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WelshDdraig

Intel decides to contribute its Thunderbolt 3 standard to the USB Promoter Group. Will this be the new USB 4?

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Source 1: https://www.overclock3d.net/news/input_devices/thunderbolt_3_becomes_usb4_-_intel_contributes_thunderbolt_3_to_create_usb4_specification/1
Source 2: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/usb4-thunderbolt-3-40gbps-type-c,38736.html
Source 3: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/4/18246182/usb-4-thunderbolt-3-specs-features-release-date (The Verge, Personal bias - avoid...)
mod_2_dock.png

 

In a shocking and (somewhat) unexpected move, Intel has decided to contribute its Thunderbolt 3 standard the USB Promoter Group (The people who design the USB Specification).
This will essentially allow Thunderbolt 3 to become the new standard for USB (Still based over USB Type-C, Thankfully), and will also make it fully backward compatible with USBs previous standards:
USB 2, USB 3.0, USB 3.1 and the recently renamed/announced USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (Confusing much?).

It will also provide Twice the current throughput of the current Thunderbolt 3/USB 3 Type-C at a rate of 40 Gbps, compared to the current 20 Gbps on USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (I hate that naming scheme so much...)

New Quote Added:
 

Quote

Yes, this means that Intel has handed over Thunberbolt 3.0 to the USB Promoter group, effectively allowing Thunderbolt 3 to become the next iteration of USB, while also maintaining full backwards compatibility with USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3.

1



The reason was given for this generosity, seems to be a pure market move, more than that of willingness.
With the upcoming Intel 10nm node, Intel plans to integrate Thunderbolt 3 directly into their processors. Which should mean a much wider adoption rate over the current implementation of Thunderbolt 3.
The Downside, however, seems to be for AMD. Since it will be baked into the 10nm node, that means it could put AMD at a disadvantage until they come up with a way to support the new USB 4 standard on their platform.

 

Quote

In a single move, Intel has ensured that their Thunderbolt standard will be adopted by every major manufacturer, while also giving them a clear advantage over their competition when it comes to implementing USB4 support. Thanks to Thunderbolt much of the software/hardware ecosystem for USB4 has already been built, which means that we should see USB4 devices relatively quickly. 

Quote

The USB4 architecture is based on the Thunderbolt™ protocol specification recently contributed by Intel Corporation.

It doubles the bandwidth of USB and enables multiple simultaneous data and display protocols. 

 

The entire USB4 specification will be published around the middle of 2019, along with an updated specification for the USB Type-C specification, in an effort to updated power requirements (possibly a higher power output over the cable, or maybe a way to discern cables that don't meet spec?). 
One this is for sure - that it can be expected that the new USB 4 standard will more than likely be based on the Thunderbolt 3 standard.

My thoughts?
Well, it's cool and really amazing. The lack of Thunderbolt 3 for consumers on lower end products is extremely lacking. Hopefully by integrating it into the USB 4 specification will lower (possibly remove) the royalties that Intel claims and can make the feature much more widespread. Again, the downside I see to this is for AMD. Would they be able to license the new standard or will they have to come up with their own specification for USB 4 without Thunderbolt?
Only time will tell. Either way, I'm really excited about this news.

Your Thoughts? Please leave them down below :)

 

 

EDIT: Aditional Images (taken from Toms Hardware & Overclock3D, provided by Intel)
 

Spoiler

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aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9FL0QvODI2MDY5L29yaWdpbmFsL0ludGVsLVRodW5kZXJib2x0LTMtU3VwZXJzZXQuanBn

 
 



UPDATE #1:
Thanks to The Benjamins for this. Here is the Update Announcement from the USB.Org
https://usb.org/sites/default/files/2019-03/USB_PG_USB4_DevUpdate_Announcement_FINAL_20190226.pdf

 

 


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I have no clue, but USB 4.0 spec IMO should retire USB Type A and B connectors and be C only, which then allows for more pins ( which 3.2 2x2 use) and more universally higher default power delivery.

 

If Intel is smart they would work with USB-IF to release the two TB and USB standards together to bring a better universal compatibility.


