The EU says Steams current store geoblocking system will break the law when it changes in 2020, asks them to change it before that happens

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Thaldor said:

As far as I know they don't. Also they don't change game versions depending on your country after purchase (like the Wolfenstein doesn't install or change to the German version if you have bought it from elsewhere and move to Germany). There's only that store location bind and then key bind (when you're bound to Australia, you cannot activate Russian/EU/NA keys) and only that key bind is now in question.

So it's traditional geo blocking, preventing you from buying a product from another country. 

 

 

 

[Thaldor]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So it's traditional geo blocking, preventing you from buying a product from another country.

Basicly yes. But in this case I would highlight that it's two different geoblocks; One binds you account to an area and second one binds key to the purchase area. And the second one is the problem for EU because it prevents free movement of digital goods within EU (for example my friend in Poland cannot give me a game in Steam because Finland and Poland are in different Steam Store areas and games my friend buys are locked to the EU2 (I would remember there's two EU areas for Steam and EU2 is a lot cheaper than EU1) area and cannot be activated in the EU1 area accounts).

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Thaldor said:

Basicly yes. But in this case I would highlight that it's two different geoblocks; One binds you account to an area and second one binds key to the purchase area. And the second one is the problem for EU because it prevents free movement of digital goods within EU (for example my friend in Poland cannot give me a game in Steam because Finland and Poland are in different Steam Store areas and games my friend buys are locked to the EU2 (I would remember there's two EU areas for Steam and EU2 is a lot cheaper than EU1) area and cannot be activated in the EU1 area accounts).

So the question is does that prevent you from moving your own games when you do or just from trading between countries.  Because one is BS and the other presents a problem of economies. 

 

IF steam offer a product cheaper in a country because they are poorer and the consumer demand is not there unless the product is cheaper,  then by removing geo blocking, steam will likely have one price for the entire EU, and you can bet your arse it won't be the cheaper price.

[LAwLz]

38 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

This is just another greedy thing the EU is doing, and I doubt prices would stay the same without enforced pricing adjustments, game publishers are going to want to charge as much as possible.

Publishers do NOT want to charge as much as possible. It is in their best interest to keep prices low in certain counties. If publishers wanted equally high prices everywhere they would already have that. 

 

Also, how the hell can you even say this is a greed thing from EU? This won't make them any more money. To call this a greedy thing shows utmost ignorance on the subject. Think before you post. 

[Thaldor]

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So the question is does that prevent you from moving your own games when you do or just from trading between countries.  Because one is BS and the other presents a problem of economies. 

 

IF steam offer a product cheaper in a country because they are poorer and the consumer demand is not there unless the product is cheaper,  then by removing geo blocking, steam will likely have one price for the entire EU, and you can bet your arse it won't be the cheaper price.

As I tried to point out, there's already G2A, Kinguin and other services that offer same Steam keys cheaper. Also IIRC boxed Steam games have global keys (not bound to any store area) in them, so nothing stops me from buying boxed games from anywhere and activating them on my account which is bound to EU1 (this is basicly the loophole that G2A sellers (who don't steal their keys) use, they reside in Russia/EU2 and buy boxed games with global keys and sell those). And so far Steam hasn't done anything for that because probably it's only a minority of Steam users who use those services and removing the key geobinding wouldn't change the things much, because user accounts would still be binded to the store areas with higher and lower prices.

 

If the key trading/reselling would destroy publisher/developer economies, then it would have already destroyed them many times.

 

E: From reading that EU press release. They start with that there should be no geoblocking at all in the Steam but later talk only about "activation keys". For me those "activation keys" are the product keys that are inside the boxes and what stores like Humble provide and what you get when you buy a game as a gift. Those keys have geoblocking in them if you buy them yourself from Steam (as a gift) and they cannot be activated in other store areas than where your account is bound during the purchase (I believe Humble has special deal with Steam to get global keys or they get them from the publishers).

[mr moose]

33 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

As I tried to point out, there's already G2A, Kinguin and other services that offer same Steam keys cheaper. Also IIRC boxed Steam games have global keys (not bound to any store area) in them, so nothing stops me from buying boxed games from anywhere and activating them on my account which is bound to EU1 (this is basicly the loophole that G2A sellers (who don't steal their keys) use, they reside in Russia/EU2 and buy boxed games with global keys and sell those). And so far Steam hasn't done anything for that because probably it's only a minority of Steam users who use those services and removing the key geobinding wouldn't change the things much, because user accounts would still be binded to the store areas with higher and lower prices.

which is all good and well, but that's also a small subset of users.

