[OLD] PSU Tier List 3.0 (Legacy)

[MadmanRB]

1 minute ago, OrionFOTL said:

Hmm. What useful things can a user tell you about a PSU's quality that a reviewer may forget?

Well lifespan and longevity for one, remember pro reviewers only have a short time to look at a product before having to move on.

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Seriously are all user reviews just unboxings to you?

Mostly, yes.

I have an RPM Meter, so my "Reviews" are Unboxing, showing the Electronics and giving fan RPM measures and subjectively rate the fan and fan speed.

Because I know that's all that I can do. There is nothing else.

 

For more I need an electronic load (maybe I should make a Patreon or so to finance that, they are not that expensive, they "only" cost about 1000 or 2000€ + 500€ for a decent Scope (Rigol 1054Z)).

 

Without that I do not know how good the electronics of the unit really are...

 

And the only other thing I can look at is the Cables, Connectors and what else is in the box. Nothing more.

[MadmanRB]

3 minutes ago, Ankerson said:

 

Nope, not wrong at all.

 

If they don't have the equipment and knowledge to properly test and evaluate the PSU then it's a useless unboxing and irrelevant.

Well what if they do?

And even if they dont have those kinds of tools it doesnt disqualify personal testimony.

I pay attention to user reviews that have had several revisions where they talk more than just how good the product looks.

Sometimes they make several editions of the same review you know.

I have seen user reviews that have taken the time from the point of purchase to the end of life of said product where they had to either RMA it or replace it.

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well lifespan and longevity for one,

...is based on luck...

So only the Manufacturer knows the average Lifetime - because they specified it - and the Failure rate.

A big dealer might have a rough idea but most units might not even reach their RMA Department as many companys want you to send the stuff to them.

 

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

remember pro reviewers only have a short time to look at a product before having to move on.

Yes, but some have an IR Camera -> https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/corsair_sf750_platinum/s09.php

And a couple of thousand Euro Test Station, that can do anything they want.

[Ankerson]

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well what if they do?

And even if they dont have those kinds of tools it doesnt disqualify personal testimony.

I pay attention to user reviews that have had several revisions where they talk more than just how good the product looks.

Sometimes they make several editions of the same review you know.

 

Still irreverent.

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well what if they do?

A normal Enduser doesn't have a couple of hundred bucks to build their own (resistive based) Load Tester, the Knowledge or experience to do that.

 

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

And even if they dont have those kinds of tools it doesnt disqualify personal testimony.

Yes it does.

As the only thing they can rate is the Noise of the PSU/Fan.

And if that fan is annoying or not.

That's it.

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

I pay attention to user reviews that have had several revisions where they talk more than just how good the product looks.

Sometimes they make several editions of the same review you know.

You are mistaken because even real crap units can be rated well by users, although they are crap.

Users don't test Safety Features/Protection.

Users don't know how to test the Voltage Quality and Regulation.

[MadmanRB]

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

...is based on luck...

Yeah but you can say that about anything really.

Everything is based on luck even the so called "pro reviews" are not guaranteed.

[Ankerson]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

A normal Enduser doesn't have a couple of hundred bucks to build their own (resistive based) Load Tester, the Knowledge or experience to do that.

 

Yes it does.

As the only thing they can rate is the Noise of the PSU/Fan.

And if that fan is annoying or not.

That's it.

You are mistaken because even real crap units can be rated well by users, although they are crap.

Users don't test Safety Features/Protection.

Users don't know how to test the Voltage Quality and Regulation.

 

I have seen excellent user reviews of dumpster fire quality PSU's. LOL

 

And poor user reviews due to buyer remorse of excellent high quality units. (They couldn't afford the thing in the 1st place)

[OrionFOTL]

12 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well lifespan and longevity for one, remember pro reviewers only have a short time to look at a product before having to move on.

A user reviewing a PSU and saying it worked for one or two years doesn't tell you anything about its longevity or lifespan. For one thing, it's a sample size of one.

 

And even if one hundred users wrote reviews and said their units are 1-2 years old and still working, then one, even the worst garbage units can live that long without showing any problems, and two, the users actually have no idea if their units are working properly. If they don't have the right equipment, they can't know if their units aren't sending high ripple or wrong voltage to their components, slowly killing them.

 

This is for reviews where people have had their PSUs for 1-2 years. If what you mean in your post is people who review PSUs after 5+ years of owning them, then:

• how many of such reviews do you see to make it statistically relevant and representative of the unit's average lifespan? If you manage to find 2, or even 3 people who reviewed their 5 year old PSU and say it still works, then it is still an insignificant sample size to make any conclusions. Look how many people use garbage PSUs everyday for a similar span of time and their units still work. Or ask some old, irresponsible drivers how many years they've been driving without a seatbelt! I'm sure you'll find lots, lots of them with the mindset of "I've been driving without a seatbelt for 20 years and never had an accident, so what's the problem?"
• surely you're not looking to buy a PSU made in 2013?

