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Master Disaster

Dr Su will present Zen 2 and Navi at Computex 2019 (May 27th)

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Posted · Original PosterOP
16 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

Can you provide me with regular examples?

Can you provide me with any examples of the NSA spying on people? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it doesn't mean people in the know aren't aware of it. You're asking for examples of something that by it's very nature is done in secret.

 

A certain amount of espionage is expected and accounted for in any product that's being sampled before it's official release. You think Sony and Microsoft don't expect the other to have hands on next gen Dev kits already? Any company sending out pre release samples is very aware the competition is going to see the product and claiming otherwise is very much like the child who thinks nobody can see him because he covers his own eyes.

 


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33 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

Allegedly. Don't pretend you are aware of the amount of espionage companies commit.

Huh, keep your head in the sand if you want but I have experienced it first hand. 

 

27 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

 

Intel had no idea that Zen 1 would be a 50+% increase long before the general public if at all and the specifics of Threadripper were completely out of left field for them. The leaks that are happening are coming from manufacturing partners for things like motherboards which is why they are much more nebulous.

They knew.  They knew a lot more than you or I did and they know lot more than you or I think they know.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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35 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Can you provide me with any examples of the NSA spying on people? Doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it doesn't mean people in the know aren't aware of it. You're asking for examples of something that by it's very nature is done in secret.

 

A certain amount of espionage is expected and accounted for in any product that's being sampled before it's official release. You think Sony and Microsoft don't expect the other to have hands on next gen Dev kits already? Any company sending out pre release samples is very aware the competition is going to see the product and claiming otherwise is very much like the child who thinks nobody can see him because he covers his own eyes.

 

So your proof is that I can't prove it doesn't happen? XD

 

I'm not the one making claims. You're spouting Internet rumors and passing them off as fact. I'm not saying they're definitely false, but claiming they're definitely true is silly.

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Huh, keep your head in the sand if you want but I have experienced it first hand. 

 

They knew.  They knew a lot more than you or I did and they know lot more than you or I think they know.

I have my head in the sand for calling out your appeal to ignorance fallacy?


Make sure to quote or tag me (@JoostinOnline) or I won't see your response!

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Posted · Original PosterOP
30 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

So your proof is that I can't prove it doesn't happen? XD

 

I'm not the one making claims. You're spouting Internet rumors and passing them off as fact. I'm not saying they're definitely false, but claiming they're definitely true is silly.

I have my head in the sand for calling out your appeal to ignorance fallacy?

Where did I offer any proof? I pointed out that asking for proof of something that happens in secret is silly.

 

Honestly the fact you seem to genuinely believe that it doesn't happen says much more about you than what us believing it does says about us.

 

What if I told you that it's highly likely AMD has employees working at Intel and Nvidia, Intel has employees working at AMD and Nvidia has employees working at AMD. When your entire existence depends on knowing as much about your competition as you do about yourself you'd better damn well believe these corporations will do whatever it takes to get that knowledge. Corporate espionage isn't some Hollywood fiction, it's very real and it happens literally every single day. Like I said earlier, large corporations not only expect it but will actually account for it. It's the reason why recipes are kept locked in vaults and why no one person will know everything about products in development.


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1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Honestly the fact you seem to genuinely believe that it doesn't happen says much more about you than what us believing it does says about us.

There's a lot of QS and ES CPUs sold on ebay, after product release and after a decent amount of time. If you're willing they are actually a good buy. More on to the point, with so many of them in existence going to motherboard makers, system integrators like HP/Dell/Lenovo etc detailed information getting to the hands of competitors at some point before release should really be expected. I also don't doubt they get ES samples some way or indirect access to them it's just a matter of when/how soon to make that access matter in a short term sense to counter a new product launch.

 

There's also the common knowledge aspect which the companies are working under the same technological restrictions of things like fab technologies so what's achievable is generally understood and it can come down to how far one company expects the other to push towards the maximum or balance the product to fit within desired parameters like die area for cost and yield reasons. Take Nvidia Volta GV100 for example, that's a product where the absolute maximum of every aspect was undertaken. AMD knows the maximum reticle size TSMC (or any fab really) can do and they know enough about Nvidia's architecture to know in advance the core makeup of such a product but when did they know Nvidia was targeting maximum possible? Probably fairly early since TSMC had to do some rather large customizations that would be hard to keep completely under wraps in a shared fab facility, people talk. 

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1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

Where did I offer any proof? I pointed out that asking for proof of something that happens in secret is silly.

 

 

When you make a claim you need to back it up with proof. Otherwise people are going to call you on your bullshit.  Please look up the appeal to ignorance fallacy.

