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WelshDdraig

Intel decides to contribute its Thunderbolt 3 standard to the USB Promoter Group. Will this be the new USB 4?

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2 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

they should make USB 4.0 be able to pass through power to a monitor from a PC so you only need one cable.

They could be doing this with thunderbolt 3 right now, it does technically support it.

 

Apple does seem to be doing this actually.

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So, likely just a rebrand of the more expensive Thunderbolt.

 

Then we won't see USB 4 on many machines, nor will we see a high adoption rate amongst users, as it'll just be a slightly updated port for TB3.


Waste of time

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For what I left behind

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No tears to cry

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4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

So, likely just a rebrand of the more expensive Thunderbolt.

 

Then we won't see USB 4 on many machines, nor will we see a high adoption rate amongst users, as it'll just be a slightly updated port for TB3.

as it is usb-c, and usb-pd are intertwined with thunderbolt 3

gsmarena_002.jpg

 

USB-PD without thunderbolt supports up to 100w as well

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21 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

seriously. if we're gonna move on to something else we need to move on to something else. I'm totally fine with having to use an adapter for older stuff. just serves as a reminder that it's getting old and probably time to update it anyway

ya and its not like new devices can't mix USB generations

18 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

they should make USB 4.0 be able to pass through power to a monitor from a PC so you only need one cable. In theory that's little enough power to be doable. I can see specialized monitors still needing power but it should be able to do lightweight/normal monitors on it's own.

USB 3.1 with Type C already supports DP out with 100w power delivery

 

 But its mostly used to charge a laptop from a monitor when plugged in.


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29 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

So, likely just a rebrand of the more expensive Thunderbolt.

 

Then we won't see USB 4 on many machines, nor will we see a high adoption rate amongst users, as it'll just be a slightly updated port for TB3.

 

Intel Ice Lake (and onward?) will include TB3 “for free” (relatively speaking) on package, so..

 

On the other hand TB4@pcie4.0 could take the role of the expensive addon...wonder when we’ll get the first glimpse of TB4...apple whole streategy for the new mac pro + 6K cinema display could revolve around TB4...

 

USB4/TB3 = a given

TB4 = expensive addon

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1 minute ago, saltycaramel said:

Intel Ice Lake (and onward?) will include TB3 “for free” (relatively speaking) on package, so..

Irrelevant, to actually use TB3 requires more expensive traces and devices. No matter what excuse people come up with, TB will be more expensive to implement.


Waste of time

Candour and lies

For what I left behind

I know the price was high

 

No tears to cry

No words to make it right

But now I know

That home is where my heart desires.

 

 

Pyo.

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2 minutes ago, floofer said:

About time you Windows rookies caught onto thunderbolt. Its much faster than USB, a welcome change. I'd prefer TB 4 though. 

Thunderbolt is really only useful for 2 things:

External RAID and eGPUs. Of which, Windows has been doing eGPUs on TB3 longer than OSX, hell, Windows has been doing eGPU in general for quite some time.

 

And eRAID is a niche use case.

 

So the additional speed is a waste of money for most people.


Waste of time

Candour and lies

For what I left behind

I know the price was high

 

No tears to cry

No words to make it right

But now I know

That home is where my heart desires.

 

 

Pyo.

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Just now, Drak3 said:

Thunderbolt is really only useful for 2 things:

External RAID and eGPUs. Of which, Windows has been doing eGPUs on TB3 longer than OSX, hell, Windows has been doing eGPU in general for quite some time.

I think both MacOS and Windows have been using eGPUs for quite a while. You could use them with express cards. eGPUs have been around much longer than TB. 

Just now, Drak3 said:

And eRAID is a niche use case.

 

So the additional speed is a waste of money for most people.

Yeah but you might as well have it. I don't see any reason, seeing as it uses USB-C. External SSD's are much quicker with TB, and TB is more akin to Firewire, in that would will get great sustained speeds, rather than a max that you probably will never reach. Something along those lines anyway. 

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Just now, floofer said:

I think both MacOS and Windows have been using eGPUs for quite a while.

OSX has only had official access to eGPUs since High Sierra.

 

1 minute ago, floofer said:

Yeah but you might as well have it. I don't see any reason, seeing as it uses USB-C

Thunderbolt costs more to implement, which means more expensive device or making sacrifices elsewhere.


Waste of time

Candour and lies

For what I left behind

I know the price was high

 

No tears to cry

No words to make it right

But now I know

That home is where my heart desires.

 

 

Pyo.

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Just now, Drak3 said:

OSX has only had official access to eGPUs since High Sierra.

They have worked natively since before that. Expresscard devices are/were recognised as PCI-e like TB, so they work pretty well, but no hot-swapping. 

Just now, Drak3 said:

Thunderbolt costs more to implement, which means more expensive device or making sacrifices elsewhere.

Are you sure? It is royalty free, it is just the thunderbolt chip you need now, which seeing as TB3 will potentially be USB4 it's going to have one anyway. Could just sneak in a TB4 chip instead. 

