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LukeSavenije

Firefox on Windows 10 ARM

I think it is very exciting. We need competition in the field. With native mature web browser, a key element always missing in Microsoft past attempt in trying to bring ARM based CPU to the masses, this is a key for success. Added to that the new Edge, Chrome and Chromium, it delivers to the 'average consumer' solid web browsers to choose from, to allow them to have a great experience with their ARM based system. Qualcomm seems to be able to do some nice strive forward in making their chip quiete capable for running WIndows 10.

 

The next big challenge is price. 

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Sources: @AluminiumTech , The Verge, Tweakers (Dutch)

 

Mozilla is releasing an ARM version of its Firefox browser today for Windows 10. While Microsoft and Google have been working together on Chromium browsers for Windows on ARM, Mozilla has been developing its own ARM64-native build of Firefox for Snapdragon-powered Windows laptops. We got an early look at this version of Firefox late last year, and it seemed to fare well on an ARM laptop with a dozen tabs open.

 

Quote

This new build of Firefox is available today as part of Mozilla’s beta channel for the browser for anyone with an ARM-powered Windows 10 laptop to test. That might not be a lot of people right now, but Mozilla has been working on its Firefox Quantum technology to optimize Firefox for the octa-core CPUs available from Qualcomm. This should mean the performance is relatively solid, while maintaining all of the regular web compatibility you’d expect from Firefox.

Chromium ARM64 builds seem relatively close, too. A developer successfully built and ran a version of Chromium on an ARM-powered laptop recently, demonstrating that it should also perform well on these devices. It’s not clear when Google or Microsoft will release ARM versions of their Chromium browsers, though. Microsoft is currently testing its new Chromium-powered Edge browser with developers, ahead of a release across Windows, Mac, and ARM-powered versions of Windows 10.

 

ARM laptops actually seem to take off!


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because you totally can't run firefox on a raspberry pi using Linux. 

 

oh wait... 


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Posted · Best Answer

I think it is very exciting. We need competition in the field. With native mature web browser, a key element always missing in Microsoft past attempt in trying to bring ARM based CPU to the masses, this is a key for success. Added to that the new Edge, Chrome and Chromium, it delivers to the 'average consumer' solid web browsers to choose from, to allow them to have a great experience with their ARM based system. Qualcomm seems to be able to do some nice strive forward in making their chip quiete capable for running WIndows 10.

 

The next big challenge is price. 

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Neat, Firefox getting on more platforms is pretty nice :D


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On 4/11/2019 at 2:01 PM, handymanshandle said:

Meh. 

Waiting for an ARM version of Vivaldi.

There are ARM builds of Vivaldi, but they only run on Linux right now. Windows versions will have to wait on the Chromium Project and Microsoft. Not sure if that answers your question or not.


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On 4/11/2019 at 7:39 PM, firelighter487 said:

because you totally can't run firefox on a raspberry pi using Linux. 

 

oh wait...  

Yeah... Both Chromium and Firefox have had ARM versions since long back. The difference now is that they can run on Windows.

 

Sadly, Windows on ARM is just a shady attempt by Microsoft to lock people into using the Microsoft Store. I am 99.9% sure their goal with moving Windows to ARM is to make it like iOS, fully reliant on UWP and the store, where they get a full control over everyone's device, what you can/can't install, and so on.

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1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Yeah... Both Chromium and Firefox have had ARM versions since long back. The difference now is that they can run on Windows.

 

Sadly, Windows on ARM is just a shady attempt by Microsoft to lock people into using the Microsoft Store. I am 99.9% sure their goal with moving Windows to ARM is to make it like iOS, fully reliant on UWP and the store, where they get a full control over everyone's device, what you can/can't install, and so on.

the difference is that iOS was designed from the ground up to run on phones and tablets. Windows isn't. the flop of Windows 8 and Windows phone showed us that. 

 

i can't wait until this product, like everything Microsoft has done recently, sucks so bad that it will push people away from Microsoft. 


