[OLD] PSU Tier List 3.0 (Legacy)

[LukeSavenije]

2 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

I'm not going to ask Stefan because he fear mongers.

 

If single +12V rail was so "dangerous", 99% of the PSUs on the market would burst into flames.

 

I'm talking a possibility, not a standard

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, Ankerson said:

You are using an 8 YO post on a forum about a total crap PSU that burned up a PC as an example?

An Ultra X4 1600W PSU, really?

What a surprise, it burned up a PC..... Not really.

 

Luke,

It's not relevant today

Everything you said here is completely irrelevant.

 

The facts are:

a) he used a strong PSU. what it was doesn't matter

b) the PSU didn't switch off

c) it burned the Motherboard.

 

And now do the math!

A 1500W PSU has 125A on 12V according to spec.

OPP is around 120-140%, worst case: 175A (2100W)

For that to trip, we're talking about 0,068 Ohm or less.

 

So that means that a shitty connection of the modular cable is enough for the PSU to not detect the Short.

 

1 hour ago, seon123 said:

I don't know if you have realised, but the exact same thing would have happened with an AX1600i configured in single rail, or with an EVGA T2 1600W. 

Exactly.

The problem is the high powere that isn't divided into multiple portions.

It might even be possible that the PSU didn't have UVP or OCP on 12V in general.

1 hour ago, Ankerson said:

Maybe, no proof however from a reliable source and not just some post on some forum or some vague YT video.

You call the German hardware Magazine "PC Games Hardware"; wich was one of the biggest ones back in the day, not "reliable Source"? And Simon Zentgraf, who did make the PSU Reviews for PC-Max not reliable??

 

Ähm, RLY?!

 

Again, I'm not shitting on the AX1200, I'm/we are shitting on 1200W Single Rail PSU in general...

Why do you think the AX1200i got Multi Rail??

1 hour ago, Ankerson said:

It is however doubtful.

Its physics and mathematics.

Ohm'sch Law, Current and Resistance. 

0,065 Ohm is really really low. That can be just the connections, if they are a bit worn.

 

1 hour ago, Ankerson said:

Both are PSU that have actually been fully tested by actual real PSU testers, full reviews and tear downs etc.

Both are high quality PSUs.

It would be nice if we could stop the drama queen stuff.

And how do they violate the laws of physics??

How should that happen?

You are insulting us while providing no information on this issue.

 

You probably also have bridged your Breakers in your Breaker box, don't you? Because nothing bad will ever happen. You won't forget that a dish washer is running, while switching on the water cooker and the Oven. That will never happen.

 

And MOSFETs never fail shorted...

 

Then how do you explain the Burned Board in the Thread? Because MOSFETs in some cases fail shorted.

57 minutes ago, seon123 said:

And the fault in the forum post was not with the PSU. It was the motherboard that failed. 

Single rail PSU: Huh, there's a strange load of 1500W on the CPU 8 pin connector. Oh well, not my problem, idc where the power goes, and it's not tripping my OPP. 

Multi rail PSU: OMG there's 1500W going down the CPU 8 pin connector, shut down!

Exactly!

 

Its the same as your house. The Power Company (here where I live) comes with 35-63A, in some cases even 125A or more into your house and delivers that.

 

Because that's a bit too much, its divided into multiple portions with some device we call Fuse. In more modern houses the fuse got replace what we call a cable protection switch. The Englishman calls it Circuit Breaker.

Multi Rail works similarly as the Breaker Box in your house. It splits the max. Current into multiple Portions that is limited by a fraction of the maximal possible current.

52 minutes ago, Ankerson said:

There aren't any CPU's that will pull 1500W.

 

There also aren't any MB that have that much power going over a single 8 pin CPU connection, they all have multiple power connections as in server MB's etc.

 

So the point is irreverent, mute and whatever other words that can be used.

OK, there aren't.

But then why/how did THIS happen:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/31-power-supplies/944707-why-single-rail-not-better-than-multi-rail.html

 

 

Because that's what we call a fault. And the fault is a low resistance connection between 12V and Ground. Because the PSU was so high power and the resistance higher than needed for "SCP" to trip, the PSU did NOT switch off because in the eyes of the PSU, it wasn't a fault. Thus caused the Fire and burned out the 12V Connector from the Motherboard.

 

You can see where the fire originated and what really happened. Because you can see that that's a place where a MOSFET should be. Or rather was. That failed. And because the Board caught fire because it was used with a rediculously powerful, SINGLE RAIL, PSU, the damage isn't repairable because the PCB got damaged.

 

The only Conclusion in this discussion is:
you are wrong!

And there is an advantage of having multiple OCP Channels in higher wattage PSUs!

 

And the laws of physics and of electricity are the same for everyone. Some do make Multi Channel OCP higher power PSU or rather exclusively have that, for example Corsair but also be quiet. Others don't do that. Either because they don't care or don't know better.