 

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Honestly the fact you seem to genuinely believe that it doesn't happen says much more about you than what us believing it does says about us.

I never said (or suggested) that. I don't know either way. Neither do you, and you should stop pretending otherwise.


Make sure to quote or tag me (@JoostinOnline) or I won't see your response!

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6 hours ago, mr moose said:

I know a lot of people believe that and that makes it funny,

No, it makes your statement false.

 

Or are you accusing Intel of Espionage?

 

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

but the reality is there is a difference between seeing something coming that you can't do anything about,   and not seeing something coming then not doing anything about it. 

How long did it take for the 6 Cores??
That doesn't look like they were prepared or even knew about it.

Especially with the fab problems, wich is in part due to the more cores and thus larger dies and also designed for maximum utilization of the Fabs with the smaller 4 Core Dies.

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

  If Intel's reaction was to release x299 in all it's messed up iterations and half finished add-on features (at a cost), then they clearly weren't sandbagging and either weren't worried about ryzen or at the very least couldn't do anything about it.

...or they didn't know more than we did and were only projecting and expecting something that wasn't as good as AMD delivered...

 

And thus they released even larger cores to the Consumer, wich they didn't want to and plan, wich also ruined their fab projections and caused utilization beyond 100%.

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

I personally believe Intel had a very good idea what was coming.  Just like AMD know what Nvidia is about to release and when. 

Ähm, no.


Intel didn't know until it was too late.

Intel made their fab for their projected sales of small 14nm/4 Core Dies and some server stuff.

 

Now Intel can't ship, even had to respin a Chipset in the older 22nm process to free up space in the 14nm Fab(s), so that processors can be done instead.


WIth what we know, its absolutely certain that they didn't know more than we did or not much more.

 

Same with nVidia as well.

AMD also didn't know that, if they did, they wouldn't have fired the one that made the VEGA 20 on Desktop...

 

And there are NO LEAKS on AMD's side that are noteworthy, wich then in turn means that they closed their leaks...

 

 

The only source of Information for the other company might only be Partners like MSI, ASUS and co, who might (or might not) get the Chips for valuation purposes.

 


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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8 hours ago, Neftex said:

what are you talking about? theres ton of leaks on zen

You know that you can spread false information and make up some shit to see where its leaking and who leaked it??

 

That's common practice these days and in the last couple of years, AMD has fixed all their leaks.


So the "Leaks" are often not leaks but Speculation. The Information that was released early was rather useless. The early samples were also clocked at around 3GHz or so. 

 

In the end, we didn't know much about the performance until it was officially released.

 

Same with Zen2. What do we know about Zen2?? 
The things we know about Zen is what AMD presented at CES earlier this year and also talked about. Not much more besides that.

 

OK; there was another Leak from a University or something like that, that showed that Rome has even higher AVX Performance than the Competition. 


And that's about it.


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@Stefan Payne dude youre asking for confirmed leaks before the product is released, ofc that doesnt exist. it wouldnt be a leak then.

 

there is a ton of leaks on zen2 but until the product is here ofc we wont know if theyre true or if theyre made up...

 

lastly, it doesnt matter what company the leaker is from. if he has correct information it doesnt matter if he hacked it off some pc or knows a source inside


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Posted · Original PosterOP
8 hours ago, JoostinOnline said:

I never said (or suggested) that. I don't know either way. Neither do you, and you should stop pretending otherwise.

Well you're the only person here naive enough to not believe it happens. Ftr Linus has stated that he knows it happens publicly in the past, I guess he's making up bullshit as well.

 

Fun fact: just because something cannot be proven as true doesn't mean it isn't true.


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41 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Well you're the only person here naive enough to not believe it happens.

The question is not does industrial espionage happen. It is whether Intel's sources were/are good enough to have the precise details that Moose is claiming. Given their reactions it's pretty clear that at best they only knew a month ahead of time for Zen and Threadripper as to the details of any announcements, and probably closer to a week beforehand. It's also pretty clear that the leaks on the current architectures are all coming from manufacturing partners or people much further down the chain at AMD and that AMD is at least trying to be tightlipped about specifics even internally. The reason you didn't see a similar pattern for the initial Zen launch was because of how tight the launch window was. Remember all the initial difficulties in supply that resulted from the tight turnaround time motherboard manufacturers had.

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11 hours ago, JoostinOnline said:

So your proof is that I can't prove it doesn't happen? XD

 

I'm not the one making claims. You're spouting Internet rumors and passing them off as fact. I'm not saying they're definitely false, but claiming they're definitely true is silly.

I have my head in the sand for calling out your appeal to ignorance fallacy?

