New power supply (ATX 2.4) needed for Ryzen 3000?

[Arktius]

Hi guys,

 

I'm planning to buy a Ryzen 3000er in the near future. I would like to continue using my current PSU (700 Watt be quiet! Straight Power E9 Non-Modular 80+ Gold), but I have heard that it is already too old and I should consider buying a new PSU. The reason is that my PSU does not support atx 2.4. I have not heard much about this in general, but maybe you did. 

[tarfeef101]

stolen from Tom's Hardware:
 

Quote

From the year 2000 to today, many revisions were released, with ATX 2.4 (Revision 1.31), released in April 2013, being the latest. The main difference between ATX 2.4 and the previous ATX version (Revision 1.30) is the minimum efficiency recommendations on the 5VSB rail, which actually became less tight. This is probably the first time that we saw a newer specification offering looser requirements, especially in an efficiency-related matter. While the rev. 1.30 spec recommended higher than 69 percent efficiency at 5VSB with 2.75W load on this rail, the newer spec recommends more than 55 percent efficiency with the same load. To be more exact, the rev. 1.30 spec took into account the requirements of the 2013 ErP Lot 6 and 2014 and 2016 ErP Lot 26 requirements directives, while the newer 1.31 follows the guidelines of the 2013 ErP Lot 6 and 2014 ErP Lot 3 directives, omitting the ErP Lot 26 directives. There is also a slight change in rise time. In the new ATX spec, the rise time waveform should be a straight line between 10 and 95 percent of its route, while in the previous specification, the range was 10 to 90 percent. A minimum loading condition for the second +12V rail was also added as a requirement, which in the 1.30 spec wasn't required but only recommended. Finally, the CFX12V, LFX12V, ATX12V, SFX12V, TFX12V and Flex ATX guidelines were updated in ATX 2.4.

 

I think you're fine.

[Snipergod87]

maybe @jonnyGURU Can offer some input, I think this is beyond most of our forum members knowledge.

[Deep Fried Mars Bar]

all the revisions since atx 2.0 which was brought out to deal with modern pcs taking most of there power from the 12v line then converting rather than using the 3.v and 5v lines like pre pentium 4's did.... in other words you'll be fine (as long as you have enough pci power connectors

[Allen B.]

How strapped are you for money?  If it's a new build I'd use all new parts.  It's fine, but it's also 6-7 years old.  

[Stefan Payne]

21 minutes ago, Arktius said:

Hi guys,

 

I'm planning to buy a Ryzen 3000er in the near future. I would like to continue using my current PSU (700 Watt be quiet! Straight Power E9 Non-Modular 80+ Gold), but I have heard that it is already too old and I should consider buying a new PSU. The reason is that my PSU does not support atx 2.4. I have not heard much about this in general, but maybe you did. 

God I hate the E9 because its a downgrade from the E8, wich was DC-DC, the E9 was Groupregulated again. IF the E8 never existed, the E9 would have been OK. But it did...

 

But no, your E9 is up to ~7,5 years old, not made for modern GPUs, it is possible that it won't even work with modern Graphics cards without Problems.

So I'd replace it.

16 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

stolen from Tom's Hardware:
 

 

I think you're fine.

I think you're wrong because the age of a PSU is an important factor to think about.

Especially when combining old PSU with modern Hardware, its asking for trouble and incompatibilities...

[Stefan Payne]

9 minutes ago, Deep Fried Mars Bar said:

all the revisions since atx 2.0 which was brought out to deal with modern pcs taking most of there power from the 12v line then converting rather than using the 3.v and 5v lines like pentium 4's did.... in other words you'll be fine (as long as you have enough pci power connectors

There is more to it than that...

 

For example the Haswell requirements.

 

Or the "Race to Idle" Powersaving Mechanisms of modern GPU...

[Arktius]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

But no, your E9 is up to ~7,5 years old, not made for modern GPUs, it is possible that it won't even work with modern Graphics cards without Problems.

