Let's play devil's advocate: How do you defend anti-vaxxer?

[Dash Lambda]

2 hours ago, floofer said:

It’s not taking away, it’s simply not having parental consent, in the otherwise standard practice of school vaccinations.

Which is playing "passive-aggressive games behind their backs." If you believe the parents are being negligent and you must do something about it, what you do is remove their authority by taking their children away, not tip-toe around their authority by convincing a child who cannot legally give consent to agree to a medical procedure. "If you're gonna eat shit, don't just nibble."

 

Better alternatives would be to make sending your kid to school an admission of consent or require that a child is vaccinated before they can attend school (the latter of which is already the case in all 50 states, but it's riddled with exemptions). And you have to make sure the parent is aware of these policies.

[Okjoek]

[Tog Driver]

So, continuing with devils advocate: seems like almost every one here is acting like you will die if you don't get vaccinated.

 

"legal way to get rid of a kid"

 

but if this was the case then how did anyone survive before vaccines?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Dash Lambda said:

Which is playing "passive-aggressive games behind their backs." If you believe the parents are being negligent and you must do something about it, what you do is remove their authority by taking their children away, not tip-toe around their authority by convincing a child who cannot legally give consent to agree to a medical procedure. "If you're gonna eat shit, don't just nibble."

Parents who don’t vaccinate their children are negligent. Tetanus, Measles etc can be quite fatal without the appropriate treatments, and more importantly preventable. Children shouldn’t suffer because their parents don’t have enough education.

4 hours ago, Dash Lambda said:

Better alternatives would be to make sending your kid to school an admission of consent or require that a child is vaccinated before they can attend school (the latter of which is already the case in all 50 states, but it's riddled with exemptions). And you have to make sure the parent is aware of these policies.

That would make it harder on the financial situation of the parents. Schools already have vaccination programs.

[Dash Lambda]

1 hour ago, floofer said:

Parents who don’t vaccinate their children are negligent. Tetanus, Measles, etc can be quite fatal without the appropriate treatments, and are more importantly preventable. Children shouldn’t suffer because their parents don’t have enough education.

I agree. But humanity sucks, so no matter how wrong you believe someone is you have to accommodate them if you want to solve their problem. What I'm arguing is that manipulative and forceful solutions are unethical and unstable, and therefore aren't worth employing.

 

The only way to vaccinate a child at school without their parents' consent is to not tell their parents, because if the parent knows then they'll either accept it and take the kid to school or oppose it and keep the kid home. Performing medical procedures on children without telling their parents will get you a few kids vaccinated before the parents find out, then a few hundred (justifiable) lawsuits after they find out and start keeping their kids home. That is not a long-term solution.

 

1 hour ago, floofer said:

That would make it harder on the financial situation of the parents. Schools already have vaccination programs.

Getting the parents' consent costs them only the time it takes to say yes. As for requiring them to do it themselves, it should be considered a medical necessity and therefore an assumed cost. (My feelings on medical necessities actually having a cost, though, are a different matter.)

 

Could you give me a link to information on the existing vaccination programs? I tried searching, but I haven't found an actual implementation.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dash Lambda said:

I agree. But humanity sucks, so no matter how wrong you believe someone is you have to accommodate them if you want to solve their problem. What I'm arguing is that manipulative and forceful solutions are unethical and unstable, and therefore aren't worth employing.

I’d label it more as state-run. Parents shouldn’t have a choice in the healthcare of their kids. 

1 hour ago, Dash Lambda said:

The only way to vaccinate a child at school without their parents' consent is to not tell their parents, because if the parent knows then they'll either accept it and take the kid to school or oppose it and keep the kid home. Performing medical procedures on children without telling their parents will get you a few kids vaccinated before the parents find out, then a few hundred (justifiable) lawsuits after they find out and start keeping their kids home. That is not a long-term solution.

I’d hardly call a vaccination a medical procedure. You only need to be a Nurse to administer them.

1 hour ago, Dash Lambda said:

Getting the parents' consent costs them only the time it takes to say yes. As for requiring them to do it themselves, it should be considered a medical necessity and therefore an assumed cost. (My feelings on medical necessities actually having a cost, though, are a different matter.)

If the school runs the vaccinations, it’s all paid for, if the parents get the vaccinations, depending on country, it might not be.

1 hour ago, Dash Lambda said:

Could you give me a link to information on the existing vaccination programs? I tried searching, but I haven't found an actual implementation.

In New Zealand the meningococcal vaccine is run at schools. It should still be so, don’t really have a source (and can’t be bothered) but I got it done at school myself.