 

Quote

If the key trading/reselling would destroy publisher/developer economies, then it would have already destroyed them many times.

We can't say  that it would destroy or have any effect until it iis actually removed and the entire steam store becomes open to the effects of such a change.

Quote

E: From reading that EU press release. They start with that there should be no geoblocking at all in the Steam but later talk only about "activation keys". For me those "activation keys" are the product keys that are inside the boxes and what stores like Humble provide and what you get when you buy a game as a gift. Those keys have geoblocking in them if you buy them yourself from Steam (as a gift) and they cannot be activated in other store areas than where your account is bound during the purchase (I believe Humble has special deal with Steam to get global keys or they get them from the publishers).

The issues I have here is that there are basically only two places you can get information on about the economics of geo blocking, the EU's in house study and industry lobby group studies. Neither of which I am inclined to give any weight.  I get that some geo blocking is outright anti consumer (I have experienced it myself), but not all of it is and the economic effects are rarely ever what is predicted in political committee rooms.   It will be interesting to watch where this goes from here.  I suspect Steam will simply find either a loop hole or run with a one size fits all approach to pricing. 

 

Also on an unrelated side note: Geo blocking is common in streaming services like netflix, because various distributors have the licenses to distribute in different countries, and because the internet basically has no boundaries, streaming services directly undermine those distribution agreements.  How would the EU ruling on product boundaries not completely devalue distribution rights for individual companies?

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Because of the many varied currencies across Europe and their varying values Steam employs a geoblocking system where keys bought in certain regions can only be used in those regions, this is done to prevent users from buying cheap games from other regions.

I've read about that on a German Site as well.
And you might want to rephrase it.

 

As I understand it from reading it there, its only inside the European Union and the countrys that are members of the EU and not outside of Euroland.

So that would make sense.

 

However, since Zenimax was mentioned, it can only mean that they are talking about the Wolfenstein Games.

They even have a specialized German Version without Nazi Imagery and even some changes in the Story (Names and so on).

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Publishers do NOT want to charge as much as possible. It is in their best interest to keep prices low in certain counties. If publishers wanted equally high prices everywhere they would already have that. 

 

Also, how the hell can you even say this is a greed thing from EU? This won't make them any more money. To call this a greedy thing shows utmost ignorance on the subject. Think before you post. 

The publishers or Steam wouldn't push for higher prices, but they would more likely just increase it to the highest valued currency for everyone, as Steam or publishers won't want to take the hit on their revenue. It's pure greed to be charging everyone the same price when the point of geoblocking is to make games more affordable.

[Stefan Payne]

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

The Pound, the Euro, the Swiss Franc, the Danish Krone and the Swedish Krona.

Swiss Franc (schweizer Franken) is not valid because they aren't part of the EU. But also a couple of other Currencies like Hungary and so on.

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Also 1 Euro in Poland is worth more than 1 Euro in Germany because the cost of living is higher.

Ähm, that makes no sense.

The reason for that is different taxes and higher wages.

With  higher wages your work influences the price of a product more, thus it has to be more expensive because you get paid 15€/h instead of 5€/h (something some people don't understand).

 

With the Taxes (VAT); Germany isn't that bad with "just" 19%. Poland has 23% for "normal wares", however for certain food stuff a different tax is applied, wich is 7% in Germany and for example for food and other "daily necessities" like Newspaper.

The bad thing is that it leads to chaos in a restaurant wich needs 2 registers: One for food served (wich is a service, thus 19% and one for takeout (wich is food, thus 7%)....

 

[79wjd]

2 hours ago, poochyena said:

It can still be sold cheaper in poorer regions.

Until enough people start buying keys from those cheaper regions and Valve and publishers alike make less money and unify prices at the price of the most profitable price.

 

Certainly geoblocking wasn't in existence from the get go, it was added to avoid abuse.

[poochyena]

1 minute ago, 79wjd said:

it was added to avoid abuse.

Its not abuse to buy something for the lowest price you can.

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

Until enough people start buying keys from those cheaper regions and Valve and publishers alike make less money and unify prices at the price of the most profitable price.

 

Certainly geoblocking wasn't in existence from the get go, it was added to avoid abuse.