 

 

I have a RX 570 installed and it runs fine more or less. I have problems connecting a monitor and a TV each with different resolutions and probably FPS-rate, but I believe that the psu is not the reason.  

[tarfeef101]

3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

God I hate the E9 because its a downgrade from the E8, wich was DC-DC, the E9 was Groupregulated again. IF the E8 never existed, the E9 would have been OK. But it did...

 

But no, your E9 is up to ~7,5 years old, not made for modern GPUs, it is possible that it won't even work with modern Graphics cards without Problems.

So I'd replace it.

I think you're wrong because the age of a PSU is an important factor to think about.

Especially when combining old PSU with modern Hardware, its asking for trouble and incompatibilities...

I'd wait for it to actually die or have a problem before replacing it. 

Fearing age for the sake of age is foolish. A good product made to last is just that. A good product made to last. If this was well made (and I make no claims about that), there shouldn't be a problem. it seems to be working fine for OP right now, that much we do know.


Also I find it amusing that you claim it'll have issues with GPUs but OP is changing the CPU (and therefore platform). 

[Stefan Payne]

9 hours ago, Arktius said:

I have a RX 570 installed and it runs fine more or less. I have problems connecting a monitor and a TV each with different resolutions and probably FPS-rate, but I believe that the psu is not the reason.  

Correct, that is not the PSU.

That's something different.

 

Thing is that you might have to get a new PSU anyway...

The most likely things to experience:
a) Electronics noise from the PSU that are really not nice

b) random shutdowns (=PSU Switches off)

c) random freezes, especially while surfing the Internet or Desktop

d) Random reboots in various situations.

That is what might happen and point to the PSU. WIth the age, it might make sense to look for a new PSU and replace it before Zen2 is released at, allegedly, end of next month.

7 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

I'd wait for it to actually die or have a problem before replacing it. 

Yeah and in the meantime cause reboots, switches off and other stuff, so that you in the end need a new PSU anyway.

 

So you just wasted shipping cost for no reason.

 

Quote

Fearing age for the sake of age is foolish.

NO, risking your hardware with an old PSU, when a new, decent one is far less than 100€.

And you know there might be Trouble with the old PSU in one way or another.

 

You don't seem to be into PSU much and go off you believes about PSU.

Quote

A good product made to last is just that. A good product made to last. If this was well made (and I make no claims about that), there shouldn't be a problem. it seems to be working fine for OP right now, that much we do know.

Yes, there is as the load changes!!

 

So you're saying that a Seasonic P-660 is not a good/well made Product because it don't work with VEGA64 out of the box, right???

 

I don't claim that. I know that old PSU with new stuff causes Problems because when the PSU was designed, there was no Haswell, there was no Kepler. There was no hard transients like today.

 

Wich is why I'd replace the PSU with something newer...

 

Especially since we're talking about something around the 10 Year Mark.

When in the time of PSU was it a good idea to use a 10 year old PSU?
It never was...

Quote

Also I find it amusing that you claim it'll have issues with GPUs but OP is changing the CPU (and therefore platform). 

...wich is a similar situation because more modern CPUs also have power saving mechanisms that are very hard on the PSU.

 

With the new Plattform (=CPU) is it so hard to believe that a new GPU will follow??

Why not prepare for that? Why risk having problems??
Why risk to have a useless PC because you cheaped out on a PSU??

And no, that doesn't have to do with quality, that has to do with things changing...

[Arktius]

6 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

Thing is that you might have to get a new PSU anyway...

The most likely things to experience:
a) Electronics noise from the PSU that are really not nice

b) random shutdowns (=PSU Switches off)

c) random freezes, especially while surfing the Internet or Desktop

d) Random reboots in various situations.

 

1

I don't have these problems at the moment, but I'll keep it in my mind in case these problems occur. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

NO, risking your hardware with an old PSU, when a new, decent one is far less than 100€.

 

1

Far less than 100€? A quick search for a new PSU gave me different results. (80-120€)

[Stefan Payne]

11 minutes ago, Arktius said:

Far less than 100€? A quick search for a new PSU gave me different results. (80-120€)

Where are you from, what were you looking at??

