA1151.

So now what?!

There are rumors that 10nm will not be compatible. Source was partially me, but who cares. Its rumored, right?

 

Especially since there is no difference in both LGA1151 Sockets, Intel just locked the CPU out with the BIOS they provided to the Motherboard manufacturers. So they could have released the 8k Series with support on 100 series Board like Z170 Chipset.

But they didn't.

Why should they do that now?! People like you will buy Intel anyway and continue to recommend it.

Quote

since they are actually competing now. Why wouldn't the competition try and match perks????

Becase they don't have to?!
Because there are people that won't buy anything else than Intel for no reason whatsoever...

 

Quote

Did I ever mention the 9600K? No. I said 9700K and 9900K.

Doesn't make it better.

9700K is at best a sidegrade. If you have the 8700, its really not worth to even think about. That only leaves the 9900K, wich is hte top of the line and right now around 505€uros.

 

Quote

I really REALLY don't know how many times I have to say it. I HAVE recommended plenty of Ryzen systems on here.

Yeah, but you are the one claiming that Intel is always better than AMD, for example with your claims about the i3-8100 vs. Ryzen 5 2600...

You claim that its better, when there already are games in the barely playable area that run way better on the 6 Core/12 Thread than the 4C/4T Intel CPU. 

 

Quote

Look at my history. You are 100% objectively wrong, and all the evidence is in my history, right in front of you. There's no way around the fact that I do not one-sidely recommend Intel. I only recommend it for gaming and Adobe, just like it should be recommended in those scenarios.

Yeah, like this, right?

Where you still claim that i3 is better for no reason...

 

And with AMD we know that Ryzen 3000 will run on AM4 and also a possible refresh of the Ryzen 3000 series, wich AMD openly announced.

 

Now show me the Intel CEO talking on stage about compatibility of the upcoming 10nm processors to existing Motherboards...


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted · Original PosterOP

How easy would it be to cool a Ryzen in a small case? I was turned off by the fact that they ship with largerer coolers that I had room for in the ML08, and I assumed that the large coolers were there because the Ryzen chips needed them.

 

And as for why I chose SFF? Well, I did not plan to get multiple graphics cards or utilize any of the other features that larger boards bring to the table, so I figured that I might as well save the space on my desk.

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3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Becase they don't have to?!
 Because there are people that won't buy anything else than Intel for no reason whatsoever...

The 9400F is a perfect example. Before Ryzen, Intel never in recent years released a cheaper CPU without the iGPU. This was a change brought on directly by Ryzen. Their bump up in cores was too. So yes, as shown, they did have to make changes to match perks.

 

3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah, but you are the one claiming that Intel is always better than AMD, for example with your claims about the i3-8100 vs. Ryzen 5 2600... 

You claim that its better, when there already are games in the barely playable area that run way better on the 6 Core/12 Thread than the 4C/4T Intel CPU. 

Not always, no. Only in gaming situations.

 

3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Where you still claim that i3 is better for no reason...

It's not for no reason. I gave ample data that proves it. And to be clear I said this:

 

"Gaming:

r3<r5 2400g<r5 2600=i3 8100<r5 2600x<r7 2700/x<i5 9400f<i5 9600k<i7 9700k<i9 9900k

 

Premiere Pro:

i3 8100<r3<r5 2400g<i5 9400f<r5 2600<r7 2700<r5 2600x<i7 9700K<r7 2700x< i9 9900K

 

Other Adobe:

r3<r5 2400g<i3 8100<r5 2600<r5 2600x<r7 2700/x<i5 9400f<i5 9600k<i7 9700k<i9 9900k

 

Most other productivity (modeling, rendering, streaming, folding, etc.) In this category there will be exceptions to the rule depending on the application but generally speaking:

i3<r3<i5<r5<i7<r7<i9"

 

I gave Ryzen ample representation for where it shines, which is in Preimiere Pro and other productivity. In gaming Intel is simply unrivaled right now. An i3 can compete with an r5, and an i5 can beat all the rest in the product stack. That's just how it is data-wise.

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4 hours ago, Garlic said:

How easy would it be to cool a Ryzen in a small case?

Pretty easy as their the lid is soldered (its not on 8k Series Intels), means better heat transfer from the die to the Cooler.

And also the power consumption on average is a bit lower as well.

 

Quote

I was turned off by the fact that they ship with largerer coolers that I had room for in the ML08, and I assumed that the large coolers were there because the Ryzen chips needed them.

The larger coolers are just better and keep the Chip cool.

The Intel Boxed can't keep the CPU cool so that it throttles and reduces the clockrate...

 

Anyway, it won't be quiet in the ML08 as its a very small case. An ML07 or FTZ01 (more appealing version of RVZ01) and the best Noctua Cooler that fits inside is the NH-L9a-AM4 (if you go with AM4).

 

With the larger Silverstone Cases (wich really is quite large, IMO), you can go with a Noctua NH-L12s and even a bit larger than that.

 

If you stick with your case, you might be able to mount a 25mm high Fan on the NH-L9

 

As for AM4 Boxed Heatsinks:
The Boxed one coming with the 2700 should fit.

 

Quote

And as for why I chose SFF? Well, I did not plan to get multiple graphics cards or utilize any of the other features that larger boards bring to the table, so I figured that I might as well save the space on my desk.

Yeah, I can understand that as I had and have a couple of SFF Builds, from µATX low Profile Desktop and for example the Antec Aria...

 

 

BTW: I just looked at the size of the AMD Boxed Coolers:
Boxed of 2700 should fit as its 54mm in hight, the ML08 allows up to 58mm.

Boxed of 2700x could eventually fit inside the ML07/FTZ01/RVZ01 as its 85mm in hight. BUT: that's a millimetre too high...

Though you usually can find millimetre or two.


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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