[Dash Lambda]

2 minutes ago, floofer said:

I’d label it more as state-run. Parents shouldn’t have a choice in the healthcare of their kids. 

Parents would vehemently disagree, and in many cases I think they have the right. If they don't have a choice in something so fundamental as their child's healthcare, what authority do they have?

 

Which goes back again to the thing about going behind their backs. If a parent should not have the authority to decide what happens with their children, they should not have any authority over those children.

 

12 minutes ago, floofer said:

I’d hardly call a vaccination a medical procedure. You only need to be a Nurse to administer them.

If it were just putting a bandage on I would see your point, but a vaccination is an advanced medication that is typically delivered intravenously. If you don't call that a medical procedure, I take issue with your definitions.

 

25 minutes ago, floofer said:

If the school runs the vaccinations, it’s all paid for, if the parents get the vaccinations, depending on country, it might not be.

Yes. I addressed that.

 

26 minutes ago, floofer said:

In New Zealand the meningococcal vaccine is run at schools. It should still be so, don’t really have a source (and can’t be bothered) but I got it done at school myself.

Huh. I figured anti-vaxxers were an overwhelmingly American problem, 'stupid American' stereotypes and whatnot...

 

Anyway, counterargument: Did they keep it a secret from your parents?

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Tog Driver said:

So, continuing with devils advocate: seems like almost every one here is acting like you will die if you don't get vaccinated.

Your chances of dying increase, this is not a postulation, it is a fact.

4 hours ago, Tog Driver said:

"legal way to get rid of a kid"

 

but if this was the case then how did anyone survive before vaccines?

By continuing to have kids until at least 2 make it to adult hood and start having kids of their own.

 

Global infant mortality went from 18% in 1960 to 4.3% 2015 and that is less than 1% in first world countries.  the biggest single reduction in deaths was from the measles vaccine while overall better standards of living reduced diarrhea and pneumonia outbreaks.

 

It doesn't matter which way you split the data, vaccines still had a huge impact in child mortality.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

Parents would vehemently disagree, and in many cases I think they have the right. If they don't have a choice in something so fundamental as their child's healthcare, what authority do they have?

Should the health of an child be determined by their parents in all aspects, even if it is severely detrimental? There’s still much more to bringing up kids, but if the state can organize and provide the vaccinations, all the better.

32 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

Which goes back again to the thing about going behind their backs. If a parent should not have the authority to decide what happens with their children, they should not have any authority over those children.

They can decide what to do with their kids, unfortunately there’s much more wrongdoings these days surrounding this, many kids still go to school without a breakfast or proper shoes, let alone Vaccines.

32 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

If it were just putting a bandage on I would see your point, but a vaccination is an advanced medication that is typically delivered intravenously. If you don't call that a medical procedure, I take issue with your definitions.

IDK how you get your vaccinations, but usually it’s just a syringe. Just a pop and in you go. Even I’ve done an intramuscular injection. Never heard of any vaccine that uses a drip, certainly not common.

32 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

Yes. I addressed that.

 

Huh. I figured anti-vaxxers were an overwhelmingly American problem, 'stupid American' stereotypes and whatnot...

 

Anyway, counterargument: Did they keep it a secret from your parents?

I mean to say to use and amend existing programs. My parents and I had to fill out all sorts. In New Zealand it’s not so much anti-Vaccers, but the culture. We don’t really recognize problems very well or go to the doctors regularly, it’s especially bad with Melanoma and Cancer diagnosis.

[IAnthonyFX]

On 3/9/2019 at 12:16 AM, zassou said:

probably at some point the court can rule them willfully harming their children, and strip their custodial rights?

 and the next thing probably is they'll sue the country for violating their rights(?) and free will, because "they have final say" what is right for their children.

 

it's quite funny to think that in the states, some people who believe in some certain religions dont have to get the children to school because they dont pay tax etc. (and allowded them not to, wow) and the anti-vaxx folks can use this case as an excuse to avoid vaccination, i think.

well, in other countries like mine vaccination is considered to be a civil duty. As it allows for herd immunity, that way we protect the elderly or people which are immunodeficient as they can't get vaccinated. Also, not vaccinating your kids is considered minor child endangerment. 

[Dash Lambda]

18 minutes ago, floofer said:

Should the health of an child be determined by their parents in all aspects, even if it is severely detrimental? There’s still much more to bringing up kids, but if the state can organize and provide the vaccinations, all the better.

They can decide what to do with their kids, unfortunately there’s much more wrongdoings these days surrounding this, many kids still go to school without a breakfast or proper shoes, let alone Vaccines.