 

[tarfeef101]

11 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

Yeah and in the meantime cause reboots, switches off and other stuff, so that you in the end need a new PSU anyway.

 

So you just wasted shipping cost for no reason.

I'm sorry when did OP say that was happening?

Oh. they didn't. Get your head out of your butt dude. I know you want to feel like a PSU elitist or something, but don't tell people to waste money if they don't need to. You might have the $$ to upgrade when you feel like something is "too old", but don't project that on others. If OP has something that works, isn't causing issues, and is actually totally fine, don't feed them false information. 

Yes, if they're having issues symptomatic of PSU failure, they should look into that. But they're not, it works fine, and will probably still be fine when they get their new platform. 

[Mattias Edeslatt]

@tarfeef101, do you buy a new car and move over your old engine because it still works? Build a house and move over the old roof because it ain't leaking?

 

There are better things to save on than a PSU if he is upgrading and not buying all things new. If you haven't have any trouble using 5-7+ years old PSU:s with brand new hardware, good for you, but why risk an investment on $4-500 with something that can make the components literally go up in smoke? It is a better idea to not buy a new case and run the setup straight on the bench (if you can't use your old case) than use an old PSU that also is using and old and not good standard for PSU:s?

 

The PSU can last many years to come with the same system, but a new system can use different workloads like @Stefan Payne is pointing out can cause it to crap out, it was not built with those specs in mind and dust, heat and old age takes out its tolls.

 

It's like buying an old low mileage car from someone driving nice and easy and start driving it like a racer, it might have worked fine but won't last long when you start using and abusing it.

[tarfeef101]

44 minutes ago, Mattias Edeslatt said:

@tarfeef101, do you buy a new car and move over your old engine because it still works? Build a house and move over the old roof because it ain't leaking?

 

There are better things to save on than a PSU if he is upgrading and not buying all things new. If you haven't have any trouble using 5-7+ years old PSU:s with brand new hardware, good for you, but why risk an investment on $4-500 with something that can make the components literally go up in smoke? It is a better idea to not buy a new case and run the setup straight on the bench (if you can't use your old case) than use an old PSU that also is using and old and not good standard for PSU:s?

 

The PSU can last many years to come with the same system, but a new system can use different workloads like @Stefan Payne is pointing out can cause it to crap out, it was not built with those specs in mind and dust, heat and old age takes out its tolls.

 

It's like buying an old low mileage car from someone driving nice and easy and start driving it like a racer, it might have worked fine but won't last long when you start using and abusing it.

But this isn't a cheap piece of crap pulled out of a 10 year old Dell tower. It's 80+ Gold rated, made by a reputable company, and working fine. 

These products have built-in protection mechanisms. And for a reason. If eventually a FET or cap dies, they're designed not to just shoot a million amps or volts into your system, or catch fire. 

Yes, these do have finite lifespans. But if you don't use as much of that lifespan as you could, well you're just lighting money on fire. 

Saying that a new CPU is a "different workload" you have to account for is frankly laughable. The man is going from drawing 12V on the EPS to drawing 12V on the EPS. As long as the 12V rail can deliver the current being asked, it'll be fine. if not, then when we know the current ratings of these CPUs, OP can make that choice. Or if his PSU dies, then sure. But why not wait to figure that out? It's a power supply, not a ticking time bomb. That's what diablotek is for

[Quadriplegic]

14 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

But this isn't a cheap piece of crap pulled out of a 10 year old Dell tower. It's 80+ Gold rated, made by a reputable company, and working fine. 

These products have built-in protection mechanisms. And for a reason. If eventually a FET or cap dies, they're designed not to just shoot a million amps or volts into your system, or catch fire. 

Yes, these do have finite lifespans. But if you don't use as much of that lifespan as you could, well you're just lighting money on fire. 

