Certifications for programmers

[Dragonriser]

Hey guys, I just started out with Google analytics and AdWords as a side hobby and now I am certified for both of them. This made me wonder which other certificate I should acquire to be able to land a good paying job(though freelancing is my thing). Also I have started with aws and azure. This made me wonder whether I should get certified (entry level) with all the three platforms or just follow one for my career. My focus is big data and thus it would be great to get some veterans advice

[reniat]

For general programming, there really aren't any must have certs that i'm aware of. There are some around information security, (pen testing, etc.), but nothing that i know of for just getting a standard programming job. Most companies only require some kind of 4 year degree for an entry level position, though some don't and will take bootcamps or just a solid interview instead (usually smaller companies). I work in a large software development company (not part of the big 4, but a similar culture), and no one i've ever talked to mentioned getting a certification for anything, either on the recruiting side or the engineering side.

 

You do mention Big Data, which is technically a bit of a different field than general programming, with a different set of job pre-reqs. AFAIK a lot of big data positions prefer at least a masters in stats or math, but i'm not in the big data space so I can't speak to that. I only wanted to put my 2 cents in for the general programming. 

[Dragonriser]

Thanks a lot for your advice. To be honest I am a diploma holder in Computer Networking and Security. 

18 hours ago, reniat said:

For general programming, there really aren't any must have certs that i'm aware of. There are some around information security, (pen testing, etc.), but nothing that i know of for just getting a standard programming job. Most companies only require some kind of 4 year degree for an entry level position, though some don't and will take bootcamps or just a solid interview instead (usually smaller companies). I work in a large software development company (not part of the big 4, but a similar culture), and no one i've ever talked to mentioned getting a certification for anything, either on the recruiting side or the engineering side.

 

You do mention Big Data, which is technically a bit of a different field than general programming, with a different set of job pre-reqs. AFAIK a lot of big data positions prefer at least a masters in stats or math, but i'm not in the big data space so I can't speak to that. I only wanted to put my 2 cents in for the general programming. 

 

[fringie]

On 2/22/2019 at 10:52 AM, Dragonriser said:

Thanks a lot for your advice. To be honest I am a diploma holder in Computer Networking and Security. 

 

Sorry for the gravedig but there are certifications that are genuinely useful.

 

I know Microsoft and Cisco do certifications which are good for there respected fields, I'm sure there are other ones also but I can't really comment on those. I personally do a lot of Office 365 work, mostly in the Cloud these days so can confirm the Azure certifications are something employers will appreciate. I also personally learned a lot, it was a good way to gain balanced knowledge in the subject (compared to on the job learning for a specific requirement which often has left my knowledge a bit patchy at times).

 

Note there are lots of different certifications depending on what you want to specialise, you don't need to do them all or anything - just pick the best ones for your career path, even having one is good. I would say I'm at an advantage compared to people who haven't.

 

Azure certifications - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/browse-new-certification.aspx

 

[wasab]

GET AN ORACLE DATABASE CERTIFICATE

https://education.oracle.com/learn/database/pPillar_2?certPage=true

I can guarantee you that piece of paper is going to worth MORE than both the paper it is printed on and the money you pay for it. 

 

Also get certified in UNIX. You have no idea how many Employers in the IT field demand you have knowledge of the UNIX environments. 

https://education.oracle.com/learn/operating-systems/pPillar_6?certPage=true

 

When I applied for internships, these two are pretty much the routine questions they ask. Do you know about databases? Do you know how to use UNIX/Linux?  

[Spev]

In general certifications are far less impact for programmers (as a resume booster) compared to IT folks (IMO). However, that still doesn't mean you can't learn a lot from them and doesn't mean they aren't useful at all.

 

As someone above mentioned there are some great, challenging, and respected certs out there, for example in networking, CCNA, for example. Although that cert is a lot of router config and stuff like that, you prove a solid understanding of IP and networking concepts throughout, which could help you potentially if that's relevant for you at work as a software engineer.

 

I'm personally interested in some of the cloud certs, like for AWS, although I've found that learning AWS on my own hasn't been too bad. Amazon has a decent amount of documentation, even if you have to supplement it with other research findings.

[Dat Guy]

I have a Microsoft certificate. Basically, I can wipe my butt with it.