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Just now, floofer said:

Are you sure?

Yes.

 

Just now, floofer said:

It is royalty free, it is just the thunderbolt chip you need now, which seeing as TB3 will potentially be USB4 it's going to have one anyway. Could just sneak in a TB4 chip instead. 

Royalty free doesn't negate the costs or active cables or trace routing required to make TB3 work.


Waste of time

Candour and lies

For what I left behind

I know the price was high

 

No tears to cry

No words to make it right

But now I know

That home is where my heart desires.

 

 

Pyo.

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Feels great with the recent tb3 security issue being so recent


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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, LogicWeasel said:

*snip*

Thunderbolt is faster than USB 3.1, and Macs have had NVMe ssd's since they came out. As for DIMM.2 drives little impractical in a laptop.

 

12 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Yes.

I'm pulling the citation needed card thank you, because IDK either and I asked first. 

Quote

Royalty free doesn't negate the costs or active cables or trace routing required to make TB3 work.

Well TB3 is going to be there anyway now, although I'm not sure on how they intend to make it work with existing cables. Personally I think they rather confused up USB now, with USB 3.2 gen 2 now or whatnot. At least USB 4 will be simpler to say, even if it is a disappointing rebrand. If the chips are in the processors now, rather than the board, its just the interface needed, which is there. 

Edited by wkdpaul
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Maaaannn all this is confusing... I say we should create a new standard, with a proper naming.

 

I say:

Actually Universal Connector Super Speed 1.0 (to denote the version) 2019 (to highlights the yearly minor improvements) Gen 1 (to make it clear the bi-yearly or more releases, as we can't wait for enough advantages are put together) 1x1 (to signify how many lanes it has) With Thunderbolt (while it has support for something like this, as it is "Actually Universal Connector...", this is using Thunderbolt).

 

Now, we all know the massive problem with USB Type-C. The connector is flat, and so you can't insert it vertically if the connector is horizontal. You have to turn the connector a massive 90 degree to make it insert. Well, here is some good news:

 

Actually Universal Connector Super Speed 1.0  2019 Gen 1 1x1: is a square connector!

Actually Universal Connector Super Speed 1.0  2019 Gen 2 1x1: will be an hexagone connector! So now you need to turn less!

Actually Universal Connector Super Speed 1.0  2019 Gen 3 1x1: will be an octogone connector!

 

Actually Universal Connector Super Speed 2.1a  2020 Gen 2 1x1 will be:

Spoiler

headphones-jack.png

Now, it doesn't matter which orientation it is, it will fit!

Please note, there is no analogue audio output. You still need the an adapter. But next version will have. Mono first, and then stereo later.

 

Simple! Innovative! And unlike USB-IF, my connector offer paid phD programs to understand all this mess!

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Just to clarify the new name for thunderbolt 3 is not USB 4.0. this is the USB-IF we are talking about. It is simply USB4. There is neither a space or a .0 after. 

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2 hours ago, FPSwithaWacomTablet said:

Uhh, USB over Thunderbolt? Have they fixed Thunderbolt's IOMMU issue?

No, that said it wasn't actually Intel's fault. It was an OS issue (granted as far as we can tell most major OS's) not an Intel design flaw this time. Theoretically this would also affect pcie/nvme ports too, that said most people don't plug in random graphics cards and things they find. That said it's totally possible to make and distrivute basically infected graphics cards and sell them on say Alibaba if I understand this vulnerablity correctly. That wouldn't have actually been a bad strategy come to think of it. 

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Oh nice. So it turns out this is the USB4 specification. I erad the OP and was under the impression that it was just a rumor/speculation at this point.

Anandtech: USB4 Specification Announced: Adopting Thunderbolt 3 Protocol for 40 Gbps USB

 

It won't be fully finalized until the middle of 2019, but the features already agreed upon are USB-C for the interface, backwards compatibility with USB 2.0, 3.2 and TB3 interfaces, 40Gbps support, power delivery and some display protocols.

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doing up a summary diagram of USB hub topology, but in the meantime: Titan Ridge Thunderbolt 3 AICs are now pretty much usable in any system with a PCIe 3.0 x4 connection (without the need for that thunderbolt header thing) thanks to Gigabyte's Thunderbolt driver o_o

 

ryzen-5-2400g-gc-titan-ridge-thunderbolt-3-aic-angle.jpg

https://egpu.io/forums/builds/thunderbolt-3-amd-ryzen-5-2400g-gtx-108032gbps-tb3-aorus-gaming-box-win10-1803-theitsage/

 

yeah, that's a Ryzen 2400G system o_o

 


 

okay done

I55uLnzh.png

EDIT: the thunderbolt diagram isn't entirely correct: there's a USB 2 fallback connection that's similar to the USB 2 pathing in the USB 3 diagram, but otherwise the thunderbolt diagram itself would hold true for thunderbolt connections

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Ou yeah USB 3x7 v1.74 is coming 👍


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