I believe the healthcare given to a child should be done under the authority of their parent or guardian, as they are the ones responsible for that child. If their decisions become criminally negligent, they should be dealt with the same way any other negligent parent is.

I consider refusing vaccination to be negligent, but I struggle to imagine being the one who makes the call to take away their children for that... Like I said, humanity sucks.

25 minutes ago, floofer said:

IDK how you get your vaccinations, but usually it’s just a syringe. Just a pop and in you go. Even I’ve done an intramuscular injection. Never heard of any vaccine that uses a drip, certainly not common.

Intravenous means it's administered to a vein, it doesn't imply the use of a drip.

That being said, I was mistaken -They are in fact usually administered via intramuscular injection, not intravenous injection. Though, that makes no difference to my point.

33 minutes ago, floofer said:

I mean to say to use and amend existing programs. My parents and I had to fill out all sorts. In New Zealand it’s not so much anti-Vaccers, but the culture. We don’t really recognize problems very well or go to the doctors regularly, it’s especially bad with Melanoma and Cancer diagnosis.

That seems to be a cultural problem in lots of places. Usage of medicine has become largely reactionary rather than preventative, and people avoid going to the doctor to the point of absurdity. Someone I know was just diagnosed with diabetes -He was getting lots of moderately severe telltale symptoms, his diet and heredity put him at risk, and he was being encourage to see his doctor, but he put it off for months seemingly because he didn't want to be told he had diabetes.

And it's not like I'm that much better...

 

As for the school thing, the problem isn't the vaccines being provided by the school. That's actually a great thing, both financially and logistically for parents. The problem is circumventing authority. While signing a bunch of forms is what you basically have to do in most countries nowadays for liability reasons, if you were to circumvent that stuff then, ethically, you would have to at least make the parent aware of what is happening.

[EldritchMoose]

As much as I would like to defend the idea that these are people who take skepticism to its logical conclusion and beyond, promoting the idea that anyone probably could stand to do their own research rather than blindly believing what governments tell them, I just cannot get past the fact that the crux of the anti-vax argument hinges on autism being evil.

 

Whether or not they want to admit it, a significant portion of antivaxxers see autism as a debilitating condition that is a drain on society.

[Tog Driver]

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

Global infant mortality went from 18% in 1960 to 4.3% 2015 and that is less than 1% in first world countries.

So that's less then 1 in 5?

 

I'm still stuck on "legal way to get rid of a child".

 

1 in 5 doesn't sound like any kind of guarantee.

 

I am just confused why everyone is acting like death is guarenteed for an unvaccinated child.

[XR6]

Just before I start going on a bit of a rant, I want to clarify that my definition of 'anti-vaxxers' are the types of people who: 1. try to shove their anti-vaxx ideas and misinformation down your throat, 2. think that vaccines cause mental issues and other made-up BS and in some cases 3. think the government are trying to brainwash them with vaccines (although that's more of the tin-foil hat type of person than anti-vaxx).

They can be all 3 or just one of those types of people; doesn't matter to me because I still consider them anti-vaxxers.

I don't consider the people that 1. have genuine concern and are worried about the side-effects of the vaccine and 2. base those concerns off of known side-effects and issues with vaccines to be anti-vaxx. I consider them to be people/parents who have reason to be concerned about the vaccinations and are doing what they think is best for them and/or their child(ren), and in that case go right ahead and don't vaccinate. I'm not stopping you.

That being said, even with the possible complications and side effects taken into account, I would highly recommend vaccinating. The chances of complications and side effects from vaccines is very small compared to the chances of you/your child(ren) getting ill and possibly even dying from a disease that could've easily been vaccinated against.

 

That aside, here's my opinion on the situation:

There is absolutely no way to defend anti-vaxxers. Simply put, they make my blood boil.

 

In lieu of a better description, they're irresponsible morons who think a 5 minute google search is definitive proof that vaccinations give your kid autism, social/motor issues or whatever else they feel like throwing in their nonsensical, made up stories.

 

Look at the news, you'll find articles like this that show what could actually happen if you don't vaccinate your kid. 

To risk that just makes no sense to me.

 

I have no respect for anti-vaxxers. They're too ignorant to face the fact that their BS and lies have been debunked by people who actually know what they're talking about.

It's sad that they don't want to face the fact that they've been misinformed.

 

Of course, there are exceptions to this such as kids that can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. In that case, it's absolutely fine to not vaccinate.

But not vaccinating yourself or your kid(s) because you've read some made up BS written by some idiot who doesn't know the first thing about medicine/healthcare is immoral, dangerous and idiotic. End of story.