[Franck]

I am trying to think about it and Oracle DB and MSDBA are the only one i know off that have any value. I can't speak for Oracle DB as i don't have it but MSDBA back in the days they were offering boot camps for them and i assume Oracle probably offer the same. Mine was 2 week. The only problem is that you need to renew them. Alot changes over the years and your certification is valid for specific versions only. But my whole class we did have job offers on the table before we even finished the certification. Now nearly 20 years later that had very likely changed.

[JacobFW]

Just wanted to add that certifications are nice, but more important is having worked on actual projects that involve using those skills.  Many jobs will pay for your certification if you can show you already have the experience needed to not be a waste of their time.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, JacobFW said:

Just wanted to add that certifications are nice, but more important is having worked on actual projects that involve using those skills.  Many jobs will pay for your certification if you can show you already have the experience needed to not be a waste of their time.

Just want to point out that Oracle proffesional level certificate require you to have at least a couple years of experiences in the field already to be certified.....

[Unimportant]

7 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

I have a Microsoft certificate. Basically, I can wipe my butt with it.

Just like fiat money and college degrees, when everybody has them they lose their value

[wasab]

22 minutes ago, Unimportant said:

Just like fiat money and college degrees, when everybody has them they lose their value

But if you are one of the few who don't have them... Doesn't that make you worse than everybody?

[Unimportant]

Just now, wasab said:

But if you are one of the few who don't have them... Doesn't that make you worse than everybody?

Depends on your situation. In the US ppl get up to their eyeballs in debt to pay for their college degree. When some kid without a degree gets the job in stead of you because he can make due with 1000$ less a month because he does not have to make debt payments that should make you think.

 

But at least you can hold a sign, or peddle ppl around with that degree:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXpwAOHJsxg

 

There's other ways to differentiate and sell yourself beside getting the same stamp of approval everyone else has. Finding those is the real holy grail in life.

For me, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, that was solving the problems the approval stamped ppl couldn't, when big money was involved.

[Mira Yurizaki]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

But if you are one of the few who don't have them... Doesn't that make you worse than everybody?

All some certificate, degree, or whatever shiny piece of paper with an official seal, signature, and logo means is you put in some effort to learn some thing about the field in question.

 

It doesn't necessarily make you better than someone else. A fresh college graduate who only did school projects and the like may not be worth the same as someone who was either self taught or got an associates degree but has more to show for it, like a critically acclaimed Android app or something.

 

Besides, given the pace of how things move in the computer world, what you learned in school may be old news by the time you get out or get a job.

[wasab]

19 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

All some certificate, degree, or whatever shiny piece of paper with an official seal, signature, and logo means is you put in some effort to learn some thing about the field in question.

 

It doesn't necessarily make you better than someone else. A fresh college graduate who only did school projects and the like may not be worth the same as someone who was either self taught or got an associates degree but has more to show for it, like a critically acclaimed Android app or something.

 

Besides, given the pace of how things move in the computer world, what you learned in school may be old news by the time you get out or get a job.

I know most people have high school dimploma and I know if you don't even possess that, you have a much steeper ladder to climb. I know most people finish elementary school, if you don't even have that, you are illiterate and being illiterate basically means you are as handicapped as someone without a leg and arm. If most do, you are expected to as well. 

 

You don't have to attend a formal institution of learning of course but you better make sure you self teach yourself the standards laid out by the industry or the government. This is why if you homeschool your kids, you still have to send them to take and pass the state exam by law.

 

Certification by testing and whatnots aren't going away anywhere. Exceptions are simply the exceptions.  They aren't the norms. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

13 minutes ago, wasab said:

I know most people have high school dimploma and I know if you don't even possess that, you have a much steeper ladder to climb. I know most people finish elementary school, if you don't even have that, you are illiterate and being illiterate basically means you are as handicapped as someone without a leg and arm. If most do, you are expected to as well. 

And I know someone who dropped out of high school, but became a regional manager for a restaurant chain in Japan.  He also didn't really speak the language when they signed him up. He's still working there as far as I know as of last year and he'd already worked there for the last two years. But something more on the tech related side, there are people who dropped out of college and yet found a way to be successful: https://medium.com/techtoday/10-tech-billionaire-college-dropouts-79b6c3a38afb

 

Granted not everyone who drops out breaks through the expectation that they will never amount to anything, but if you're going to judge a person solely by whether or not they've earned fancy papers, then you're setting yourself up for trouble down the road.