In come cases it was used to artificial inflate the value of a product, but with media being a global thing that tends to happen a lot less.  Like in 2013 when adobe tried to sting Aussies $4300 for the Adobe suite when it was only $2500 in the US. 

 

Fortunately over time such cases have dwindled and the predominate use of geo blocking is to preserve distribution rights (genuine localised services) and to maintain stable prices in economies with largely varying values.

 

What I want to know is, how many people who oppose geo blocking based in the concept of a single global market also oppose the idea of a single global currency and governance?

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, Beowulff83 said:

So what happens if valve doesn't comply?  What if they don't pay the fine's?  Does the EU have any recourse they can do to shut them down in the European market?  Or is it up to the Country's that make up the EU to enforce the policies?  I'm not to sure how this stuff works across the pond.  I know in the States for example marijuana is an illegal substance from the stand point of the federal government. However certain states have legalized marijuana and chose not to enforce the Federal regulations.  Not sure if this is a similar situation or not?

 

Valves funds are handled by the banks which are primarily based in a mix of the UK and the US. Prior to this he EU could if valve refused to pay just directly seize things. After Brexit i'm less sure but i believe there are non-EU related international treaties covering things. ANd it's likely if they did that the EU would revok Valves business license inside the EU meaning they could no longer do business with the EU and banks would refuse to process payments from the EU to Valve and so on and so forth.

[Thaldor]

28 minutes ago, mr moose said:

which is all good and well, but that's also a small subset of users.

 

We can't say  that it would destroy or have any effect until it iis actually removed and the entire steam store becomes open to the effects of such a change.

 

The issues I have here is that there are basically only two places you can get information on about the economics of geo blocking, the EU's in house study and industry lobby group studies. Neither of which I am inclined to give any weight.  I get that some geo blocking is outright anti consumer (I have experienced it myself), but not all of it is and the economic effects are rarely ever what is predicted in political committee rooms.   It will be interesting to watch where this goes from here.  I suspect Steam will simply find either a loop hole or run with a one size fits all approach to pricing. 

Again, it WON'T affect Steam Store directly, because Steam store prices are bound to store areas and user accounts get prices based on which store area the account is bound. As far as I understand, this strictly affects the activation codes which you only can get from either buying the game "as gift" from Steam store or 3rd party stores or when you buy a boxed game. Currently only the directly user bought activation keys are geoblocked while almost all keys gained from boxed games and 3rd party store keys are not (these keys have been on sale for years in services like G2A and others). So only small portition of activation keys are geoblocked and only real thing removing that geoblock would do is to make the life of G2A sellers that much easier that they wouldn't have to order boxes full of games and scan their codes for sale but just buy them from Steam and then resell them. And as easy as it's already to go around that geoblock is, removing it really wouldn't bankrupt any developers, the least those who already sell their games boxed in stores.

 

Also on that note, the price differences within EU aren't that drastic. For example Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice costs 59.99€ (EU), 254.00zl (Poland, 59.15€), 49.99£ (UK, 58.07€), 549.00kr (Norway, 56.79€), 1608₴ (Ukraine, 52.98€) and for comparison 59.99$ (US, 53.45€) or 8208¥ (Japan, 65.46€) or 1999₽ (Russia, 27.30€) (from SteamDB). Within EU we are talking about max. almost 12% price difference, but mostly we talk about 5%, the real price drops come when we go to the global scale and take Russia and far-east to the calculations and we start to see those -50% price differences. For Sekiro the EU1 the sixth most expensive area to buy the game (SteamDB doesn't have EU2 listed, but then again I can be wrong and there is no EU2 any more) and quite probably EU1 countries all have quite the same buying power as US where the game is almost as cheap as it is in Ukraine (from where EU gamers could probably order it as boxed game or just buy from G2A for the same price [1 Google later: "Oh my god, Activision and FromSoftware are going to bankrupt! Global key for Sekiro costs only from 44.50€ to 51.69€ in G2A "]).

 

Quote

Also on an unrelated side note: Geo blocking is common in streaming services like netflix, because various distributors have the licenses to distribute in different countries, and because the internet basically has no boundaries, streaming services directly undermine those distribution agreements.  How would the EU ruling on product boundaries not completely devalue distribution rights for individual companies?