[TempestCatto]

As others have said, I can't even hypothetically defend anti-vaxxers. While I don't like kids all that much, I think it should be a punishable crime (child cruelty) to not get them vaccinated, to not take them to doctors, etc. No one deserves to be in bad health, no one deserves to be in danger, and no parent should have to ever bury their own child. I wish if a teacher knew, they could contact someone and get the kids the help they need. Or if the kids are old enough/understand the situation, there should be a system in place so they can talk to someone (again, maybe a teacher or someone at school) to get them help. I think the president should declare a national emergency in that regard, to figure shit out. It's gone way too far. As someone with mental disabilities I can tell you, you are born with it. You cannot get mental disabilities from anything.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Tog Driver said:

So that's less then 1 in 5?

 

I'm still stuck on "legal way to get rid of a child".

 

1 in 5 doesn't sound like any kind of guarantee.

 

I am just confused why everyone is acting like death is guarenteed for an unvaccinated child.

a "legal way to get rid of a child" was a tongue in cheek response.  The idea was that it highlighted the dangers of not vaccinating while pointing out the more sinister side of making such choices.  It was not meant to literally insinuate some people are trying to kill their children that way.

 

Also I was addressing your question regarding how children survived before vaccines. Because it sounded very much like you were insinuating that vaccines have played no role in infant mortality rates.   Also in the western world it is not 1 in 5 it is 8 in 1000.  

 

 

EDIT: also not vaccinating is a guaranteed way to increase the child's chances of not just death but living with deafness or brain damage from vaccine preventable diseases. 

 

[Skanky Sylveon]

The last time I brought this up on these fourms, I was given shit for it, but I find it relevant. 

 

I was paralyzed from a flu vaccine, I lost the ability to walk, my job, and pretty much everything else other then faimly, I was not given financial compensation either.  Said reaction is known as Guillain-Barre syndrome.  Vaccines are known to cause it, and I was a rather severe case, I spent over a year in rehab and was released wheelchair bound.  I am mostly better now, years later still a bit weak but still getting stronger as well.  But I will never get a vaccine ever again, and I tell my story to others because I feel like they should be informed. 

 

I am not an antivaxxer, but like all medications, they have potential side effects that should be disclosed, and no one should be attacked for choosing to not be vaccinated. 

 

TLDR, let the anti vaxxers do what they want with their own body and stop fucking attacking them for it.  There are legit reasons for choosing not to be vaccinated. 

[Mooshi]

What debate? Anti vaxxers are stupid irresponsible parents.

[DrMacintosh]

In my personal view. I would vaccinate any hypothetical children I might have for the traditional life threatening illnesses. Personally I'm not a big fan of the flu shot and do not plan on getting one again. It's effectiveness is dubious at best because of how often it fails and how unpredictable the influenza virus is. But that doesn't mean I would not give it to a potential child of mine. 

 

So to be clear, vaccinating kids = good. Not vaccinating kids = bad. Parents should be obligated to vaccinate their children. 

 

However, I acknowledge that some adults do not wish to be vaccinated and I fully believe that as an adult you should be able to make that decision for yourself. As long as herd immunity can be maintained (the vast majority of people will still get vaccinated), the relatively small percentage of adults that do not wish to be vaccinated will have little to no impact on the general population. 

 

Of course all medical exemptions/complications must be taken into account. 

[TempestCatto]

32 minutes ago, Skanky Sylveon said:

The last time I brought this up on these fourms, I was given shit for it, but I find it relevant. 

 

I was paralyzed from a flu vaccine, I lost the ability to walk, my job, and pretty much everything else other then faimly, I was not given financial compensation either.  Said reaction is known as Guillain-Barre syndrome.  Vaccines are known to cause it, and I was a rather severe case, I spent over a year in rehab and was released wheelchair bound.  I am mostly better now, years later still a bit weak but still getting stronger as well.  But I will never get a vaccine ever again, and I tell my story to others because I feel like they should be informed. 

 

I am not an antivaxxer, but like all medications, they uave potential aide effects that should be disclosed, and no one should be attacked for choosing to not be vaccinated. 

 

TLDR, let the anti vaxxers do what they want with their own body and stop fucking attacking them for it.  There are legit reasons for choosing not to be vaccinated. 

I get those legit reasons, and I don't consider those people anti-vaxx. I consider people who believe it causes mental problems and what not anti-vaxx. I personally don't get things like flu shots because for me, it's not really needed. I work in the middle of the road for a living, so I don't come into contact with people (just those that roll their window down and give me shit). That doesn't make me anti-vaxx, it makes me more or less lazy. But like you said, there are perfectly legit reasons for not getting vaccinated, your case makes the point. And people giving you shit for it just don't understand then.

