An open letter to Linus: We at /r/linux_gaming are happy to help

[bloodthirster]

Ok, I'm going to say one thing and leave this charlie foxtrot thread alone. 

 

Linux is different.  It's designed differently, made differently, and functions differently.    Linux isn't good at being Windows like (but is great at being Unix like), it was never designed for that.   Likewise, a lot of the Windows users here need to realize they have a huge bias towards Windows because that's all they've basically used.   If you put Windows in front of someone who grew up on Unix/Linux, it's far far far uglier than the other way around (trust me, I've seen it).

 

Linux can make a fine desktop (or server or embedded systems or...).  There are pros and cons of each OS.  Like with Windows, hunting down drivers on websites and with Linux, some drivers not being in the kernel.   The main thing is that Linux is not Windows and if you treat it as such you won't like it.   It's a fundamentally different OS.  If you went into Linux and Windows blind having never used a computer, chances are things wouldn't be THAT different.   People are used to Windows so they judge an OS on something that's completely different then get upset when things are different. 

 

Is Linux perfect? No.   Is Windows perfect? No.   If you're happy with Windows, stick with that.  No one is asking you or forcing you to use Linux.  Unless you're getting paid then it's time to put on the big boy pants.   You can't expect two different things to behave the same.  If you go into Linux understanding that you'll put effort into it like you did with Windows over the course of years of using it, it's a perfectly reasonable experience.   Linux is neither harder or easier to use than Windows nowadays IME, just different.

 

FYI, I've used Linux for 15 years and Windows since DOS.   Both are fine OSs to use today, but they're different.  A lot of these arguments in this thread boil down to nitpicks,   inherent bias, or failing to realize different things behave differently and neither are better or worse.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

The GUI literally falls apart under normal usage.  Let me get to work and Ill boot up the Gnome 3 based default desktop and Ill just list off where it breaks over the course of a single day.

If you say so... that hasn't happened to me more than once or twice in years and not more often than it has on Windows for that matter. Then again I don't use Gnome - maybe you should try something better considering there are hundreds of Linux distributions with a huge variety of environments to pick from.

3 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

KDE and Gnome have very poor performance.  They are slower than W10 on the same (well supported mind you) hardware.

That's the opposite of my experience, at least with KDE. Maybe you're still thinking of KDE 4 which nobody has used for over 6 years. Gnome 3, sure, it's pretty bad.

3 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

XFCE is on par LXDE as far as being fast and lightweight, but it has a similar lack of configuration tools.

XFCE has plenty of configuration tools, more so than Gnome in many cases.

[KarathKasun]

18 minutes ago, Sauron said:

If you say so... that hasn't happened to me more than once or twice in years and not more often than it has on Windows for that matter. Then again I don't use Gnome - maybe you should try something better considering there are hundreds of Linux distributions with a huge variety of environments to pick from.

That's the opposite of my experience, at least with KDE. Maybe you're still thinking of KDE 4 which nobody has used for over 6 years. Gnome 3, sure, it's pretty bad.

XFCE has plenty of configuration tools, more so than Gnome in many cases.

 

Im not talking about DE options, I am talking about system configuration.  Hardware, Networking, Display, Audio.  The Gnome based UI's do well enough for networking and display, but have lots of cases where I have to fall back to the CLI for advanced audio settings.  And even with their good display config pages, I still get errors on login with my laptop if I remove a display while it is sleeping.

 

LXDE and XFCE are hit or miss depending on what you are doing, with much CLI twiddling needed.

 

KDE is slow, just like Gnome, and has components that feel like they belong in Debian 5.

 

I mean, things like re-assigning sleep/power/lid trigger functions are not simple in any of them.  Defining logon behavior is not either.  All of these things are maybe three clicks in Windows.

[wasab]

I'm a Linux gamer as well. If anyone plays CoH2 on Linux or Mac, pm me. 

[wasab]

5 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

The GUI literally falls apart under normal usage.  Let me get to work and Ill boot up the Gnome 3 based default desktop and Ill just list off where it breaks over the course of a single day.

 

KDE and Gnome have very poor performance.  They are slower than W10 on the same (well supported mind you) hardware.  XFCE is on par LXDE as far as being fast and lightweight, but it has a similar lack of configuration tools.

Just don't use gnome or kde. It's that simple.they pack in features and eye candy thus stress both your cpu and gpu a bit more. If you want quick and snappy but still packs in features, I recommend cinnamon. 