[wasab]

2 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

And I know someone who dropped out of high school, but became a regional manager for a restaurant chain in Japan.  He also didn't really speak the language when they signed him up. He's still working there as far as I know as of last year and he'd already worked there for the last two years. But something more on the tech related side, there are people who dropped out of college and yet found a way to be successful: https://medium.com/techtoday/10-tech-billionaire-college-dropouts-79b6c3a38afb

 

Granted not everyone who drops out breaks through the expectation that they will never amount to anything, but if you're going to judge a person solely by whether or not they've earned fancy papers, then you're setting yourself up for trouble down the road.

If you don't have the work ethics to finish even the most basic education expected of you from the society, I doubt you will have the same work ethics and passion neccesary to do a good job in any industry. I can actually indeed judge your character by the fancy papers you hold. If you have a PhDs in something for example, I can obviously tell you have the passion to be crazy enough to think delicating additional 6-8 years of your life, living off of a miniumun wage stipend, to study in this particular field is worth it. 

 

If you are to tell me you have never completed something most people had, like high school level education, you better tell me a damn good execuse to why otherwise I am simply going to call you a lazy slacker. Your friend had worked hard to proved himself but most employers are going to have negative stereotypes about you if lack something which is consider universal. 

 

I actually do agree a lot of things learn to get these credentials are useless but it is actually the journeys and the experiences/trials you get out of it that count. 

[Unimportant]

14 hours ago, wasab said:

I actually do agree a lot of things learn to get these credentials are useless but it is actually the journeys and the experiences/trials you get out of it that count. 

But there is a large cost to it, both for the student who graduates with a mortgage but no house and to society, who will eventually be on the hook for the bailouts when a large portion of those loans eventually default. Not to mention the inflated army of bureaucrats running the whole show that could've been doing something productive instead. That's a hefty price to pay for a journey to useless credentials.

 

When you want something more then average in life, one should attempt to take the road least traveled. Back in the day, when only the best got to go to college, and only a percentage of them actually graduated, going to college was that road. You where something special if you made it. Today almost everyone goes to college, which is a huge waste because not everyone is college material - the opposite in fact - and it devalues the degree because the bar has been lowered to give these ppl who should not be in college in the first place a better chance of graduating. There's simply too many of them, this equality thing has been taken too far.

 

One should make his own decisions of course, all I'm saying is you should consider the cost (of all natures, time is also a cost) / benefit of everything you do.

 

As for certifications. If you can get them at little cost and it's a rare certification that'll actually help you going places, go for it.

But if it's a costly endeavor, for a certification seemingly everyone has, take the other road.

[Mira Yurizaki]

16 hours ago, wasab said:

If you are to tell me you have never completed something most people had, like high school level education, you better tell me a damn good execuse to why otherwise I am simply going to call you a lazy slacker. Your friend had worked hard to proved himself but most employers are going to have negative stereotypes about you if lack something which is consider universal.

And that person I knew had no real excuse to be qualified for the job he was offered. I highly suspect the only reason why he got the job was because he had connections to meet the owner of the chain. Also how could he have "proven" himself before he was even hired?

 

Besides that, the only reason why these so-called universal qualifications even exist is so HR can set up filters to automatically weed out the hacks. Trying to directly apply for a job these days has an incredibly low chance of success. If you really want a job somewhere, your best bet is to know someone who works for the company and can vouch for you.

[wasab]

3 hours ago, Unimportant said:

But there is a large cost to it, both for the student who graduates with a mortgage but no house and to society, who will eventually be on the hook for the bailouts when a large portion of those loans eventually default. Not to mention the inflated army of bureaucrats running the whole show that could've been doing something productive instead. That's a hefty price to pay for a journey to useless credentials.

 

When you want something more then average in life, one should attempt to take the road least traveled. Back in the day, when only the best got to go to college, and only a percentage of them actually graduated, going to college was that road. You where something special if you made it. Today almost everyone goes to college, which is a huge waste because not everyone is college material - the opposite in fact - and it devalues the degree because the bar has been lowered to give these ppl who should not be in college in the first place a better chance of graduating. There's simply too many of them, this equality thing has been taken too far.