 

Meanwhile, professional reviewers will open a PSU and tell you things such as:

• this unit has a sleeve bearing fan, which wears off the fastest out of all variants;
• the +5VSB capacitor of this unit is placed in a hot spot, so it will probably wear off fast and increase ripple in standby;
• the MOV has low tolerance specified in its datasheet, so it will wear off faster compared to other units;
• this and that MOSFET or diode is rather hot under load or has low power throughput, which will wear it out faster;

And all kinds of other predictions based on their knowledge.

[MadmanRB]

So... in your opinion if i made a review of my power supply right now I am unqualified to do?

 

What so are all users unqualfied to review things and only the opinions of so called "pros" are valid in your eyes?

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, Ankerson said:

I have seen excellent user reviews of dumpster fire quality PSU's. LOL

Yes, exactly that was what I meant.

Most "User Reviews" are total bogus. Either they rate the Store "Was awesome, I ordered tuesday and it arrived on Wednesday, 5 Stars!111"

Or they mess up some shit with a VEGA64 (or other high Power Card) on one PCIe Cable (connected via 8pins to the PSU), thus burning the PSU Connector "sucks, shit quality, 1 Star".

Or in some cases they even rate a different PSU for another PSU they fucked up...

 

User reviews are great - for devices that user can actually review. Like Graphics Cards, CPU Heatsinks. Or Oppionion based Reviews (Music, Films and Games)

But they make no sense for devices that they can't really "benchmark", that aren't oppionion based and "only" do power...

[Ankerson]

1 minute ago, MadmanRB said:

So... in your opinion if i made a review of my power supply right now I am unqualified to do?

 

What so are all users unqualfied to review things and only the opinions of so called "pros" are valid in your eyes?

 

Exactly.

[Ankerson]

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, exactly that was what I meant.

Most "User Reviews" are total bogus. Either they rate the Store "Was awesome, I ordered tuesday and it arrived on Wednesday, 5 Stars!111"

Or they mess up some shit with a VEGA64 on one PCIe Cable (connected via 8pins to the PSU), thus burning the PSU Connector "sucks, shit quality, 1 Star".

Or in some cases they even rate a different PSU for another PSU they fucked up...

 

User reviews are great - for devices that user can actually review. Like Graphics Cards, CPU Heatsinks. Or Oppionion based Reviews (Music, Films and Games)

But they make no sense for devices that they can't really "benchmark", that aren't oppionion based and "only" do power...

 

Yeah, PSU's are different, one really needs the equipment and knowledge to properly test and evaluate them correctly.

[MadmanRB]

Just now, Ankerson said:

 

Exactly.

Well then I cry bullshit.

Just because i am a end user doesnt mean I am not informed.

I may not have the equipment that the pros use but I do think my voice matters if something goes right or wrong with my unit.

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

So... in your opinion if i made a review of my power supply right now I am unqualified to do?

Even I am not that qualified and know that I only write Marketing stuff for PSU but the things I can rate I will. And I will be harsh if something is really messed up - like a fan starting/stopping every other second. Especially since it has a Sleeve Number and no other "Imprint" (ie FDB written over the label but even then. For a 2BB I'd not be as harsh).

 

So yeah, without an electronic load, Reviews in General of PSU are rather useless and can only tell you the noise of the PSU.

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

What so are all users unqualfied to review things and only the opinions of so called "pros" are valid in your eyes?

Their access to Chroma ATE and other Load Testers and Osciloscopes.

[Ankerson]

Just now, MadmanRB said:

Well then I cry bullshit.

Just because i am a end user doesnt mean I am not informed.

I may not have the equipment that the pros use but I do think my voice matters if something goes right or wrong with my unit.

 

In reality no it doesn't mean anything, not really.

[OrionFOTL]

6 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

So... in your opinion if i made a review of my power supply right now I am unqualified to do?

 

What so are all users unqualfied to review things and only the opinions of so called "pros" are valid in your eyes?

Let's ask the other way, then. What is the most important thing in graphics cards for a casual gamer? FPS in games, right?

Then what merit would there be in a GPU review which doesn't test FPS in games? A review which simply says "Battlefield V turns on" without numbers isn't useful, right?

 

So then, if power quality is the most important in a PSU, then a review which doesn't test power quality has no merit either, right? A review which simply says "PC turns on" without voltage (etc.) measurements is as useful as the GPU example above.

 

Remember, there are people in the world who are using a $20 Diablotek with their i5 PCs and it works fine for them. Some of them have been using shitty quality PSUs for 5+ years and it works for them. How much worth is their opinion?

 

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well then I cry bullshit.