Saying that a new CPU is a "different workload" you have to account for is frankly laughable. The man is going from drawing 12V on the EPS to drawing 12V on the EPS. As long as the 12V rail can deliver the current being asked, it'll be fine. if not, then when we know the current ratings of these CPUs, OP can make that choice. Or if his PSU dies, then sure. But why not wait to figure that out? It's a power supply, not a ticking time bomb. That's what diablotek is for

Gold rating and being made by reputable company have ZERO leverage.

Lifespan isn't determined just yb how long the PSU works. Group regulated PSUs are widely regarded as completely outdated in this day. You know, one of reasons being failing to deliver 12V on the rail in some occasions

Something like PP11 500W will cost him around 60-65€, that's not a very big investment.

[Mattias Edeslatt]

7 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

But this isn't a cheap piece of crap pulled out of a 10 year old Dell tower. It's 80+ Gold rated, made by a reputable company, and working fine. 

These products have built-in protection mechanisms. And for a reason. If eventually a FET or cap dies, they're designed not to just shoot a million amps or volts into your system, or catch fire. 

Yes, these do have finite lifespans. But if you don't use as much of that lifespan as you could, well you're just lighting money on fire. 

Reputable company, yes. But I trust @Stefan Payne when he says it is not a great unit and it has worse specs/topology than its predecessor. You may not agree with him but he knows a thing or two about PSU:s so he is not just talking BS. And if you have reading in this section of the forum you know that he is a great supporter of Be Quiet!, but as he also likes to state, even they make some shitty products, just like Corsair, or Seasonic, or EVGA....

 

7 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Saying that a new CPU is a "different workload" you have to account for is frankly laughable. The man is going from drawing 12V on the EPS to drawing 12V on the EPS. As long as the 12V rail can deliver the current being asked, it'll be fine. if not, then when we know the current ratings of these CPUs, OP can make that choice. Or if his PSU dies, then sure. But why not wait to figure that out? It's a power supply, not a ticking time bomb. That's what diablotek is for

Where did I say that just a CPU is a different workload? There are more then a CPU to make a new system... I talk about a new system as a whole, with a new generation of MB, chipsets, new generation of CPU and GPU. Newer generations of hardware doesn't mean it works like a eight or ten year older generation.

 

Find some eight to ten year old MB, CPU, GPU that are new old stock, sure, there is no difference, at all, despite they are "new". But I am talking about newer generation(s) that have evolved over the years. 

 

But yes, I guess that if you find a ten year old PSU that are NOS, then you buy it for $20 and throw it to good use with your new $800-$1200 CPU, MB, RAM and GPU, because, hey, it's new.... what can go wrong...

 

But you are right, 12 V are 12 V.... but a PSU might not be designed for one-sided workloads on the 12V rail and lack protections for when you do, like older PSU:s or topologis. 

[tarfeef101]

26 minutes ago, Mattias Edeslatt said:

Reputable company, yes. But I trust @Stefan Payne when he says it is not a great unit and it has worse specs/topology than its predecessor. You may not agree with him but he knows a thing or two about PSU:s so he is not just talking BS. And if you have reading in this section of the forum you know that he is a great supporter of Be Quiet!, but as he also likes to state, even they make some shitty products, just like Corsair, or Seasonic, or EVGA....

 

Where did I say that just a CPU is a different workload? There are more then a CPU to make a new system... I talk about a new system as a whole, with a new generation of MB, chipsets, new generation of CPU and GPU. Newer generations of hardware doesn't mean it works like a eight or ten year older generation.

 

Find some eight to ten year old MB, CPU, GPU that are new old stock, sure, there is no difference, at all, despite they are "new". But I am talking about newer generation(s) that have evolved over the years. 

 

But yes, I guess that if you find a ten year old PSU that are NOS, then you buy it for $20 and throw it to good use with your new $800-$1200 CPU, MB, RAM and GPU, because, hey, it's new.... what can go wrong...

 

But you are right, 12 V are 12 V.... but a PSU might not be designed for one-sided workloads on the 12V rail and lack protections for when you do, like older PSU:s or topologis. 

You might be talking about an entire system, but OP isn't. And the OP is kinda the point of their post.