 

One should make his own decisions of course, all I'm saying is you should consider the cost (of all natures, time is also a cost) / benefit of everything you do.

 

As for certifications. If you can get them at little cost and it's a rare certification that'll actually help you going places, go for it.

But if it's a costly endeavor, for a certification seemingly everyone has, take the other road.

I talked about certificates which is nearly hold by everyone. If this is the case, I doubt that is going to be cost prohibitive. 

 

I am not esteeming higher education. Some of them are debt traps indeed and being in college myself, I know many degrees awarded are usesless.

BUT

Here is what I want to point out. What if it is the not the knowledge you learned but the journey you went through to get that degree that make you successful?

 

Let's look at USA, a country with notorious high college cost. If we broke down unemployment rate and income level by an individual education level, it looked somewhat like this on average.

https://smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-by-education-level

 

Now, I am going to stand on your side and say this has nothing to do with the degree/dimplomas/certificates these people hold. Then what is the causation to this correlation?

 

Maybe the high school drop outs are borne of lower income and those with degree borne of higher income. By Gatsby curve, you can make a guess that family wealth of the degree holder is the causation.

OR

I can say that all the high school drop outs are uglier than average. By statsitics, those who are uglier tend to be less successful than those who are prettier so I can pinpoint causation on that, however riddiculous that sounds. 

However this is what I think

Those with a degree succeed because they worked harder than those who don't. They are more self motivated than who who don't. They are more willing  to make sacrifices than those who don't. And naturally, they have higher ambitions than those who don't. It's not the degree but their character be the causation.

[wasab]

18 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

And that person I knew had no real excuse to be qualified for the job he was offered. I highly suspect the only reason why he got the job was because he had connections to meet the owner of the chain. Also how could he have "proven" himself before he was even hired?

 

Besides that, the only reason why these so-called universal qualifications even exist is so HR can set up filters to automatically weed out the hacks. Trying to directly apply for a job these days has an incredibly low chance of success. If you really want a job somewhere, your best bet is to know someone who works for the company and can vouch for you.

He might followed his connections to success, most people can't. So what should someone like op do? I say he finish high school, get credentials, and work his way up to the same level of those who didn't get there by merits. If you want to talk about networking and building connection, colleges and boot camps are actually the best place to build these connections. You are literally surrounded by professionals who have both knowledge and experience in the field you want to get into, by peers who want to get into the same fields as you, and many chances to meet recruiters who constantly visit these places. 

 

To be honest, I looked down upon high school drop outs. Reason? Well, let me quote someone from quota. 

 

Spoiler

It[dropping out of high school] means that you have no staying power. High-school isn’t hard. All you’ve got to do is the bare minimum, in terms of work, and you can graduate (in most western countries anyway).

If you cannot even do that much, how well do you think you’ll do when you’ll be at a long, boring, repetitive work, or one that is sometimes stressful, or one where you have to actually learn new knowledge and skills (you know, the very thing you have proven you didn’t want to do)?

How do you think potential employers will see this? How about finding a life-partner/mate? Some women like the “bad boys” for a while, but in the end no one likes a slacker. If high-school is too hard for you, house chores sure would be a nightmare, especially balanced with professional life.

It shows you have no patience. The patience to wait for the end of this (short) period in your life.

Don’t get fooled by the stories of people who dropped out of college (not high-school) like Zuckerberg or Gates. You are, very likely, not like them, and most people who cannot finish high-school don’t succeed later-on in life.

High-school probably has nothing of importance to teach to people except for these two things: Patience and staying power.

You should go back. Because at this moment, you are a failure.

Unless, that is, you decided to go another, entirely legitimate way like an apprenticeship, or some other hands-on approach to learning skills. In which case, kudos.

 

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

5 minutes ago, wasab said:

He might followed his connections to success, most people can't. So what should someone like op do? I say he finish high school, get credentials, and work his way up to the same level of those who didn't get there by merits.

And experience as taught me that if anything, those things are more like safety nets than anything to build a career with. Sure I have a college education and sure my high school self thought it was a way to get into a job that I wanted (I was being practical anyway), but in hindsight, what I did in college outside the academics or even towards my major was far more valuable than working towards the diploma itself. Yes I have a piece of paper that said I went to school, but does it really matter now? Not really.