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I was nervous this would create a new connector standard, but thank god the hope is to maintain C


 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

I have no clue, but USB 4.0 spec IMO should retire USB Type A and B connectors and be C only, which then allows for more pins ( which 3.2 2x2 use) and more universally higher default power delivery.

 

If Intel is smart they would work with USB-IF to release the two TB and USB standards together to bring a better universal compatibility.

I kind of agree with the retiring of connectors, as USB Type-C is amazing... However, there are so many peripherals that use the Type A standard (keyboard and mice, as examples) that I can't really see that happening. Much the same as you can (rarely - but still possible) find PS2 on modern computers. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "Type-B" standard never made it to the PC as an input, did it? (I'm not talking about Type-A to Type-B cables like you got with mobile phones). 


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9 minutes ago, WelshDdraig said:

I kind of agree with the retiring of connectors, as USB Type-C is amazing... However, there are so many peripherals that use the Type A standard (keyboard and mice, as examples) that I can't really see that happening. Much the same as you can (rarely - but still possible) find PS2 on modern computers. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "Type-B" standard never made it to the PC as an input, did it? (I'm not talking about Type-A to Type-B cables like you got with mobile phones). 

well USB 3 has been the transition period and most device don't even have that many 10Gbps USB port or even Type C. so for PC's I would expect for a few years after release to have a mix of USB 3 and USB 4 allowing people to slowly get new cables and devices that use Type C.

 

Its not going to be a instance hard switch over to all Type C unless your a apple user (to late that already happened)

 

EDIT: Type B was mostly used as a input, its on most devices that attach to a PC like external HDD, BD/DVD drives, or phones (in the pas) There are 3 different shapes to Type B

Image result for usb type b

mini B

Image result for usb type mini b


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Posted · Original PosterOP
8 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

EDIT: Type B was mostly used as a input, its on most devices that attach to a PC like external HDD, BD/DVD drives, or phones (in the pas) There are 3 different shapes to Type B
IMAGE

Spoiler

Image result for usb type mini b

 

2

I actually mentioned that. I was stating apart from that. You never had Type-B as a physical direct input (as a port) on a PC, (as far as I know)


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6 minutes ago, WelshDdraig said:

I actually mentioned that. I was stating apart from that. You never had Type-B as a physical direct input (as a port) on a PC, (as far as I know)

oh ya, when Type B was created it was intended as a device/input port only. in those days USB was more of a oneway design, where connected devices where "slaves" to the PC.


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USB 3.3 gen3x3?


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6 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

USB 3.3 gen3x3?

USB express? (SATA express, SD express, CF express....)

 

also imagine a super crazy PCIe Lane hub just for USB O_O

 

also also still have to wait and see. thunderbolt still requires host-sided controllers manufactured by intel (those titan ridge alpine ridge stuff), so that doesn't mean much untill the USB-IF manages to introduce host-sided controllers on their own. and considering intel is going to integrate thunderbolt 3 functionality INTO their CPUs itself...

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Sounds pretty sweet, but can someone give me a quick jist of what TB3 is / why it's good? I've never looked into it nor used it (to my knowledge lol).


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Just now, Noctus said:

Sounds pretty sweet, but can someone give me a quick jist of what TB3 is / why it's good? I've never looked into it nor used it (to my knowledge lol).

Massive bandwidth -- you can drive a 4K or 5K display off of it while still having headroom for networking, peripherals and such.  It's also useful for pros who rely on RAID storage or otherwise think that USB-C alone would be too slow.

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16 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Massive bandwidth -- you can drive a 4K or 5K display off of it while still having headroom for networking, peripherals and such.  It's also useful for pros who rely on RAID storage or otherwise think that USB-C alone would be too slow.

Ohhh, good stuff all round then. Glad it's being merged in now with type C, so in 10 years when i can afford a nice 4k+ setup for my house it's useful for me lol.


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Just now, Noctus said:

Ohhh, good stuff all round then. Glad it's being merged in now with type C, so in 10 years when i can afford a nice 4k+ setup for my house it's useful for me lol.