 

I personally use KDE and gnome. They are like the flagship DE of the Linux world and my hardware's are powerful enough to take advantage of their beautiful interfaces and rich features. Xfce and lxde is for old hardwares like old man on their last legs while kde and gnome are like strong young men carrying a bolders while effortlessly jogging past them. 

[wasab]

1 hour ago, KarathKasun said:

 

I mean, things like re-assigning sleep/power/lid trigger functions are not simple in any of them.  Defining logon behavior is not either.  All of these things are maybe three clicks in Windows.

I'm going to use apple fan boy rhetorics here.

 

No average consumer does these things anyway. Who would want to reassign triggers on their laptop? I don't know what black, unholy, hackery magic you did to make that work on Windows but I ain't doing it to my poor computers. 

[KarathKasun]

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

Just don't use gnome or kde. It's that simple.they pack in features and eye candy thus stress both your cpu and gpu a bit more. If you want quick and snappy but still packs in features, I recommend cinnamon. 

 

I personally use KDE and gnome. They are like the flagship DE of the Linux world and my hardware's are powerful enough to take advantage of their beautiful interfaces and rich features. Xfce and lxde is for old hardwares like old man on their last legs while kde and gnome are like strong young men carrying a bolders while effortlessly jogging past them. 

If you don't use either of those you do not get tools to configure the system.  Also, They bring a 2015 ultrabook (i3-4030U) to its knees in some instances, like taking a few seconds to populate the apps screen.  W10 looks better AND performs better.

 

KDE/Gnome perform like fat middle aged smokers carrying boulders.

[KarathKasun]

4 minutes ago, wasab said:

I'm going to use apple fan boy rhetorics here.

 

No average consumer does these things anyway. Who would want to reassign triggers on their laptop? I don't know what black, unholy, hackery magic you did to make that work on Windows but I ain't doing it to my poor computers. 

On laptops they do.  If you want the lid switch to just blank the screen at night while the system is still doing work or playing music for instance.

 

There is no hacking.  You go into the advanced power dialogue and it has the options right there.

 

You can set the lid to blank the display, sleep, hibernate, or shutdown.  You can set the power and sleep buttons to the same options.

[wasab]

7 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

If you don't use either of those you do not get tools to configure the system.  Also, They bring a 2015 ultrabook (i3-4030U) to its knees in some instances, like taking a few seconds to populate the apps screen.  W10 looks better AND performs better.

 

KDE/Gnome perform like fat middle aged smokers carrying boulders.

And yet chrome os is based off Gentoo Linux and runs on the most lowly Intel celerons and atoms. What weak sauce computer do you run Linux off of to perform this bad?

[KarathKasun]

Just now, wasab said:

And yet chrome is based off Gentoo Linux and runs on the most lowly Intel celerons and atoms. What weak sauce computer do you run Linux off of to perform this bad?

Chrome OS is not running a fat, slow, crap DE like Gnome/KDE.

[wasab]

4 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

On laptops they do.  If you want the lid switch to just blank the screen at night while the system is still doing work or playing music for instance.

 

There is no hacking.  You go into the advanced power dialogue and it has the options right there.

I'm on ubuntu, I can do this too. I just need to set my laptop to never sleep while on ac power. It's like literally right here. 

[wasab]

1 minute ago, KarathKasun said:

Chrome OS is not running a fat, slow, crap DE like Gnome/KDE.

It is running a fat and ram+resources hogging chrome. That counts for something. 

[KarathKasun]

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

I'm on ubuntu, I can do this too. I just need to set my laptop to never sleep while on ac power. It's like literally right here. 

Where is the option to not sleep when the screen is closed there?  Oh wait, it isn't.  Already went down that road, that option does not work for that case.

[wasab]

1 minute ago, KarathKasun said:

Where is the option to not sleep when the screen is closed there?  Oh wait, it isn't.  Already went down that road, that option does not work for that case.

On where is the option for my laptop to not sleep when the lid is close in Windows? 

[KarathKasun]

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

On where is the option for my laptop to not sleep when the lid is close in Windows? 

Power settings -> change plan settings -> Change advanced plan settings.

 

Literally 4 clicks.

[wasab]

4 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

Power settings -> change plan settings -> Change advanced plan settings.

And I can sudo nano /etc/systemd/logins.conf and edit HandleLidSwitch=ignore then reboot. 