Given that many people in the industry have said it happens,  there are actual legal cases of it happening.

 

https://www.themarysue.com/intel-information-theft/

https://www.therichest.com/rich-list/10-of-the-most-infamous-cases-of-industrial-espionage/

 

Not to mention I said I witnessed it first hand.  But I am hardly going to throw ex employers under the bus.

 

7 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, it makes your statement false.

 

Or are you accusing Intel of Espionage?

 

How long did it take for the 6 Cores??
That doesn't look like they were prepared or even knew about it.

Especially with the fab problems, wich is in part due to the more cores and thus larger dies and also designed for maximum utilization of the Fabs with the smaller 4 Core Dies.

...or they didn't know more than we did and were only projecting and expecting something that wasn't as good as AMD delivered...

 

And thus they released even larger cores to the Consumer, wich they didn't want to and plan, wich also ruined their fab projections and caused utilization beyond 100%.

Ähm, no.


Intel didn't know until it was too late.

Intel made their fab for their projected sales of small 14nm/4 Core Dies and some server stuff.

 

Now Intel can't ship, even had to respin a Chipset in the older 22nm process to free up space in the 14nm Fab(s), so that processors can be done instead.


WIth what we know, its absolutely certain that they didn't know more than we did or not much more.

 

Same with nVidia as well.

AMD also didn't know that, if they did, they wouldn't have fired the one that made the VEGA 20 on Desktop...

 

And there are NO LEAKS on AMD's side that are noteworthy, wich then in turn means that they closed their leaks...

 

 

The only source of Information for the other company might only be Partners like MSI, ASUS and co, who might (or might not) get the Chips for valuation purposes.

 

So let me get this straight, If I am accusing Intel of espionage you agree but if I am accusing AMD of it then I am making false statements?  Typical.

 

Majority of what you said is just you not liking reality again.

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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Can't wait until AMD can actually start convincing people that they have a compelling performance advantage over Intel. Sure, they do now at the same price point, but once you bring a 135-watt 16-core 5.1 GHz processor to the market on a motherboard that won't have to be upgraded, Intel is screwed.


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I can crash a computer in 1 second by yeeting it.

I also now have about 7 GB of viruses on an autorun flash drive.

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9 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

 It is whether Intel's sources were/are good enough to have the precise details that Moose is claiming.

And what precise details where they that I supposedly claimed?

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And what precise details where they that I supposedly claimed?

 

 

That they knew long before the general public that Zen was a 50+% increase over FX and that the specifics of Threadripper beyond being AMD's HEDT platform were known to them. None of which was apparent in their actions at the time.

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4 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

That they knew long before the general public that Zen was a 50+% increase over FX and that the specifics of Threadripper beyond being AMD's HEDT platform were known to them. None of which was apparent in their actions at the time.

what I said was:

12 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

 

They knew.  They knew a lot more than you or I did and they know lot more than you or I think they know.

Which is a general statement which means regardless what you think you know, Intel know more.  It is not meant not be a specific claim of precisely what information they have and a concise list of accuracies.

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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34 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So let me get this straight, If I am accusing Intel of espionage you agree but if I am accusing AMD of it then I am making false statements? 

No, I don't agree on either side and say its bullshit that you accused either side of Espionage.

 

 

What you miss is that it was far simpler for AMD to guess what Intel might (or might not) do than the other way around.

Their "Tick-Tock" Strategy came back to bite them in the ass. 

 

Simple as that.


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, I don't agree on either side and say its bullshit that you accused either side of Espionage.

 

 

What you miss is that it was far simpler for AMD to guess what Intel might (or might not) do than the other way around.

Their "Tick-Tock" Strategy came back to bite them in the ass. 

 

Simple as that.

Believe whatever you want.  It happens:

 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/lessons-from-the-1-billion-intel-tradesecret-theft


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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34 minutes ago, mr moose said:

what I said was:

Which is a general statement which means regardless what you think you know, Intel know more.  It is not meant not be a specific claim of precisely what information they have and a concise list of accuracies.

 

 

You were responding to a quote that stated they did not know that Zen was a 50% plus increase. You said they knew. That is a specific claim as to the extent of their industrial espionage capabilities.

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1 minute ago, ravenshrike said:

You were responding to a quote that stated they did not know that Zen was a 50% plus increase. You said they knew. That is a specific claim as to the extent of their industrial espionage capabilities.

Well, now we have that cleared up we can get on with the conversation.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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20 minutes ago, mr moose said:

1 Nov 2008 | 4:00 GMT

Why you link to an old article from over 10 years ago? Why not link to newer sources that had the conclusion inside?! 

