Latest Windows 7 and 10 updates reportedly making systems run slower - Windows Defender a suspect

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

News just in, old operating systems have some issues with new updates,  fixed expected within the week.

Well I was more just commenting that it's literally the same problem, just different wording used to describe it. The local Regional Council where I live got nuked by it because they use Sophos, they had a very bad day lol. After the update gets installed and the system reboots, reboot is required like any other updates, it takes roughly 1.5 hours to login. Bad part for them is they also used Sophos on all their servers.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well I was more just commenting that it's literally the same problem, just different wording used to describe it. The local Regional Council where I live got nuked by it because they use Sophos, they had a very bad day lol. After the update gets installed and the system reboots, reboot is required like any other updates, it takes roughly 1.5 hours to login. Bad part for them is they also used Sophos on all their servers.

 Some issues are really bad and some are just annoying, either way it still happens, it's basically par for the course and nothing is going to stop people from trying to lay all the blame at MS's feet and carry on like they did it on purpose.

 

Those nasty evil MS employees who deliberately let an issue of this magnitude go past untested.

[Delicieuxz]

15 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The other topic is about the computers freezing after installing the update and rebooting, it's the same thing other than Windows 10 not being mentioned. However there isn't exactly wide spread reports for Windows 10 unlike Windows 7 and 8.

If the topic is the particular update, then this is maybe the same issue (if your estimation is correct) but expanded to included another 2 updates and another OS.

 

If the topic is the issues and where they're found, then this thread is distinguished from the other. Like this OP's article points out:

Quote

Yesterday, we reported that there is a conflict between the latest Windows updates and Sophos, Avast, and Avira antivirus software that is causing Windows to freeze or updates to not finish installing.

 

Since then, we have received emails and seen reports from users who have stated that this week's updates are also causing Windows to become very slow. The reports we have seen have been from users running Windows 7 and Windows 10.

 

Feel free to merge them. But, my thinking was that people with Windows 10 who checked the other thread aren't going to check again to see the stuff that applies to them since the other OP specifies Windows 7, and that the other thread targets a specific issue and specific update, whereas this OP talks about further stuff. Maybe @matt-fr can edit their OP and title to reflect these additional issues and updates, including for Windows 10.

[leadeater]

26 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

expanded to included another 2 updates and another OS.

The two update KBs for Windows 7 are actually the same update, one is the Security Only update and the other is the Monthly Rollup. Both contain the April security update but the Rollup contains all previous updates as well. The different KBs really are only applicable to organizations running WSUS though because the Rollup is the one delivered by Microsoft through online Windows Update, that's why it's the one mentioned the most in articles.

 

In total there is 6 relevant KBs excluding Windows 10. 2 for Windows 7, 2 for Windows 8.1/Server 2012 R2 and 2 for Windows Server 2012 those being the April Security Only update and the Monthly Rollup.

 

Basically the only new part would be Windows 10 and only for 1809 which I'm not too sure how wide spread that is. I'm thinking it's actually the same issue because all the updates mention a security update to the Windows Kernel and I bet, since NT Kernel has a lot of legacy, it's the same code change that is common across all current Kernel versions.

 

Quote

Security updates to Windows Datacenter Networking, Windows Server, the Microsoft JET Database Engine, Windows Kernel, Windows Input and Composition, Microsoft Scripting Engine, Windows App Platform and Frameworks, Windows Storage and Filesystems, Microsoft Graphics Component, Windows Virtualization, Windows MSXML, Windows SQL components, and Microsoft Edge.

 

Quote

Microsoft and ArcaBit have identified an issue on devices with ArcaBit antivirus software installed that may cause the system to become unresponsive upon restart after installing this update.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-nz/help/4493509/windows-10-update-kb4493509

 

Quote

Security updates to Windows Kernel, Windows Server, Graphics Component, Windows Input and Composition, Windows Datacenter Networking, Windows MSXML, and the Microsoft JET Database Engine

 

Quote

Microsoft and Sophos have identified an issue on devices with Sophos Endpoint Protection installed and managed by either Sophos Central or Sophos Enterprise Console (SEC) that may cause the system to become unresponsive upon restart after installing this update.

 

Microsoft and Avira have identified an issue on devices with Avira antivirus software installed that may cause the system to become unresponsive upon restart after installing this update.

 

Microsoft and Avast have identified an issue on devices running Avast for Business, Avast CloudCare, and AVG Business Edition antivirus software after you install this update and restart. Devices may become unresponsive at the login or Welcome screen. Additionally, you may be unable to log in or log in after an extended period of time.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/4493472/windows-7-update-kb4493472

 

As you can see both update have made Kernel changes and both have documented issues with AV software. Like I said in the other thread AV software makers are notorious for violating proper standards so I'm in no way surprised to see an update that has Kernel changes having problems like this.