 

Either way: 1500W Single Rail PSU are bad.

High Wattage Single Rail PSU are bad in GENERAL. There is no excuse for that.

For lower wattage, ie 550W, it doesn't necessarily matter. BUt somewhere between 550W and 1500W there is a point where it becomes relevant and there is a point where it is an absolute MUST.

[seon123]

8 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

Thing is, so many other protections will come into play even without OCP.

 

Say you have a short on a 1600W PSU.  You have SCP, for one.  You also have UVP because the resistance of the short is going to cause the voltage to drop.  You have OPP.  I mean... in 99% of cases, it's a non-issue.

  

I mean, in 99% of cases, you won't experience a catastrophic failure. I still expect a PSU to have protections. With a 1600W PSU, if I did the maths right, you reach 1600W with a resistance of 0,09Ohm. So a failure that still has 0,09Ohm resistance should in theory not trigger OPP. How is the UVP set on various different PSUs? Ignoring the resistance of the connectors (so far from the most accurate), and going with the premise that 18AWG copper wire has a resistance of 0,0210Ohm/m. With 4 of those per 8 pin CPU connector and 1600W going through it, that would be a drop of 0,7V. Would that be enough to trigger UVP?

[Stefan Payne]

12 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

I'm not going to ask Stefan because he fear mongers.

If single +12V rail was so "dangerous", 99% of the PSUs on the market would burst into flames.

Exagerate maybe, but not fear mongering.

 

The thing is that our argument is the same as with Seatbelts and Cars.

You do not need the Seatbelt in your car for "Normal operation." you need the Seatbelt in your car if have a sudden deacelleration. For example you hit a Tree or a Wall. That's when Airbag and Seatbelts are important.

 

Under normal circumstances it is irrelevant.

And that's also what we are saying. Under normal Operations it doesn't matter. But if you mess something up. For example cut your cable a bit on a (shitty) Case and that cable grounds, you want to not have a fire starting because there isn't anything to detect that.

 

9 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

Thing is, so many other protections will come into play even without OCP.

 

Say you have a short on a 1600W PSU.  You have SCP, for one.  You also have UVP because the resistance of the short is going to cause the voltage to drop.  You have OPP.  I mean... in 99% of cases, it's a non-issue.

And how does SCP Work? Isn't that usually just an extreme Current detection (or voltage drop) situation?

 

So with 1600W, you need your short to be more powerful than 1600W.

 

If your system runs in idle and you have a short of just 0,09 Ohm you're done and the fire happens.

Because 0,09 Ohm short equals 1600W at 12V. And 1600W PSU usually go a bit over 1600W...

 

 

But then again, did you ever need an Airbag in your life? Did you ever need a Seatbelt in your life?

Most here probably didn't (yet) but they are mandatory and you have to use them. Because if some sudden deacceleration happens, you are thankful for it,.

 

Multi Rail is similar to Seatbelts. You don't need it while driving. You need it when something goes horribly wrong.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

 

And how does SCP Work? Isn't that usually just an extreme Current detection (or voltage drop) situation?

 

Test it yourself.

 

Typcailly with an impedance measurement of < 0.1 Ohm.

 

The knucklehead German that did the "test" that set the wire on fire with an AX1200 (I think that's what it was) was using such a thin gauge wire that of course the wire burned.  I tried the same experiment here and everytime I shorted the +12V to ground, even with a 10 foot wire, the SCP tripped.

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, seon123 said:

How is the UVP set on various different PSUs?

Mostly useless. Total garbage.

SITI PS223 has 9V +/- 0,5V

 

[divinney]

Feelsbadman, bought FSP Hydro GE few months ago and just found this thread. I thought it same as Hydro G (or under it a little) 
Is it harmful for my PC having tier C? Bcs I dont want ruin my PC. It said above that recommended not using anything under tier B for gaming.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Mostly useless. Total garbage.

SITI PS223 has 9V +/- 0,5V

 

That's not how it works.

 

You can modify the circuit so the voltage drop is amplified before it's reported to the IC.

 

I don't think anyone uses the default UVP or OVP from the supervisor IC without modifying the circuit to increase the tolerances.

[LukeSavenije]

1 hour ago, divinney said:

Feelsbadman, bought FSP Hydro GE few months ago and just found this thread. I thought it same as Hydro G (or under it a little) 
Is it harmful for my PC having tier C? Bcs I dont want ruin my PC. It said above that recommended not using anything under tier B for gaming.

depends... what are you running?

[LienusLateTips]

2 hours ago, divinney said:

Feelsbadman, bought FSP Hydro GE few months ago and just found this thread. I thought it same as Hydro G (or under it a little) 
Is it harmful for my PC having tier C? Bcs I dont want ruin my PC. It said above that recommended not using anything under tier B for gaming.

What are you running on the PSU? If it's a low end system, it's likely fine.