If someone wants to provide information showing how the OP's PSU LACKS the protections that prevent a blown cap or fet, or other failure from hurting your components, feel free. But all I have seen thus far is "it's old get rid of it cause it's old". 


I have no issue with someone presenting the argument that something is worth of replacement because it poses danger to your components. That would be excellent advice. But that's not what's been presented. 

[tarfeef101]

34 minutes ago, Quadriplegic said:

Gold rating and being made by reputable company have ZERO leverage.

Lifespan isn't determined just yb how long the PSU works. Group regulated PSUs are widely regarded as completely outdated in this day. You know, one of reasons being failing to deliver 12V on the rail in some occasions

Something like PP11 500W will cost him around 60-65€, that's not a very big investment.

Gold rating does mean something. 80+ has requirements for safety in addition to just efficiency. 

Yes, group regulated PSUs have been known to not be able to deliver full power on the main rail. Which, believe it or not, while definitely being a problem, won't kill anyone's stuff. So OP can simply see if that is an issue when the time comes, and spend money if it is. 

I'm not saying not to upgrade, no matter what. I'm saying see if you need it first. 

[Stefan Payne]

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

But this isn't a cheap piece of crap pulled out of a 10 year old Dell tower. It's 80+ Gold rated, made by a reputable company, and working fine. 

That is irrelevant.

 

At no place in time were you able to even use a 10 year old PSU with Hardware. That is just somewhat possible recently.

But even than, its not a good idea because the PSU was not made for modern hardware, is already old and at the end of its life.

SO he needs a new PSU in a year or two anyway...

 

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

These products have built-in protection mechanisms.

...wich can also fail and don't protect against Ripple. There is no "Overripple" Protection.

Also the under/over voltage protection stuff is rather loose.

On 12V its often at 9V or less.
If you're lucky, somewhere in the 10V Range.

 

It doesn't protect against everything.

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

And for a reason. If eventually a FET or cap dies, they're designed not to just shoot a million amps or volts into your system, or catch fire. 

No, that can happen, though if the right cap dies, it just switches off (luckily). But if the wrong cap dies, it continues running and you see the two 7 segment LEDs flickering, wich aren't supposed to flicker at all.

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Yes, these do have finite lifespans. But if you don't use as much of that lifespan as you could, well you're just lighting money on fire. 

How do we know how much life is left in a device??

And how do you test for it?

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Saying that a new CPU is a "different workload" you have to account for is frankly laughable.

If you don't understand something, pls feel free to ask what they mean and why they think that...

 

Because the power saving mechanisms, especially on AMD Side, were getting more efficient, wich increased the stress for the CPU.

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

The man is going from drawing 12V on the EPS to drawing 12V on the EPS. As long as the 12V rail can deliver the current being asked, it'll be fine.

...if you ignore the way the power is drawn...

But that is the thing I'm trying to tell you that the way the power is drawn changed massively in the last 10 years, while still on 12V, it is more transientheavy than it was in the past, where it was more constant and the CPU has a couple of states.

Modern CPU don't have that and change their frequency constantly, even in gaming...

 

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Or if his PSU dies, then sure.

...wich always has the possibility of taking out the componens connected to it, wich is why you don't want to do that and might want to replace the PSU before you experience problems...

 

28 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

But why not wait to figure that out? It's a power supply, not a ticking time bomb. That's what diablotek is for

An old PSU is playing russian roulette with your hardware.

THe probability that it causes Problems increases with the age difference between the PSU and the components...

 

So why not replace it and prevent those Problems??
If you get new stuff and it doesn't work, that's not a good start!

[Stefan Payne]

35 minutes ago, Mattias Edeslatt said:

But you are right, 12 V are 12 V....

Not really.

There are at least 3 different forms of 12V.

12V AC, 12V DC and pulsed DC.

And also you can have 12V DC with some significant AC on top of that (not that we have perfect DC but with highest end PSU we're pretty close).

[seon123]

4 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Gold rating does mean something. 80+ has requirements for safety in addition to just efficiency. 

Sauce?