Just because i am a end user doesnt mean I am not informed.

I may not have the equipment that the pros use but I do think my voice matters if something goes right or wrong with my unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

An EVGA G2 1000W user will say their unit burned after 1 year. Some other person will say their $30 Raidmax unit has been working fine for 5 years. Should we make any conclusions from this?

[Ankerson]

9 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Even I am not that qualified and know that I only write Marketing stuff for PSU but the things I can rate I will. And I will be harsh if something is really messed up - like a fan starting/stopping every other second. Especially since it has a Sleeve Number and no other "Imprint" (ie FDB written over the label but even then. For a 2BB I'd not be as harsh).

 

So yeah, without an electronic load, Reviews in General of PSU are rather useless and can only tell you the noise of the PSU.

Their access to Chroma ATE and other Load Testers and Osciloscopes.

 

And the reason why I don't review PSU's at all, and I am a hardware guy from way back.

 

I don't have the equipment to do it and I am not going to spend the money to get it either. I don't have the interest in doing it as there are people that do it correctly already.

 

It's like if you can't swim then stay out of the pool.

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, MadmanRB said:

Just because i am a end user doesnt mean I am not informed.

Then tell me how to rate nuts and bolts...

 

Its not that you are not informed its that YOU can not "benchmark" a PSU!
Its an inherant Problem of PSU and the lack of ways to test it with "cheap Hardware"...

 

Just now, MadmanRB said:

I may not have the equipment that the pros use but I do think my voice matters if something goes right or wrong with my unit.

Then tell me how do you differentiate a 5€ PSU from a 500€ PSU without the necessary Equipment?

You can't tell any difference in Noise.

They both work.

 

How do you know wich one of them "works better", doesn't fry your components in a Month or two?

 

Your PC Components are very tolerant and low end stuff/motherboards even work with 1V Ripple with not many Problems...

And even with 11V it might work well.

[MadmanRB]

8 minutes ago, OrionFOTL said:

Let's ask the other way, then. What is the most important thing in graphics cards for a casual gamer? FPS in games, right?

Then what merit would there be in a GPU review which doesn't test FPS in games? A review which simply says "Battlefield V turns on" without numbers isn't useful, right?

 

So then, if power quality is the most important in a PSU, then a review which doesn't test power quality has no merit either, right? A review which simply says "PC turns on" without voltage (etc.) measurements is as useful as the GPU example above.

 

Remember, there are people in the world who are using a $20 Diablotek with their i5 PCs and it works fine for them. Some of them have been using shitty quality PSUs for 5+ years and it works for them. How much worth is their opinion?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

its still in my right to tell people not to buy something though, or warn them of issues I had.

Or to tell someone how good and great something is too and why they may want to buy it.

It has to matter somewhere.

 

And no i would never recommend junk, I may not be a pro but there are things I know about

[OrionFOTL]

1 minute ago, MadmanRB said:

its till in my right to tell people not to buy something though, or warn them of issues I had.

It has to matter somewhere

If you buy an expensive PSU, and unfortunately your unit blows up after a month, should you be telling people not to buy that model? Or maybe your experience as a single person's, no matter how well-meant, is not enough to determine whether the product is or isn't prone to early faults?

[Ankerson]

1 minute ago, OrionFOTL said:

If you buy an expensive PSU, and unfortunately your unit blows up after a month, should you be telling people not to buy that model? Or maybe your experience as a single person's, no matter how well-meant, is not enough to determine whether the product is or isn't prone to early faults?

 

Yeah even the top units can blow or be DOA.

[MadmanRB]

4 minutes ago, OrionFOTL said:

If you buy an expensive PSU, and unfortunately your unit blows up after a month, should you be telling people not to buy that model? Or maybe your experience as a single person's, no matter how well-meant, is not enough to determine whether the product is or isn't prone to early faults?

Well yes if it murdered my system I would be in my right to give warning.

And this is the area where I do consider user reviews, again there is only so much "pros" can do.

[Ankerson]

4 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well yes if it murdered my system I would be in my right to give warning.

 

It does happen, not often, but it does happen.

 

Even the top units can be a dud every once in awhile.

 

However MOST of the time it would be the end users fault that something happened from what I have seen over the years. They did something stupid to cause the issue.

[seon123]

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Well yes if it murdered my system I would be in my right to give warning.

Okay. A sample size of one is all that's needed. Alright. 

A certain Jon Gerow posted a thing that happened with an RMx. 

The 12V rail somehow got connected to 5Vsb. The OVP of course shut down the sb rail, but only after 80ms. The sb rail then turned on, before turning off 80ms later. This killed anything connected to USB. 

A high end PSU with all the necessary protections did that. Once. Out of many many units. 

 

Failures happen, but that doesn't mean you should avoid the RMx.