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21 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Sadly, Windows on ARM is just a shady attempt by Microsoft to lock people into using the Microsoft Store. I am 99.9% sure their goal with moving Windows to ARM is to make it like iOS, fully reliant on UWP and the store, where they get a full control over everyone's device, what you can/can't install, and so on.

You can install any porgrams you want on Windows 10 on ARM. VLC desktop Win32 application, for example, for WIndows 10 on ARM, is only availible on their website. https://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html

(Click on the down arrow and pick ARM64)

 

Windows 10 on ARM is exactly like the normal Windows 10 but compiled for ARM (64-bit) CPUs.

 

Windows on ARM is not the OS to complete against low-cost Chromebooks, actually.

Microsoft is working on a new OS, of different name, that will take that place.

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53 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

the difference is that iOS was designed from the ground up to run on phones and tablets. Windows isn't. the flop of Windows 8 and Windows phone showed us that. 

 

i can't wait until this product, like everything Microsoft has done recently, sucks so bad that it will push people away from Microsoft. 

Windows Phone was designed for phones. Windows Phone 7 was based on Windows CE.

Windows Phone 8 was partially using Windows 8 Kernel, but that is about it.

Windows 10 Mobile share the same core kernel of Windows 10, and a few components arround it. But, it is still an OS of its own.

 

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47 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

You can install any porgrams you want on Windows 10 on ARM. VLC desktop Win32 application, for example, for WIndows 10 on ARM, is only availible on their website. https://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-windows.html 

(Click on the down arrow and pick ARM64)

 

Windows 10 on ARM is exactly like the normal Windows 10 but compiled for ARM (64-bit) CPUs. 

 

Windows on ARM is not the OS to complete against low-cost Chromebooks, actually.

Microsoft is working on a new OS, of different name, that will take that place. 

Simple yes or no question.

 

Can you, today, buy a Windows laptop which uses an ARM processor, and install any program you want straight from the Internet without having to change some settings in the OS or unlock things?

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If it were Chrome it would take more than just the ARM.


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7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Simple yes or no question.

 

Can you, today, buy a Windows laptop which uses an ARM processor, and install any program you want straight from the Internet without having to change some settings in the OS or unlock things?

I mean it depends on the device.  On an rpi 3 you're not really running full Windows 10 you're running the IoT version.  I'd assume it would be the same for other ARM based devices considering how taxing Windows 10 is.  Unless they changed it, but I haven't really gotten into that in quite some time.  So, I could be wrong.


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On 4/13/2019 at 1:41 AM, GoodBytes said:

We need competition in the field

Apple has a contender https://9to5mac.com/2019/02/21/mac-marzipan-arm-next-year-maybe/ 

 

I’m surprised Microsoft didn’t even bothered designing their own ARM chips. 


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1 minute ago, captain_to_fire said:

I’m surprised Microsoft didn’t even bothered designing their own ARM chips. 

I imagine Intel will be very cross at any sign of Microsoft becoming hardware-independent from them o_o (I'm just guessing so...)

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9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Simple yes or no question.

 

Can you, today, buy a Windows laptop which uses an ARM processor, and install any program you want straight from the Internet without having to change some settings in the OS or unlock things?

Yes, out of the box. Here is the latest information that I have on this whole OS. This may change as everything is based on leaks:

  • Windows 10 S was an stop gap by Microsoft (it was treated that way since day 1 internally) just to have something for schools and students, mainly. This is just until its new OS under the codename Polaris, comes out. That one is a ground up designed for low cost, ARM based system and will not carry any legacy things. It will share Microsoft OneCore, and the new CShell that is in the works. It will not carry Shell32. For a while, the company was not decided if they wanted to add Win32 app support and to what extent. However, as the company is seeing that Qualcomm chip to be quite capable under Windows 10 ARM, Microsoft is implementing Win32 support in it as a component, that said, as it will pass through a translation layer, it will need to be UWP wraped. No info, if you can install apps outside of the store like you can on normal Windows 10.
    Again, Microsoft does not plan to call it "Windows". However, with Microsoft fine marketing team we may get: "Microsoft Win Does with OneDrive Live Essential, Plus! 2020 with media Center Pack - powered by Windows 10 NT technology in S Mode!" for all we know. Hopefully, Microsoft got competant marketing team this time arround, I don't have my hopes up, and we will get "Windows 10 Lite - S Mode", even thaugh the whole company didn't want to call it "Windows". Now "Polaris" is more tahn just this. It is the ability for Microsoft to add/remove all sorts of components to have an OS ready with a new type of devices that comes into market, and not ave to delay the product only to wait 3 years or so to have something or rush something half-ass out the door. Instead, they can have an OS ready, capable of running on the device, and just focus on the interface as a new "mode" in CShell that they can enable when the target device is detected. Will this idea work? Only time will tell. But on paper it sounds nice.
     