Technically Thunderbolt 3 already uses USB-C, it's just that you need specific Thunderbolt controller hardware to benefit from it.  Rolling it into USB 4 would ensure that everyone gets it.

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Just now, Commodus said:

Technically Thunderbolt 3 already uses USB-C, it's just that you need specific Thunderbolt controller hardware to benefit from it.  Rolling it into USB 4 would ensure that everyone gets it.

Nice, even more glad this is a ting then. I'd like to properly upgrade to a full 4k experience for my cinema room/PC and ia quite like Type-C. Win / win it seems.


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1 minute ago, Commodus said:

Technically Thunderbolt 3 already uses USB-C, it's just that you need specific Thunderbolt controller hardware to benefit from it.  Rolling it into USB 4 would ensure that everyone gets it.

Which would be a godsend to the USB-C alternate mode clusterduck.

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1 hour ago, Commodus said:

Massive bandwidth -- you can drive a 4K or 5K display off of it while still having headroom for networking, peripherals and such.  It's also useful for pros who rely on RAID storage or otherwise think that USB-C alone would be too slow.

It's 40Gbps, to be exact.  The down side (first) is that TBolt-3 cables are fucking expensive right now.  And limited in length.  One meter cables (tops I've seen) are about $50.  It's likely that if the USB 4 standard "doubles TBolt-3" to 80Gbps(ffffuuuuuuck!) then we'll see similarly-priced cables by then.  Maybe even more so.

 

In other words: don't expect "cheap".

 

On the plus side?  40Gbps is plenty to drive 2 4K/60 panels, plus about 8Gbps left over for "other stuff".  It's quite stunning.


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Somehow AMD will beat Intel to market with USB4 baked into a chiplet given Intel's recent track record.

 

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I'm guessing AMD started plans to incorporate Thunderbolt 3 since this news in 2017.
https://www.gsmarena.com/intel_will_open_the_thunderbolt_3_standard_to_the_public_royaltyfree-news-25233.php


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4 hours ago, WelshDdraig said:

I kind of agree with the retiring of connectors, as USB Type-C is amazing... However, there are so many peripherals that use the Type A standard (keyboard and mice, as examples) that I can't really see that happening. Much the same as you can (rarely - but still possible) find PS2 on modern computers. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the "Type-B" standard never made it to the PC as an input, did it? (I'm not talking about Type-A to Type-B cables like you got with mobile phones). 

The main systems you'll see PS/2 on are also the ones which still have; PCI slots, parallel and serial ports. Because a lot of companies still need to use legacy hardware. Also some PS/2 keyboards have longevity measured in decades.


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10 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

 Also some PS/2 keyboards have longevity measured in decades.

The mighty M...


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3 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

The mighty M...

The previous F is mightier...


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This will be awesome if AMD starts putting thunderbolt on their boards. There have been a few times I didn't buy AMD because of thunderbolt music equipment. 

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@WelshDdraig

Update the OP with USB-IF announcement 

https://usb.org/sites/default/files/2019-03/USB_PG_USB4_DevUpdate_Announcement_FINAL_20190226.pdf

 

Key characteristics of the USB4 solution include:

  • Two-lane operation using existing USB Type-C cables and up to 40 Gbps operation over 40 Gbpscertified cables
  • Multiple data and display protocols to efficiently share the total available bandwidth over the bus
  • Backward compatibility with USB 3.2, USB 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3

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4 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

I have no clue, but USB 4.0 spec IMO should retire USB Type A and B connectors and be C only, which then allows for more pins ( which 3.2 2x2 use) and more universally higher default power delivery.

 

If Intel is smart they would work with USB-IF to release the two TB and USB standards together to bring a better universal compatibility.

seriously. if we're gonna move on to something else we need to move on to something else. I'm totally fine with having to use an adapter for older stuff. just serves as a reminder that it's getting old and probably time to update it anyway


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they should make USB 4.0 be able to pass through power to a monitor from a PC so you only need one cable. In theory that's little enough power to be doable. I can see specialized monitors still needing power but it should be able to do lightweight/normal monitors on it's own.


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