 

But why not show the whole story and link for example to Wikipedia, where there is more information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biswamohan_Pani

Quote

The information he apparently obtained is believed to be related to Intel's then next-generation Itanium microprocessor.

Öhm, yeah...

The Value for AMD I don't really see here...

What should AMD do with a failed Processor that never gained much relevancy??

At that time, Itanic should have been pretty dead...


Also:

Quote

On 8 August 2012 he was sentenced to three years in federal prison and given a fine of US$17,500.[5]

Ähh...

That doesn't look that bad...

 

But hey, why not link to the Official Statement of the FBI:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/boston/press-releases/2012/former-intel-employee-sentenced-to-prison-for-stealing-valuable-computer-chip-manufacturing-and-design-documents

 

Because they stated these lines:

Quote

AMD also cooperated with the investigation, and there was no evidence that AMD or its employees had asked Pani to take these documents or even knew that he had them.

Yeah, right...

 

So you're saying that an Ex-Employee who didn't disclose that he was working for the Competition while Working for Intel, took some Documents to advance his career, without any evidence that AMD asked him to do it or even knew about it, is proof for what you claim it happens??
Yeah, right...

 

You know what:
It was the action of a not very nice person, who had no ethics and wanted to advance at all cost...


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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44 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

The question is not does industrial espionage happen. It is whether Intel's sources were/are good enough to have the precise details that Moose is claiming.

Obviously not.

AMD has closed off every leak as did everyone.

And also its illegal with pretty draconian penalties from all sides.

 

Especially since its only possible in late stages, before that it might only be a couple of dozen or so people working on it.

44 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

Given their reactions it's pretty clear that at best they only knew a month ahead of time for Zen and Threadripper as to the details of any announcements, and probably closer to a week beforehand.

Exactly, wich is not really espionage like Moose claims.

Especially since at that point a couple of thousand people know about the products, its not that secret anymore. So that is the point where Intel actually might have gotten some Infos -> Product validation phase from Partners.

 

If they did know about it sooner, the reaction Intel has shown, didn't show it. The ~1 Year for 6 Core Kaby-Lake also supports our theory than his because one year for a wider CPU is to be expected.

Especially since Intel didn't change much on the Cores itself. 

 

44 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

It's also pretty clear that the leaks on the current architectures are all coming from manufacturing partners or people much further down the chain at AMD and that AMD is at least trying to be tightlipped about specifics even internally. The reason you didn't see a similar pattern for the initial Zen launch was because of how tight the launch window was. Remember all the initial difficulties in supply that resulted from the tight turnaround time motherboard manufacturers had.

Exactly.

Doesn't look too different with Matisse as well.


Rome is handed around a bit longer, so there Intel might know a bit more or so.

But even here, AMD might have had their personell around the chip and only showed it to a small amount of people who have deciding power and need to know.


"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

1 Nov 2008 | 4:00 GMT

Why you link to an old article from over 10 years ago? Why not link to newer sources that had the conclusion inside?! 

 

But why not show the whole story and link for example to Wikipedia, where there is more information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biswamohan_Pani

Öhm, yeah...

The Value for AMD I don't really see here...

What should AMD do with a failed Processor that never gained much relevancy??

At that time, Itanic should have been pretty dead...


Also:

Ähh...

That doesn't look that bad...

 

But hey, why not link to the Official Statement of the FBI:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/boston/press-releases/2012/former-intel-employee-sentenced-to-prison-for-stealing-valuable-computer-chip-manufacturing-and-design-documents

 

Because they stated these lines:

Yeah, right...

 

So you're saying that an Ex-Employee who didn't disclose that he was working for the Competition while Working for Intel, took some Documents to advance his career, without any evidence that AMD asked him to do it or even knew about it, is proof for what you claim it happens??
Yeah, right...

So your arguing because he was only given 3 years that he didn't actually steal information from Intel?  or that this type of thing doesn't happen?

 

Are you just arguing for the sake of it? I mean it's pretty obvious that corporate espionage happens (I have linked to proof), it is also not up for debate that all tech companies keep a close eye on their competition, sometimes through leaks and secret deals, sometimes through old fashioned sleuthing.   I'm not sure why this is a hard thing to accept?


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Well you're the only person here naive enough to not believe it happens. 

Where did I say that?


Make sure to quote or tag me (@JoostinOnline) or I won't see your response!

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1 hour ago, Schnoz said:

once you bring a 135-watt 16-core 5.1 GHz processor to the market on a motherboard that won't have to be upgraded, Intel is screwed.

Not happening anytime soon. I don't care what anyone tells me.


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