  • Despite the above, plans are still on the way for the full version of Windows 10 that we have now. You need a complete, competant and mature OS for a lot of demanding tasks. The big idea is that many things from the OS are shared between devices. So support cost is minimal. Windows 10 is just OneCore, with all the legacy stuff and newer components enabled.
     
  • Windows 10 on ARM is just Microsoft efforts in bringing in competition to the PC space that is Intel controlled epsecially in the OEM space. Already, due to Intel inability to deliver CPUs, PC sales where down, as manufcatures could not meet demands, and Intel has been given preferential treatment to sleect OEMs over others (probably they decided to pay more, if it was my guess) - https://www.extremetech.com/computing/289417-gartner-idc-pin-blame-on-intel-for-pc-markets-continued-downturn 
    Sadly, AMD mobile chips, are still not copetitive and only found on really budget systems. Bringing ARM in, will help. Microsoft efforts in Windows 10 on ARM, was that, essentially,m the company just pick "ARM" in Visual Studio, and hit the "Build" button. This allows to have the OS at minimal maintenance cost for the company. So if it works, great! If it doesn't, no big deal. But despite the weak sales of ARM devices running Windows so far, the company is in full steam ahead in continuing support. It has the latets updates of Windows 10 as they came out with everyone else, the new Edge is still planned to have ARM version, and work is already on the way for Chrome and Chromium for an ARM version.

 

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56 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I mean it depends on the device.  On an rpi 3 you're not really running full Windows 10 you're running the IoT version.  I'd assume it would be the same for other ARM based devices considering how taxing Windows 10 is.  Unless they changed it, but I haven't really gotten into that in quite some time.  So, I could be wrong.

No Windows 10 on IoT is a separate OS by itself. It shares Windows 10 "OneCore" and other components including UWP platform, but like Windows 10 Mobile, it is really a separate OS.  I know it is confusing as some parts of it are shared and other not, but that is the reality of things.

 

We are talking about Windows 10 full on ARM, so in your case, it would be getting this experience:

It is a project that Ras Pi 3 community is working on. Trying to get Windows 10 ARM up and running on it. Still missing GPU drivers so CPU is being hit hard, and videos are no go, as shown in the video, but Internet and storage now works to some degree. will probably take a very long time, unless official support comes in by either Microsoft or the ones behind Raspberry Pi.

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32 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes, out of the box. Here is the latest information that I have on this whole OS. This may change as everything is based on leaks:

I think you missed the criteria that it had to b e a laptop you could buy in the store today. I am not interested in speculation based on leaks and what might happen with Windows on ARM in the future.

 

Can I go out today, and buy an ARM laptop running Windows, and install a program from the Internet without having to change some setting or unlock something in the OS?

 

Not talking about speculative future products here. I am not talking about some community driven project to get Windows running on a RPi or whatever either. I am asking about the products on the shelves today. Can my mom go out to BestBuy and buy an ARM laptop right this moment, this hour, and then install a program not from the Store without having to change some settings in the OS?

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56 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I think you missed the criteria that it had to b e a laptop you could buy in the store today. I am not interested in speculation based on leaks and what might happen with Windows on ARM in the future.

I am talking present and the future.

 

56 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Can I go out today, and buy an ARM laptop running Windows, and install a program from the Internet without having to change some setting or unlock something in the OS?

Yes.