 

The reason why I questioned if we need this topic is because there will be cross talk about the issue between the topics about the same things where one topic would be much cleaner.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

As you can see both update have made Kernel changes and both have documented issues with AV software. Like I said in the other thread AV software makers are nutritious for violating proper standards so I'm in no way surprised to see an update that has Kernel changes having problems like this.

 

yet Ironically not a very healthy practice.

[Delicieuxz]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The reason why I questioned if we need this topic is because there will be cross talk about the issue between the topics about the same things where one topic would be much cleaner.

I guess merge them. I thought the topics were more differentiated than it sounds like they are.

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

yet Ironically not a very healthy practice.

Dunno what you're talking about, it clearly says 'notorious'

 

Thought I ninja edited that before anyone saw it, damn you auto correct lol.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Dunno what you're talking about, it clearly says 'notorious'

 

Thought I ninja edited that before anyone saw it, damn you auto correct lol.

Like I can talk, my posts are nutritious for misplaced letters, improper use of plurals and failing to add the "n't" to the end of words like would, could and should.  Which makes for some hard reading I am sure.

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

I guess merge them. I thought the topics were more differentiated than it sounds like they are.

Dunno, maybe just alter the topic to be Windows 10 also impacted? I'm expecting to see more complaints about it for Windows 10 1809 users come out as the update waves are released to more people, though Microsoft may have already blocked it for all the mentioned AV products thus far just to be safe. The other one is very much Windows 7/8 and I don't disagree with a new topic for Windows 10 giving people a heads up about a potential issue that explains it, like being 1809 only as the 1803 and below builds did not get the Kernel update in the April update.

 

Edit:

On that point anyone on older builds thinking about updating to 1809 check your AV because after the upgrade you will have this April update and it might break your system.

[Techstorm970]

Y'know, Microsoft, creating an antivirus program that acts like a virus kinda defeats the purpose.

[Slurs Gang]

[Technous285]

7 hours ago, leadeater said:

On that point anyone on older builds thinking about updating to 1809 check your AV because after the upgrade you will have this April update and it might break your system.

I'm personally still waiting for a non-beta BIOS update from MSI that includes newer microcode for my i7-5820K to not get BSOD's with HT enabled, or having to disable HT, so I can get on to 1809 (currently on 1803, so  still good... for now), since something MS changed between 1803 & 1809 causes problems for (at least) Skylake-E chips on MSI X99 boards (and apparently other Intel-powered MSI boards, but mainly X99 from what I can find).

 

Sure there's a beta BIOS update currently available, but I'm weary of using it on my main (and basically only) Windows system because of its current status, aside from the fact one shouldn't NEED to have to update their BIOS just to run new software. *conveniently puts aside the fact haven't updated the BIOS since getting the board around Feb 2016, and still on the last version before the update for Broadwell-E came out, since it's been stable enough for daily usage as-came >.>*

[matt-fr]

8 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

Maybe @matt-fr can edit their OP and title to reflect these additional issues and updates, including for Windows 10.

I edited my topic to include/link yours.

 

The cause is the same, the "April update", but the problems from each topic are not.

My topic is focused on the "doesn't boot" problem, and yours on the "slowing down" problem.

 

If a moderator wants to merge the two topics, feel free to do it.

But now that one topic links to the other, it doesn't seem necessary.

 

[leadeater]

42 minutes ago, Technous285 said:

I'm personally still waiting for a non-beta BIOS update from MSI that includes newer microcode for my i7-5820K to not get BSOD's with HT enabled, or having to disable HT, so I can get on to 1809 (currently on 1803, so  still good... for now), since something MS changed between 1803 & 1809 causes problems for (at least) Skylake-E chips on MSI X99 boards (and apparently other Intel-powered MSI boards, but mainly X99 from what I can find).

 

Sure there's a beta BIOS update currently available, but I'm weary of using it on my main (and basically only) Windows system because of its current status, aside from the fact one shouldn't NEED to have to update their BIOS just to run new software. *conveniently puts aside the fact haven't updated the BIOS since getting the board around Feb 2016, and still on the last version before the update for Broadwell-E came out, since it's been stable enough for daily usage as-came >.>*

There are other ways to update the CPU microcode than using the motherboard BIOS update that includes it.

[Technous285]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

There are other ways to update the CPU microcode than using the motherboard BIOS update that includes it.

I may be slightly crazy, and been screwing around with PC hardware for most of my life (like the past 25-odd years since I was a kid), but no way am I gonna try and update the microcode without an official BIOS update including it, if only for the fact the (non-beta) BIOS update should have been confirmed by the manufacturer to be safe and unlikely to brick my system, and I'm kinda on tight budgets at the moment regarding sourcing PC parts in case something goes screwy with my main system (want to get it to 2021 before building a new system preferably).

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Technous285 said:

I may be slightly crazy, and been screwing around with PC hardware for most of my life (like the past 25-odd years since I was a kid), but no way am I gonna try and update the microcode without an official BIOS update including it, if only for the fact the (non-beta) BIOS update should have been confirmed by the manufacturer to be safe and unlikely to brick my system, and I'm kinda on tight budgets at the moment regarding sourcing PC parts in case something goes screwy with my main system (want to get it to 2021 before building a new system preferably).

