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VegetableStu

[Update x2: reversed with statement] Shell Shock as Wargaming DMCAs Thingiverse users' tank model submissions

https://ritastatusreport.live/2019/04/15/wargaming-sloppy-dmca-takedowns-against-3d-tank-modellers/

 

Apparently WG has already withdrawn their claim and all of the models should be back but they will continue to track down and DMCA models that actually infringe their IPs like models directly ripped off from the game, models using images from the game and models infringing their trademarks (which all can be found from Thingiverse right now). Someone apparently wanted to make their job a lot easier and send way too broad takedown notice.

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Posted (edited) · Original PosterOP

Final(?) update: DMCA request withdrawn; models reinstated and pending proper manual review (Thanks @Thaldor!)

https://ritastatusreport.live/2019/04/15/wargaming-sloppy-dmca-takedowns-against-3d-tank-modellers/

Quote

Wargaming:

Thank you for raising attention and awareness, we reviewed the actions and followed up the processes internally. The models reported on Thingiverse may have contained the titles, trademarks, logos and other protected intellectual property from World of Tanks and other Wargaming products. When the protected content is removed from the items then the claim will be removed, and the person will be free to re-upload the modified material. To this end, please contact us directly through Thingiverse indicating the link to your materials, and we will swiftly review your notice and respond.

 

I have further updates with regards to the OP:

 

Wargaming faces a lot of infringement on its intellectual property, including vehicle models and trademarks, e.g., World of Tanks®. IP protection is important for us. There was a significant amount of infringing materials found on Thingiverse that were reported recently. We requested Thingiverse to react to these infringements of our intellectual property. It also came to our attention that other content has been impacted from these actions. Due to the substantial amount of this content, we will revoke all the claims related to World of Tanks® so that none of the legal materials will be blocked. However, we will continue to work with Thingiverse to review all the models and ensure non-infringing material remains freely available. No material you have should use any Wargaming Intellectual property without permission.

 

Good.

 


 

Topic update:

Quote

https://www.fabbaloo.com/blog/2019/4/13/much-more-on-the-world-of-tanks-thingiverse-incident

 

You may be noticing the images sprinkled throughout this post. You’ll note that none of them are tanks, let alone tanks similar to those in World of Tanks. And certainly none were ripped from World of Tanks. Bergman explained to us that all of his 3D models were of his own original design.

 

This is quite disturbing, as the method of infringement detection is clearly flawed. Wait, let’s correct that — it’s not just flawed, it is wrong. Searching for text might be a way to perhaps find some hints about items that might be associated, but obviously must be inspected to see if they actually are infringing.

 

That was clearly not done in this case.

also: the actual DMCA request text from article above

Spoiler

oGwD14g.jpg

 

.... wow. that's worse than I expected. for a dedicated studio who took great lengths for their research, I expected better of their lawyer department ._.

 

Topic update update: actual copyright lawyer weighs in (MVP @TechyBen for tweeting into his view. thanks!) (spoilered for page length reasons)

Spoiler

 

 

Original Post starts below


 

Preface 1: I don't play WoT or follow it as close as most history buffs or WoT players do, so take anything outside of the source in this OP as my interpretation of the situation.

Preface 2: Model Ripping is definitely a thing (arguably as easy as copying vertex data off the GPU while running any 3D program). You get 3D resource sites hosting T-Poses and whatnots of models from various games and most obscure ones usually evade public scrutiny.

 

That being said:

I'll be adding proper news links whenever any one of them covers it. the post is less than a day old as of posting

https://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27419

 

(World of Tanks is a tank-combat arena game that consists of tanks from the past.)

 

image transcript:

Quote

As some of you may already know, Yesterday Wargaming World Limited (the makers of World of Tanks) Ran through thingiverse and DMCA'd a large portion of the tank and military equipment models on the site.
Unfortunately both I (TigeragerAce1945) and Bergman lost a huge portion of our models in the sweep.

Fortunately we still possess the files however it is unlikely that we will be able to reverse these DMCA's and restore the packs there.


While can't entirely speak for Bergman, I am convinced that thingiverse is no longer a site that I wish to associate with and I'm currently exploring other options for hosting my designs.

I warn anyone who has designs on thingiverse to check to insure if they are still intact.

 

And one last thing, I'm not the type of person to lecture people on their choice of entertainment, but for anyone who does monetarily support Wargaming World Limited or their games, I ask that you keep this event in mind the next time you decide to do so.

 

Maybe it's time we all went somewhere that's more fit for our community... 

 

Sincerely,

A Guy Who Had the Audacity to Give Something Away for Free

 

what's not established (except for a few users (see quote)) is if most of the model submissions were direct rips of the game, or completely made from publicly available images and references.

(side note: there are tanks in the game that does not exist at all. mainly as rule-of-cool but could also be used as a copyright trap if it appears unironically elsewhere. which begs the side question if any of the thingiverse removals included such tanks.)