That is then again completely different topic because they are not basicly directly selling goods and distribution rights have always been a bit more complicated matter (like they don't really sell one company the whole distribution rights for EU, but they sell different companies distribution rights for different languages). It's basicly a huge mess that we can leave out with saying streaming services contents aren't classified as goods or services. Just like Steam doesn't need to sell Wolfenstein to Germans, they could just leave Germany out and call it a day and no one would bat an eye (in the case in discussion Steam would be/is breaking EU laws if it would/is stopping Polish person from buying a key which (s)he can write in a letter and send that letter to German friend who can then redeem that key).

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Again, it WON'T affect Steam Store directly, because Steam store prices are bound to store areas and user accounts get prices based on which store area the account is bound. As far as I understand, this strictly affects the activation codes which you only can get from either buying the game "as gift" from Steam store or 3rd party stores or when you buy a boxed game. Currently only the directly user bought activation keys are geoblocked while almost all keys gained from boxed games and 3rd party store keys are not (these keys have been on sale for years in services like G2A and others). So only small portition of activation keys are geoblocked and only real thing removing that geoblock would do is to make the life of G2A sellers that much easier that they wouldn't have to order boxes full of games and scan their codes for sale but just buy them from Steam and then resell them. And as easy as it's already to go around that geoblock is, removing it really wouldn't bankrupt any developers, the least those who already sell their games boxed in stores.

 

Also on that note, the price differences within EU aren't that drastic. For example Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice costs 59.99€ (EU), 254.00zl (Poland, 59.15€), 49.99£ (UK, 58.07€), 549.00kr (Norway, 56.79€), 1608₴ (Ukraine, 52.98€) and for comparison 59.99$ (US, 53.45€) or 8208¥ (Japan, 65.46€) or 1999₽ (Russia, 27.30€) (from SteamDB). Within EU we are talking about max. almost 12% price difference, but mostly we talk about 5%, the real price drops come when we go to the global scale and take Russia and far-east to the calculations and we start to see those -50% price differences. For Sekiro the EU1 the sixth most expensive area to buy the game (SteamDB doesn't have EU2 listed, but then again I can be wrong and there is no EU2 any more) and quite probably EU1 countries all have quite the same buying power as US where the game is almost as cheap as it is in Ukraine (from where EU gamers could probably order it as boxed game or just buy from G2A for the same price [1 Google later: "Oh my god, Activision and FromSoftware are going to bankrupt! Global key for Sekiro costs only from 44.50€ to 51.69€ in G2A "]).

 

That is then again completely different topic because they are not basicly directly selling goods and distribution rights have always been a bit more complicated matter (like they don't really sell one company the whole distribution rights for EU, but they sell different companies distribution rights for different languages). It's basicly a huge mess that we can leave out with saying streaming services contents aren't classified as goods or services. Just like Steam doesn't need to sell Wolfenstein to Germans, they could just leave Germany out and call it a day and no one would bat an eye (in the case in discussion Steam would be/is breaking EU laws if it would/is stopping Polish person from buying a key which (s)he can write in a letter and send that letter to German friend who can then redeem that key).

 

The article states that:

 

Quote

So, for now the commission’s complains only apply to activation codes Valve provides to third-party sellers, but they could target Steam itself in the future.

 

I read that (as many others appear to have), that they are looking at the entirety of steam, meaning it will effect the entirety of the digital online sales and the effects of geo blocking (which is what is actually being discussed here).   If consumers have access to cheaper pricing in another country (through the steam store and not a third party) then that will undermine the current economy of steams business.  How that ends is what people are concerned about.

 

[CarlBar]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

The article states that:

 

 

I read that (as many others appear to have), that they are looking at the entirety of steam, meaning it will effect the entirety of the digital online sales and the effects of geo blocking (which is what is actually being discussed here).   If consumers have access to cheaper pricing in another country (through the steam store and not a third party) then that will undermine the current economy of steams business.  How that ends is what people are concerned about.

 

 

Whilst i semi-agree i feel the need to note the use of "could" in there. They're still considering. It's obviously somthing to be concerned with, (much like the way article 13 could be interpreted). But i think a lot of the fear mongering in this thread ignores a simple fact:

 

Publishers and steam sell enormous numbers of games in countries where they price lower and prices are set there based on what maximises their profits. If they raise prices globally they're going to lose overall profit in every place the price rises in. That means there's a limit to how far they can raise things globally without losing so much in other area that it counteracts the better returns in other areas.

 

And as big as the EU is i very much doubt it represents the majority of valves profits. That puts a severe limit on ow far they can raise prices without it costing them more than raising them by less and the average might actually fall below current EU prices. Valve would take a hit regardless of course, but the effect for the end consumer is a lot more complicated.