[divinney]

14 hours ago, LukeSavenije said:

depends... what are you running?

 

13 hours ago, LienusLateTips said:

What are you running on the PSU? If it's a low end system, it's likely fine.

i5-8400 with 8 gigs of RAM and Sapphire Nitro+ RX 580 4GB. I suppose its mid-low (mainstream) system.

[Stefan Payne]

Not the best but should work fine for that system.

 

[Ankerson]

4 hours ago, divinney said:

 

i5-8400 with 8 gigs of RAM and Sapphire Nitro+ RX 580 4GB. I suppose its mid-low (mainstream) system.

 

Well, if you experience any issues replace the PSU with a better quality unit.

 

 

[divinney]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Not the best but should work fine for that system.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Ankerson said:

 

Well, if you experience any issues replace the PSU with a better quality unit.

 

 

Thanks, maybe I should replace with another good product. Hopefully no issues running this for 1-2 year. Seems Bitfenix Whisper offering good deals here with that high tier and low price.

[bintang]

35 minutes ago, divinney said:

 

Thanks, maybe I should replace with another good product. Hopefully no issues running this for 1-2 year. Seems Bitfenix Whisper offering good deals here with that high tier and low price.

just use it for now, its not like going to catch fire or something, sometimes people are exaggerated about psu. if you look at local internet cafe, business man,standart office, school they use extremely crap psu and its failure rates are like 1 out of 300. as long as there is no problem you shouldn't worry

 

 

cmiiw

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, divinney said:

Thanks, maybe I should replace with another good product. Hopefully no issues running this for 1-2 year. Seems Bitfenix Whisper offering good deals here with that high tier and low price.

Why?

I mean its an FSP, it will work fine. Especially with such a lower end System.

Replacing it only makes sense if you can send it back and exchange it for a different PSU. If not, use it for now.

 

I trust them more than some other manufacturers that some think are the best of the best when they are a rather small fish...

[Ankerson]

1 hour ago, divinney said:

 

Thanks, maybe I should replace with another good product. Hopefully no issues running this for 1-2 year. Seems Bitfenix Whisper offering good deals here with that high tier and low price.

 

I would use it until there are problems or you need more power for an upgrade.

[MEC-777]

New V series PSUs from Cooler Master. Hope they hold up to the reputation of their last gen V series. 

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/255851/cooler-master-launches-the-new-v-gold-series-power-supply-units

[_Hustler_One_]

What is the differences between the variant of Corsair SF600 Gold vs Platinum?

[LukeSavenije]

4 hours ago, MEC-777 said:

New V series PSUs from Cooler Master. Hope they hold up to the reputation of their last gen V series. 

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/255851/cooler-master-launches-the-new-v-gold-series-power-supply-units

just a enhance refresh or something actually different?

[OrionFOTL]

9 hours ago, MEC-777 said:

New V series PSUs from Cooler Master. Hope they hold up to the reputation of their last gen V series. 

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/255851/cooler-master-launches-the-new-v-gold-series-power-supply-units

 

4 hours ago, LukeSavenije said:

just a enhance refresh or something actually different?

The 650 and 750W units are made by Hipro.

The 850, 1000, and 1200W units are made by Delta, on the same platform as Antec High Current Pro Platinum but with some unknown changes.

[Stefan Payne]

10 hours ago, MEC-777 said:

New V series PSUs from Cooler Master. Hope they hold up to the reputation of their last gen V series. 

I have heard something from someone that leads me to believe that the Master Watt V-Series is not a good replacement for the old V-Series. 

And if you look at the connectors, at least for the 550W Version, well, that's a bit too scottish...

 

Silverstone Strider Gold (STxxF-GS V3.0) is IMO a better choice, even if the fan Bearing isn't specified.

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

What is the differences between the variant of Corsair SF600 Gold vs Platinum?

Better fan Controller based on their proprietary MCU thingy on the Platinum vs. some normal one with a shitty hysteresis on the Gold one...

[_Hustler_One_]

14 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Better fan Controller based on their proprietary MCU thingy on the Platinum vs. some normal one with a shitty hysteresis on the Gold one...

Is the sf600 gold fan just like the enermax sfx fan you told me earlier?

 

Does the extra price on the platinum worth over the gold?

I only see their differences are the atx bracket and sleeved cables, but idk how the component and performance of each.

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

Is the sf600 gold fan just like the enermax sfx fan you told me earlier?

No, not as bad, as far as I know but there are people mentioning that the fan starts/stops constantly under certain circumstances.

Its not as bad.

This issue is fixed with the Platinum model though.

 

I'm not aware of a change on the Gold one...

3 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

Does the extra price on the platinum worth over the gold?

I only see their differences are the atx bracket and sleeved cables, but idk how the component and performance of each.

Yes, I'd pay for the Platinum personally.

Not because of the Efficiency but the fixed fan controller.