[Nowak]

I don't think it should be out of the question, especially since not vaccinating kids has led to previously-eradicated diseases (like measles, which was considered "eradicated" In 2000) making a comeback. Not being vaccinated against a certain disease and then traveling to a country where that disease previously did not exist is also a good way to introduce that disease to that country.

 

Just make sure that you get the vaccine administered in a safe manner to prevent the risk of side effects, namely what @Skanky Sylveon described. But still, get vaccinated. Help control the spread of disease, not contribute to it.

[Tog Driver]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

a "legal way to get rid of a child" was a tongue in cheek response.

Oh, sarcasm over the internet. . .

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

Also I was addressing your question regarding how children survived before vaccines. Because it sounded very much like you were insinuating that vaccines have played no role in infant mortality rates.   Also in the western world it is not 1 in 5 it is 8 in 1000.  

because I was taking "legal way to get rid of a child" more literally and someone replied "Didn't think of that" to me it sounded like some people actually thought there is a %100 chance of death of not vaccinated, I was trying to point out if it was %100 non of us would be here.

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

EDIT: also not vaccinating is a guaranteed way to increase the child's chances of not just death but living with deafness or brain damage from vaccine preventable diseases. 

technically, getting vaccinated is a guaranteed way to increase the chances of vaccine related complications. . .

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Tog Driver said:

technically, getting vaccinated is a guaranteed way to increase the chances of vaccine related complications. . .

You mean the ones that are like 1 in a few million and are rarely permanent?  Sure, but why would you shy away from something with odds at 1 in 3 million of going wrong when the odds of it saving you from permanent disability are more like 1 in a 100? 

 

As I said right back at the start, there is no rational way to argue against vaccines.

[Tog Driver]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

You mean the ones that are like 1 in a few million and are rarely permanent?  Sure, but why would you shy away from something with odds at 1 in 3 million of going wrong when the odds of it saving you from permanent disability are more like 1 in a 100? 

There's a reason I said "technically".

[Guest]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:25 PM, Dash Lambda said:

I believe the healthcare given to a child should be done under the authority of their parent or guardian, as they are the ones responsible for that child. If their decisions become criminally negligent, they should be dealt with the same way any other negligent parent is.

I consider refusing vaccination to be negligent, but I struggle to imagine being the one who makes the call to take away their children for that... Like I said, humanity sucks.

There currently a Measles outbreak, which can potentially be fatal under development of Measles encephalitis. Not only do you endanger your own child, but other immunodeficiency individuals. Very negligent.

On 3/12/2019 at 7:25 PM, Dash Lambda said:

Intravenous means it's administered to a vein, it doesn't imply the use of a drip.

That being said, I was mistaken -They are in fact usually administered via intramuscular injection, not intravenous injection. Though, that makes no difference to my point.

Yeah I know, some people call a drip an IV though. Probably just getting mixed up with a blood test, but still trivial. Realistically you’re looking at 5 minutes for a quick jab. Like I said, even a nurse is qualified. That’s only 3 years training. 

 

Realistically I could teach you over the internet if you like. Some courses teach a 45 degree angle or something, but just like push it a little to get all the air out, prick it in like a dart on a dartboard (less force, it’s sharp), push down and then once it’s gone, pull out. 

 

I got taught by a vet, so not 100% the way for humans or correct or whatnot. Maybe more technique Idk, but it’s not hard at all.

On 3/12/2019 at 7:25 PM, Dash Lambda said:

That seems to be a cultural problem in lots of places. Usage of medicine has become largely reactionary rather than preventative, and people avoid going to the doctor to the point of absurdity. Someone I know was just diagnosed with diabetes -He was getting lots of moderately severe telltale symptoms, his diet and heredity put him at risk, and he was being encourage to see his doctor, but he put it off for months seemingly because he didn't want to be told he had diabetes.

And it's not like I'm that much better...

It’s definitely the number one health issue here. Not sure about the states. Both insurance and the condition can become much worse, can’t really help a patient who keeps quiet or can’t help themselves in this way. Very unfortunate.

On 3/12/2019 at 7:25 PM, Dash Lambda said:

 

As for the school thing, the problem isn't the vaccines being provided by the school. That's actually a great thing, both financially and logistically for parents. The problem is circumventing authority. While signing a bunch of forms is what you basically have to do in most countries nowadays for liability reasons, if you were to circumvent that stuff then, ethically, you would have to at least make the parent aware of what is happening.

I agree with you here. It’s popping up in the news too, I think in Italy, it’s mandated, as you said before, you need vaccination prior to attending school (unless advised by a doctor).