 

There's a reason why I put my education on the bottom of my resume since the beginning and at this point considering how long I've been in the game, am considering removing it. It's ancient history. Nobody really cares. (I might leave it on if I'm applying directly because filters)

 

5 minutes ago, wasab said:

If you want to talk about networking and building connection, colleges and boot camps are actually the best place to build these connections. You are literally surrounded by professionals who have both knowledge and experience in the field you want to get into and recruiters constantly visit these places. 

Or you can go find Meetup groups and social networks, get involved, make an impression, and do something worth showing off. School and certs may give you training to do something, but nothing screams louder about how capable of you are than actually doing it.

 

5 minutes ago, wasab said:

To be honest, I looked down upon high school drop outs. Reason? Well, let me quote someone from quota.

And to point out an irony of the quote, they say graduating high school is easy. You just need to do the bare minimum. That already sets the mindset that even a high school graduate may not be worth considering. And that's not even considering the "why" of the situation. If given the choice of someone who dropped out due to say having a kid "too early" but busting their ass off to make ends meet over a high school graduate who after school sits around all day, works at a minimum wage job part time, and shows no real drive to get ahead in life, I'll choose the drop out to work for me.

[wasab]

37 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

And experience as taught me that if anything, those things are more like safety nets than anything to build a career with. Sure I have a college education and sure my high school self thought it was a way to get into a job that I wanted (I was being practical anyway), but in hindsight, what I did in college outside the academics or even towards my major was far more valuable than working towards the diploma itself. Yes I have a piece of paper that said I went to school, but does it really matter now? Not really.

 

 

If you don't have the willingness to go to school for it, you want me to believe you that you are willing to work on your own and teach yourself the stuffs? Most college graduates learn their skills on the job too. They have been taught how to learn and their college course work build their work ethics. You want me to believe that a drop out can work better without a good reason?

 

37 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

 

There's a reason why I put my education on the bottom of my resume since the beginning and at this point considering how long I've been in the game, am considering removing it. It's ancient history. Nobody really cares. (I might leave it on if I'm applying directly because filters)

 

 

 

 Of course no one cares if you are like middle age with long employment history to show for it. How's a new college grad going to market themselves other than the degree they hold? How is a drop out going to be more successful when they have neither the work experiences, skills, nor the degree to prove anything? 

 

37 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

 

 

Or you can go find Meetup groups and social networks, get involved, make an impression, and do something worth showing off. School and certs may give you training to do something, but nothing screams louder about how capable of you are than actually doing it.

 

 

 You make it sound so easy that everyone can do it. Once again, if you can't even finish school, you want me to believe that you have the self discipline  and are motivated to do these stuffs without any formal training? I call high school drop outs slackers and to be honest, most are slackers with a huge touch of arrogance mix in. They literally rebel against authorities and call their parents and teachers retards for trying to instill any discipline in them. You expect me to believe if they are left to their own devices, they can produce something that will wow the recruiters at meet ups?

 

37 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

 

And to point out an irony of the quote, they say graduating high school is easy. You just need to do the bare minimum. That already sets the mindset that even a high school graduate may not be worth considering. And that's not even considering the "why" of the situation. If given the choice of someone who dropped out due to say having a kid "too early" but busting their ass off to make ends meet over a high school graduate who after school sits around all day, works at a minimum wage job part time, and shows no real drive to get ahead in life, I'll choose the drop out to work for me.

I originally said if you don't have something everyone has, you are consider worse than everyone. High school is the bare minimum. Completing it doesn't make you stand out but not completing it does drag you to the bottom.  

 

Get a time machine, travel back. Wipe all the skills and knowledge you learn before your high school graduation. Drop out of high school and then tell me how successful you are. 

 

Having a kid too early like in before high school already underlines your sense of responsibility and wisdom compare to the average btw. 

[reniat]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Having a kid too early like in before high school already underlines your sense of responsibility and wisdom compare to the average btw. 

You do know that not all teen pregnancies are due to irresponsible behavior right?

[wasab]

45 minutes ago, reniat said:

You do know that not all teen pregnancies are due to irresponsible behavior right?

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