 

Why you find this to be difficult? This is like instead of pressing buttons on windows, you open a .txt files in appdata or win32 folders and add that line in. It ain't rocket science. 

[KarathKasun]

Just now, wasab said:

And I can sudo nano /etc/systems/logins.conf and edit HandleLidSwitch=ignore then reboot. 

 

Why you find this to be difficult. This is like instead of pressing buttons one windows, you open a .txt files and add that line in. It ain't rocket science. 

THAT is my point.  This is why Linux is a shit OS to daily drive.  Your solution is worse in every way, including a reboot or forcing you to kill the login manager.

[wasab]

5 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

THAT is my point.  This is why Linux is a shit OS to daily drive.  Your solution is worse in every way, including a reboot or forcing you to kill the login manager.

wtf? why is rebooting an issue? windows literally force you reboot on every updates and when installing a driver

[wasab]

8 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

Your solution is worse in every way

dude, it is literally open a file, type some shit. it aint no harder than pressing buttons. 

[KarathKasun]

22 minutes ago, wasab said:

wtf? why is rebooting an issue? windows literally force you reboot on every updates and when installing a driver

No, Windows does not do this anymore.

I can uninstall my GPU, removing the driver, and reinstall it without a reboot.  This has been a thing since Vista.

 

Linux requires a reboot for kernel and core OS updates as well, so that argument falls flat on its face.

 

19 minutes ago, wasab said:

dude, it is literally open a file, type some shit. it aint no harder than pressing buttons.

Having to reboot for a simple setting is outrageous at this point.  Rebooting to change how an input is handled is like having to reboot when I change my desktop background.

 

Not to mention the config file is in a different place depending on your distro.  And if you use a different logon manager the option may not even exist.

[wasab]

18 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

No, Windows does not do this anymore.

I can uninstall my GPU, removing the driver, and reinstall it without a reboot.  This has been a thing since Vista.

 

Linux requires a reboot for kernel and core OS updates as well, so that argument falls flat on its face.

 

Having to reboot for a simple setting is outrageous at this point.  Rebooting to change how an input is handled is like having to reboot when I change my desktop background.

 

Not to mention the config file is in a different place depending on your distro.  And if you use a different logon manager the option may not even exist.

if the distros uses systemd, then that config file is gonna be at the same places

 

No linux doesnt need to reboot after an update. I can install a kernel, go on my merry ways and then reboot when i feel like it. Windows need to install updates during the shut down, during the bootup. yikes!

 

You know whats more outrageous? forced reboot due to windows updates at the most inconvenient times possible. 

 

 

 

 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

23 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

Having to reboot for a simple setting is outrageous at this point.

on windows you have to reboot to change the computer name. 

 

49 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

Your solution is worse in every way

perhaps. it could easily be fixed by adding it as an option in settings though. 

 

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

Gnome 3, sure, it's pretty bad.

why do people always say this? if you have a reasonably modern machine (sandy bridge quad core) and 8gb of ram it performs fine. 16gb of ram is nice, but that argument can be made about KDE too... 

[BlueGoliath]

14 minutes ago, wasab said:

if the distros uses systemd, then that config file is gonna be at the same places

 

No linux doesnt need to reboot after an update. I can install a kernel, go on my merry ways and then reboot when i feel like it. Windows need to install updates during the shut down, during the bootup. yikes!

 

You know whats more outrageous? forced reboot due to windows updates at the most inconvenient times possible. 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, live system updating and hot driver loading is VERY bad and often will result silent system issues. Yes, that includes Window's hot GPU driver loading.

 

There is a reason Windows restarts to apply updates. The "forced" bit not so much.

[wasab]

4 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

 

For the record, live system updating and hot driver loading is VERY bad and often will result silent system issues. Yes, that includes Window's hot GPU driver loading.

 

There is a reason Windows restarts to apply updates. The "forced" bit not so much.

Not on linux. There is no issues installing updates while using the system. Your OS wont use these new components until you reboot. Windows need to install and update during boot up and shutdown. Even if windows(it was back in 2015 when i last used it i think) doesnt prompt me for a reboot after a driver update, i still reboot regardless. There is a danger of things not working properly if not. 

[WkdPaul]

* thread locked *

 

The amount of useless bickering really is saddening.

 

It's disappointing to see this happening in a thread where some we're legitimately trying to reach out.