The other ways include certain Windows Updates that includes the microcode update and you can also do it using Linux, even a Live Boot iso will suffice. BIOS updates aren't required to do it nor until recently even the way it was mostly done.

https://www.howtoforge.com/spectre-and-meltdown-cpu-vulnerability-test-and-microcode-update-on-linux/

https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/install-update-intel-microcode-firmware-linux/

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/microcode

 

The standard tools ensure the correct microcode is loaded and done so correctly.

 

Edit:

It can literally be a simple as this

sudo apt-get install intel-microcode

Then reboot

[Doobeedoo]

Hmm, my Windows Defender is off since I have ESET and MBAM though.

[Chunchunmaru_]

16 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

14 hours ago, Arika S said:

i'm guessing the "other/unknown" is iOS and Android? since there is no way in hell they could have market share similar to MacOS without it being known what it is

I'm not 100% sure, but my supposition since I don't know how they pick this data, and assuming it's via browser, they could have decided to include even undetected platforms as "unknown"

Which can be obtainable by using browsers with some privacy extensions which presumably hides the user agent OS data, or again also by phone browsers who have "desktop mode" enabled, which again changes the user agent (which shows as a Desktop OS iOS or Android for example, so those may be put in there as well)

That's the only way I could explain this

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

On 4/14/2019 at 1:57 AM, Arika S said:

i'm guessing the "other/unknown" is iOS and Android? since there is no way in hell they could have market share similar to MacOS without it being known what it is

Android's market share is larger than Windows'

 

 

 

On 4/14/2019 at 3:02 AM, Delicieuxz said:

I wondered if it's some variants of Linux.

Maybe I'm living inside a filter bubble, but the percentage of people that I see switching over from Windows to Linux far exceeds the percentage/increase of Linux users I see in any marketshare graph.  So I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of this "unknown" is indeed Linux.

[mr moose]

20 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

Android's market share is larger than Windows'

 

  Hide contents

 

Maybe I'm living inside a filter bubble, but the percentage of people that I see switching over from Windows to Linux far exceeds the percentage/increase of Linux users I see in any marketshare graph.  So I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of this "unknown" is indeed Linux.

If androids market share is larger than windows then the "other" category on that graph can't be android because it is smaller.

 

I dare say given it's size it's probably some knockoff/customised version of windows/linux that doesn't report anything. Identity block sort of thing.

 

 

[leadeater]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I dare say given it's size it's probably some knockoff/customised version of windows/linux that doesn't report anything. Identity block sort of thing.

OS/2, HP-UX, AIX or some other even weird ones.

[RejZoR]

21 hours ago, Technous285 said:

I'm personally still waiting for a non-beta BIOS update from MSI that includes newer microcode for my i7-5820K to not get BSOD's with HT enabled, or having to disable HT, so I can get on to 1809 (currently on 1803, so  still good... for now), since something MS changed between 1803 & 1809 causes problems for (at least) Skylake-E chips on MSI X99 boards (and apparently other Intel-powered MSI boards, but mainly X99 from what I can find).

 

Sure there's a beta BIOS update currently available, but I'm weary of using it on my main (and basically only) Windows system because of its current status, aside from the fact one shouldn't NEED to have to update their BIOS just to run new software. *conveniently puts aside the fact haven't updated the BIOS since getting the board around Feb 2016, and still on the last version before the update for Broadwell-E came out, since it's been stable enough for daily usage as-came >.>*

The latest BIOS update for MSI X99 Gaming 7 causes all sorts of stability problems for me. I had to downgrade it and just rely on Windows microcode patching to do the security job. MSI is pretty bad at BIOS updates. ASUS would've released 5 more updates where MSI simply doesn't seem to give a damn. And it's been almost a year since they released that broken BIOS...

[mr moose]

23 minutes ago, leadeater said:

OS/2, HP-UX, AIX or some other even weird ones.

The share of "other" is almost as big as mac, I wouldn't have thought those altogether would be enough to equal mac.

[BuckGup]

Interesting explains the issues I have been having recently.  

[Technous285]

14 hours ago, RejZoR said:

The latest BIOS update for MSI X99 Gaming 7 causes all sorts of stability problems for me. I had to downgrade it and just rely on Windows microcode patching to do the security job. MSI is pretty bad at BIOS updates. ASUS would've released 5 more updates where MSI simply doesn't seem to give a damn. And it's been almost a year since they released that broken BIOS...

Well, back in December MSI released a beta BIOS for my X99A SLI Krait Edition board, that apparently fixes enough of the microcode to let 1809 install with HT enabled and no BSOD's... would rather not risk it borking my main (and basically only) system.

 

I woulda been tempted by an ASUS board when I built this system, but those tend to be 25-50% more expensive (in AUD anyway) than an MSI board of similar specs until you're comparing the Overkill to Overkill in terms of spec-loaded top-end boards.