(also side note: most tanks in the game (that do exist at some point IRL) had specific proportions altered, possibly to evade licensing issues and possibly (again) propagate as copyright traps)

 


A bit of technical detail:

normally model ripping (to be republished online as-is) is frowned upon (to put it pretty damn lightly), but in cases where adapting a model for 3D printing or IRL crafts, most could argue that it's transformative work, as 3D models are horribly inefficient in games if they were to be modelled (not sliced yet) as if it's for 3D printing (i.e. strictly manifold models)

 

conversely, 3D printers can not print non-manifold objects, especially of such made for game engines or projects

 

This may cause issues to the maker community as a whole as well (look at fanbases and prop communities of Blizzard. And Lucasfilm. And most movies. And etc)


 

so few issues:

  • what is the current standing on making works referencing or replicating historical objects?
    • does the creator of the object in today's medium own the right to their creation? or would they be considered public domain and has the rights associated with those laws/licenses?
    • do modern day companies stemming from past manufacturers own the rights to the likeliness of historical objects? (e.g. does Mitsubishi own the right to the looks of the tanks they produced in WWII? if so, to what extent?)
  • do companies/individuals who have the right over specific digital media own the right to physical replications (or its instructions) when they don't have the immediate means to do so?
  • considering that thingiverse is a 3D printing repository/service, can wargaming claim copyrights of prints that ARE based on their representation
    • also, can they prove that those being pulled are based of their representation, or were the submissions truly of original work

 

unfortunately I came into this topic cold, so I don't have any before-and-after comparisons of thingiverse pages (for reference as to what got removed and the comparisons for likeliness), so if there's any updates for such details I'll add it in later

 


 

EDITx1: to add: word on the street is that within the numerous models being removed there are definitely uploads that's basically unprintable (read: ripped), but for the most part the person in question of the quoted message did his own work and effort. going to need confirmation of said honest cases

 

Edited by VegetableStu
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23 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

so few issues:

  • what is the current standing on making works referencing or replicating historical objects?
    • does the creator of the object in today's medium own the right to their creation? or would they be considered public domain and has the rights associated with those laws/licenses?
    • do modern day companies stemming from past manufacturers own the rights to the likeliness of historical objects? (e.g. does Mitsubishi own the right to the looks of the tanks they produced in WWII? if so, to what extent?)
  • do companies/individuals who have the right over specific digital media own the right to physical replications (or its instructions) when they don't have the immediate means to do so?
  • considering that thingiverse is a 3D printing repository/service, can wargaming claim copyrights of prints that ARE based on their representation
    • also, can they prove that those being pulled are based of their representation, or were the submissions truly of original work

These are all good questions, but I don't think anyone here is actually qualified to answer these. Would need an actual copyright-lawyer to answer this stuff and even then, the laws vary from country to country, so what goes in e.g. the U.S. might not apply here. This would be a lovely topic for a Youtube-video, IMHO, though probably not on LTT.


Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

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If they did in fact rip files from the game, and re-use them I back wargaming on this. I don't know the cost of tanks, but ships cost well over a 100k to research through archives and create the models for World of Warships. But I think a cease and desist would have been more appropriate, but that have to protect their assets  to prevent competitors from ripping their models for knockoff games.


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2 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

These are all good questions, but I don't think anyone here is actually qualified to answer these. Would need an actual copyright-lawyer to answer this stuff and even then, the laws vary from country to country, so what goes in e.g. the U.S. might not apply here. This would be a lovely topic for a Youtube-video, IMHO, though probably not on LTT.

I don't know how copyright protection works on all these old WW era vehicles, and I know WG typically goes to government sources for a lot of the designs. Also a lot of the governments that produced said vehicles no longer exist and creates further grey areas.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, shermantanker said:

If they did in fact rip files from the game, and re-use them I back wargaming on this. I don't know the cost of tanks, but ships cost well over a 100k to research through archives and create the models for World of Warships.

what about if they were adapted for 3D printing (basis of OP topic) or pepakura? (ignoring the fact some of them are of original research and effort)

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3 minutes ago, shermantanker said:

If they did in fact rip files from the game, and re-use them I back wargaming on this. I don't know the cost of tanks, but ships cost well over a 100k to research through archives and create the models for World of Warships. But I think a cease and desist would have been more appropriate, but that have to protect their assets  to prevent competitors from ripping their models for knockoff games.

Obviously, if the models were just ripped straight off the game, then that's a clear copyright-violation. But doing a model yourself from scratch? Now that is the thing I would really love for a proper lawyer to discuss.


Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

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Just now, VegetableStu said:

what about if they were adapted for 3D printing (basis of OP topic) or pepakura? (ignoring the fact some of them are of original research and effort)

I guess it would depend on how modified they were and when fair use comes into play.