 

56 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Not talking about speculative future products here. I am not talking about some community driven project to get Windows running on a RPi or whatever either. I am asking about the products on the shelves today. Can my mom go out to BestBuy and buy an ARM laptop right this moment, this hour, and then install a program not from the Store without having to change some settings in the OS?

That was not aimed at you. Did I quote you? You constently look for fights aren't you?

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29 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes. 

Really? All ARM based Windows laptops I can find and heard about come in S mode out of the box. Has that changed or is your argument that S mode isn't locked down and you don't have to change any settings to for example install programs from outside the store?

Can you please link me to an ARM based laptop that I can buy today, which doesn't come with S mode enabled out of the box?

 

For those wondering what S mode is, this is a quote directly from Microsoft on how they describe it:

Quote

it allows only apps from the Microsoft Store, and requires Microsoft Edge for safe browsing.

 

29 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

That was not aimed at you. Did I quote you? You constently look for fights aren't you? 

I was just clarifying what kind of product I was talking about, in case you were planning on referring me to the Raspberry Pi project or something along those lines.

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2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Really? All ARM based Windows laptops I can find and heard about come in S mode out of the box. Has that changed or is your argument that S mode isn't locked down and you don't have to change any settings to for example install programs from outside the store?

Can you please link me to an ARM based laptop that I can buy today, which doesn't come with S mode enabled out of the box?

 

For those wondering what S mode is, this is a quote directly from Microsoft on how they describe it:

Like I said, what OEM does, is their buisness. If you get Windows 10 on ARM, it isn't set in S Mode.

I am not going to monitor all the OEMs in the world on what they decide the out of the box experience should be, and keep log on all of this just for you.

 

Vote with your wallet if it bugs you. Simple as that.

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12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Like I said, what OEM does, is their buisness. If you get Windows 10 on ARM, it isn't set in S Mode.

I am not going to monitor all the OEMs in the world on what they decide the out of the box experience should be, and keep log on all of this just for you.

 

Vote with your wallet if it bugs you. Simple as that.

It's speculation on my side, but I am fairly sure that Microsoft requires OEMs selling WoA devices to ship them in S mode. I haven't been able to find a single ARM powered Windows laptop that doesn't come in S mode. When all OEMs start doing some specific setting (like not allowing turning off secure boot) then it's usually because Microsoft mandate it. 

 

Anyway, if you don't know of any ARM laptop with windows that comes without S mode out of the box sold today then why did you say you could buy it? You don't know if you can buy it so the answer to my yes or no question should have been "I don't know". 

 

 

And voting with my wallet is such a terrible argument. It doesn't work. I have voted with my wallet on plenty of things and it doesn't matter when 99% of consumers are clueless. 

"vote with your wallet" is just a bad attempt at shifting the burden of actions away from companies and onto consumers. It's a free pass to let companies do whatever despicable actions they want because it's apparently the consumers' responsibility to stop them from doing bad things, not the company themselves. 

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18 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

the difference is that iOS was designed from the ground up to run on phones and tablets. Windows isn't. the flop of Windows 8 and Windows phone showed us that. 

 

i can't wait until this product, like everything Microsoft has done recently, sucks so bad that it will push people away from Microsoft. 

Windows Mobile was a very good spec built phone OS, what killed it was basically developer support and trying to re-enter a saturated market where there was no consumer demand.  


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6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It's speculation on my side, but I am fairly sure that Microsoft requires OEMs selling WoA devices to ship them in S mode. I haven't been able to find a single ARM powered Windows laptop that doesn't come in S mode. When all OEMs start doing some specific setting (like not allowing turning off secure boot) then it's usually because Microsoft mandate it. 

 

Anyway, if you don't know of any ARM laptop with windows that comes without S mode out of the box sold today then why did you say you could buy it? You don't know if you can buy it so the answer to my yes or no question should have been "I don't know". 

My facus was only on the actual release of Windows 10 on ARM. I'll pay closer attention to OEMs. I looked right now, and I can't find systems on OEM websites running Windows 10 ARM on the systems model that had a ARM varient. 

 

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