 

TLDR: Even if the worst comes to pass simple capitalism means there's a pretty severe limit to how bad it can get because there's a direct and countervailing factor pushing against he worst theoretically possible scenario.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

The publishers or Steam wouldn't push for higher prices, but they would more likely just increase it to the highest valued currency for everyone, as Steam or publishers won't want to take the hit on their revenue. It's pure greed to be charging everyone the same price when the point of geoblocking is to make games more affordable.

Again how is this greed from the EU? The EU won't make any more money from this change. The publishers most likely won't make any more money either since their current price structure with segregation is done so because they want to maximize profit, not from good will. If publishers made more money increasing prices in the currently-cheap regions then they would already have done so. 

 

 

Again, what is your logic behind calling this greedy when basically nobody will make more money from this change, especially not the EU which you called greedy? 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Whilst i semi-agree i feel the need to note the use of "could" in there. They're still considering. It's obviously somthing to be concerned with, (much like the way article 13 could be interpreted). But i think a lot of the fear mongering in this thread ignores a simple fact:

 

Publishers and steam sell enormous numbers of games in countries where they price lower and prices are set there based on what maximises their profits. If they raise prices globally they're going to lose overall profit in every place the price rises in. That means there's a limit to how far they can raise things globally without losing so much in other area that it counteracts the better returns in other areas.

 

And as big as the EU is i very much doubt it represents the majority of valves profits. That puts a severe limit on ow far they can raise prices without it costing them more than raising them by less and the average might actually fall below current EU prices. Valve would take a hit regardless of course, but the effect for the end consumer is a lot more complicated.

 

TLDR: Even if the worst comes to pass simple capitalism means there's a pretty severe limit to how bad it can get because there's a direct and countervailing factor pushing against he worst theoretically possible scenario.

Yes, it's definitely a "could" thing.  I would be surprised if anyone on these forums was clued in enough to be able to consistently predict one way or the other on these matters.

[VanayadGaming]

10 hours ago, Stormseeker9 said:

There is only one currency in Europe.. that’s the euro.. (besides UK with the GBP and CH with Swiss franc)

 

But I say let us! Finding cheapest deal is always rewarding !

There are several currencies in the EU... lots more than those 3 you mentioned

[Mihle]

Do even the buy as a gift feature on Steam have geoblocking?

 

Because I am in Norway, and I have both gifted games to, and received from a Canadian friend just fine without problems.

 

Maybe it's just allowed by Valve because the prices is similar anyway?

[samcool55]

I don't get the hate.

We always said geo-blocking is bad, because it is.

And now we are making the next step to get rid of it, somehow it's bad?

Like, how?

 

How is getting rid of geo-blocking a bad thing?

Like, geo-blocking of real goods like food in the EU doesn't really exist (yes there are a few things out there, but it's not much), so why should it exist in the digital world?

[Delicieuxz]

Regional pricing doesn't bother me. Region-locking the playability of games, however, does. I'm less bothered by prices potentially normalizing higher across Europe than I am by having the playability of games locked to certain regions.

 

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

Do steam stop you from playing your games if you move to another country?   I have never stepped foot outside Australia (with my PC).

I'm not sure if anyone else answered your question yet, but there is an option for publishers to region-lock the launching of games. Most publishers don't use it, but ActiVision do for their newer games. So, someone who buys a newer Call of Duty game on Steam can't play it outside of the region they buy it in.

 

1 hour ago, Mihle said:

Do even the buy as a gift feature on Steam have geoblocking?

 

Because I am in Norway, and I have both gifted games to, and received from a Canadian friend just fine without problems.

 

Maybe it's just allowed by Valve because the prices is similar anyway?

I think that publishers have an option to enable cross-region gifting, or to disable it. It could depend on the game, and it might also depend on which regions you're intending to transfer it between.

[duncannah]

Great, can't wait

[Curious Pineapple]

In another thread, buying Windows 10 licenses cheap from another country was bad, illegal, piracy and worthy of the death sentance. But it's perfectly fine with games?

[RejZoR]

Maybe I haven't bought any of the problematic games, but I only experienced geo blocking once when some game was blocked entirely from even being purchased and the excuse was something with Windows Live for Games not supporting my country or some shit. Other than that I never had problems with any game, even when I bought cheap one from grey market and activated it on Steam.