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You wouldn’t download a tank


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

You wouldn’t download a tank

You wouldn't download RAM, either!

 

 

...what, you would? Well, shit.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
26 minutes ago, shermantanker said:

I guess it would depend on how modified they were and when fair use comes into play.

for the most part, adapting a game model for 3D printing involve welding off open surfaces, creating geometry for extra details, boolean adding intersecting objects, checking for manifold topology and whatnot (if it's a coloured print, it'll depend on how, e.g. multi-filament or paper-layer printing).

there's a lot more if articulation is involved.

 

for the most part a lot of effort on the printer's end would be required

 

as for fair use, same argument with fan works? they're not making a game clone, so that end's out of the question

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Don't upload shit you don't own. This is common practice.


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22 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

for the most part, adapting a game model for 3D printing involve welding off open surfaces, creating geometry for extra details, boolean adding intersecting objects, checking for manifold topology and whatnot (if it's a coloured print, it'll depend on how, e.g. multi-filament or paper-layer printing).

there's a lot more if articulation is involved.

 

for the most part a lot of effort on the printer's end would be required

 

as for fair use, same argument with fan works? they're not making a game clone, so that end's out of the question

Were the models in question being sold? I not clear on that.


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Wargaming has invested millions into these models, WG has every right to DMCA people using them without permission. 


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57 minutes ago, shermantanker said:

don't know how copyright protection works on all these old WW era vehicles

Wargaming hires people to laser scan, model, and rig the tanks/ships/planes for their games. They do not own the copyright to the vehicle, they own the copyright to the model. Using the model without permission is a direct violation of copyright law. 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, shermantanker said:

Were the models in question being sold? I not clear on that.

the models themselves (.stl) are free, although usually optimised for a specific 3D printer(?)

 

4 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Wargaming has invested millions into these models, WG has every right to DMCA people using them without permission. 

Quote

There are a lot of WoT tanks on Thingyverse but these weren't WoT rip offs. They included lots of vehicles that aren't in WoT like trucks, APC's and even WWI tanks. Also they didn't have any of the paper Panzer's that WG likes releasing.

so...

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2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Wargaming has invested millions into these models, WG has every right to DMCA people using them without permission. 

I agree but that is IF the models are actually ripped and are different than the original as noted that it might have a part scaled to not match exact proportion.

If it's the same proportion as the IRL tank then that person and WG are both responsible for copyrighting the manufacturer.

 

We still need more info on if it was accurate representation or ripped of an inaccurate representation of the tanks.

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TBH it could just be that some people made the models themselves based off the models in the game. but IDK what I'm doing

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I feel Gaijin should be looking to something like this as well.


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2 hours ago, WereCatf said:

You wouldn't download RAM, either!

 

 

...what, you would? Well, shit.

Yes, I damn well would if I could!


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Inb4 3d model pack on torrent source 


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3 hours ago, Rune said:

Don't upload shit you don't own. This is common practice.

Kinda the whole point of the discussion, where the public domain starts and stops and where handmade renditions of these machines is actually legal. The case definitely isn't so clear cut.


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2 hours ago, fasauceome said:

Kinda the whole point of the discussion, where the public domain starts and stops and where handmade renditions of these machines is actually legal. The case definitely isn't so clear cut.

Basically the legal case would come down to this:

 

1. If it's a vehicle that is old enough where the design is now public domain (possibly WW1/WW2 era - if anyone knows, please confirm), then it's 100% legal for you to create your own 3D model of said vehicle for any purpose you wish (3D printing, video game, to sell, whatever).

1a. If you steal someone elses specific 3D model, however, that might well infringe upon their own copyright.

 

2. If the design is still under copyright/patent (not in public domain), then it's only legal for you to use said design under fair use, which has a very narrow usage.

 

In either case, if you took, say, WoT's design specifically, and just ripped it off? That's not legal pretty much regardless. 3D printing a design you stole isn't fair use.

 

Now people have said that WoT has made their designs with very specific (as in, not accurate to real life) proportions changed in very specific areas - this would give them an additional layer of defense, if someone copied their exact design.

 

With all of that in mind? If WoT are DMCA'ing peoples designs that are not direct copies of WoT designs? Not cool.


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Interesting!

Way back when, Cryptic(studio behind Star Trek Online) was pretty DMCA happy, but only to a point.
It seemed that once a model had been renamed and the edgeflow/general topo of the model was changed, they wouldn't nuke it.
Of course none of that matters now that they've partnered with a stable print manufacturer for their ships.

343i and Microsoft, on the other hand, have been fantastic about the various game-model-based Halo props floating around open source land, and even those reproductions by prop makers.

In any case, if you're doing this: Making the model manifold is just the last step. Subdiv that shit. kids. Learn about edge creasing(or software equiv) and clean then smooth out your parts before thinking about bool'ing everything together.
 


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