5 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Yes, group regulated PSUs have been known to not be able to deliver full power on the main rail

That's not the issue with group regulated PSUs. The issue is that the voltages will go out of spec during unbalanced loads. 

[Stefan Payne]

 

6 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Gold rating does mean something.

Correct.

That the PSU should be able to archieve a certain Efficiency.

Should because there are some PSU from less reputable Companies that are listed as 80plus Gold but sold with 80plus Bronze (at best) inside.

So no, it doesn't really mean that.

6 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

80+ has requirements for safety in addition to just efficiency. 

Where did you get that?
ANy proof for this claim?

 

I haven't seen anything about that.

And seen 80plus GOLD PSU fail due to minor rails overload.

 

6 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Yes, group regulated PSUs have been known to not be able to deliver full power on the main rail. Which, believe it or not, while definitely being a problem, won't kill anyone's stuff.

...depending on the Load it is entirely possible to force the PSU Voltage far out of spec...

That might look somewhat like this:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/11/12/evga-750n1-750w-power-supply/4/

http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/11/26/evga-450bt-450w-power-supply/4/

And that's still fairly good...

 

Other PSU can also be around 13V max:

https://www.computerbase.de/2017-07/cooler-master-cougar-xfx-zalman-netzteil-test/3/#abschnitt_spannungsregulation

 

6 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

So OP can simply see if that is an issue when the time comes, and spend money if it is. 

...or he can order the PSU with the rest and save shipping cost.

If you get something via cash on delivery, because you want it NOW, you pay up to 13€ Shipping.

Yeah, totally makes sense to save a couple of bucks for the PSU and then pay double on shipping. Absolutely...

 

6 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

I'm not saying not to upgrade, no matter what. I'm saying see if you need it first. 

You're saying to see if the PSU causes Trouble and then wasting another day or two (or more) with a possible problematic system that might or might not run very well...

 

While we know that there is a pretty decent risk of there beeing issues with the PSU.

The most likely things are PSU switching off (OCP trips) and the PSU whining with the new system.

[tarfeef101]

20 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

So no, it doesn't really mean that.

Where did you get that?
ANy proof for this claim?

 

...depending on the Load it is entirely possible to force the PSU Voltage far out of spec...

 

...or he can order the PSU with the rest and save shipping cost.

If you get something via cash on delivery, because you want it NOW, you pay up to 13€ Shipping.

Yeah, totally makes sense to save a couple of bucks for the PSU and then pay double on shipping. Absolutely...

 

You're saying to see if the PSU causes Trouble and then wasting another day or two (or more) with a possible problematic system that might or might not run very well...

 

While we know that there is a pretty decent risk of there beeing issues with the PSU.

The most likely things are PSU switching off (OCP trips) and the PSU whining with the new system.

• I read it at some point. Perhaps my information source was wrong. That is possible. But I've seen that more than once so I was confident in saying it. If that's not the case, that's on me. 
• Rather bold of you to assume free shipping doesn't exist in a world where amazon exists. In the countries I've been in, this hasn't really been a concern. Given OP never said where they are from, I chose not make any assumptions on the matter. They are, of course, able to decide if shipping is a problem for them and factor that in. But I prefer to present information and let them make connections if need be, not make assumptions I don't tell them I made and lead them to misinformed choices

 

More importantly:

• Yes. I am saying that. Because despite what people might be claiming here, 1 CPU/mobo, even a good few years old, is not a substantially different load than a brand new one. If OP had issues right now, I'd say yeah, replace it. But it's totally fine right now. What reason is there to expect issues with a new platform? Is it possible? Absolutely. But likely? I don't think so. 
• How do you know there is a "pretty decent risk"? What is so substantially different between their current system's power needs and the theoretical new one's that makes this a "pretty decent" chance? 
• If the PSU hits OCP or introduces instability due to poor regulation, then that's fine. Nothing got hurt. And OP has to wait a day or two to get a new system. But if it doesn't, OP saved some decent cash. Which, given the fact they bothered asking and their specs, is probably a relevant factor.