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SenpaiKaplan

Why Dont TR4 ITX Boards Exist?

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Simple question, probably a less simple answer.

 

I would absolutely kill for an ITX TR4 board, but even my keen google-fu cannot find one. If I can't, I would end up going X299 for my next build (since X299 ITX is pretty easy to find)


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Rendition of what said board would look like. Quad channel would be impossible, and cooler clearance would be weird; but it is sure as hell possible. @scottyseng @Altruistjxwrhwnrmpq11.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=70d5690745806acb16061fb3b744f984b309f32b


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Well that sockel is larger than the board

Same with the new xeon sockets

Don't know how you'd fit an appropriate amount of ram slots on there


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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, 19_blackie_73 said:

Well that sockel is larger than the board

Same with the new xeon sockets

Don't know how you'd fit an appropriate amount of ram slots on there

Posted above, a scale rendition of how such a board would work. Quad channel is impossible, but the board is (Yes this board does not have good VRM's, but the photoshop experiment was to see if the socket would fit. VRM's could be put on a daughter board or on the back side of the board)


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Probably because motherboard manufacturers do not foresee great demand among people who want a Threadripper platform with a single PCIE slot, dual channel memory and next to nothing when it comes to connectivity.

 

HEDT is for people who want more. Slapping it into a platform that offers essentially one step forward with two steps back doesn't seem like a solid business plan.

 

Besides, just because you can copy-paste a socket onto a small mobo in photoshop, it doesn't mean it's feasible to actually make it work internally.


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Zen is already memory starved, now you cut memory channels. Excellent decision. If you looked at the X299-ITX/ac from Asrock, you'll see they are forced to run SODIMM instead. Good luck putting a TR4 socket (which is about 30% longer and no wider than LGA2066 socket) into X299-ITX


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a do-all laptop double. Dried factory CPU paste, long memory timings, cooler cools the inductors but not the mosfets and an inch of unused internal space on both left and right

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV system agent undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1696MHz 0.812V ~ 1860MHz 0.95V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 19-19-19-43 2T Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Lathlaer said:

Probably because motherboard manufacturers do not forsee great demand among people who want a Threadripper platform with a single PCIE slot, dual channel memory and next to nothing when it comes to connectivity.

 

HEDT is for people who want more. Slapping it into a platform that offers essentially one step forward with two steps back doesn't seem like a solid business plan.

 

Besides, just because you can copy-paste a socket onto a small mobo in photoshop, it doesn't mean it's feasible to actually make it work internally.

Thats very fair. I would personally kill for more HEDT platforms to support ITX, because in current gen only one board exists for Intel, and that's it (other than server boards for Xeon chips, but im talking consumer).

 

But, thats probably me and like... two other people.


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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because the size of the socket, the number of memory channels, the fact with TR4 you also imply an expected power draw that requires more solid VRM design than would fit on an ITX board, the fact that TR4's featureset (lots of expansion) doesnt suit the ITX formfactor, and the fact that most likely even for you just going AM4 gives you plenty of CPU horsepower either way.

 

or in other words, same reason why there's no dual-xeon standard ATX boards: LITERALLY 5 people care.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, Jurrunio said:

Zen is already memory starved, now you cut memory channels. Excellent decision. If you looked at the X299-ITX/ac from Asrock, you'll see they are forced to run SODIMM instead. Good luck putting a TR4 socket (which is about 30% longer and no wider than LGA2066 socket) into X299-ITX

I was actually just looking at that exact board for my next system.

 

For an X399-ITX I could see a similar concession made.


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, manikyath said:

because the size of the socket, the number of memory channels, the fact with TR4 you also imply an expected power draw that requires more solid VRM design than would fit on an ITX board, the fact that TR4's featureset (lots of expansion) doesnt suit the ITX formfactor, and the fact that most likely even for you just going AM4 gives you plenty of CPU horsepower either way.

 

or in other words, same reason why there's no dual-xeon standard ATX boards: LITERALLY 5 people care.

I would happily go AM4 if I could get more than 8 cores in a socket, but either Zen 3 will change that or I go Intel for my next build.


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Just now, SenpaiKaplan said:

I would happily go AM4 if I could get more than 8 cores in a socket, but either Zen 3 will change that or I go Intel for my next build.

why do you need more than 8 (hyperthreaded) cores in ITX?

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3 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

I was actually just looking at that exact board for my next system.

 

For an X399-ITX I could see a similar concession made.

It's just not possible. Either you lose most of your rear I/O ,or you lose all the SATA ports.in order to fit the socket. Not to mention TR doesnt have a FIVR like Skylake-X does so it needs a much bigger VRM to supply more current and a separate SOC VRM to run the CPUs even at stock.


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a do-all laptop double. Dried factory CPU paste, long memory timings, cooler cools the inductors but not the mosfets and an inch of unused internal space on both left and right

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV system agent undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1696MHz 0.812V ~ 1860MHz 0.95V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 19-19-19-43 2T Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, manikyath said:

why do you need more than 8 (hyperthreaded) cores in ITX?

Cramming an Unraid-ed dual purpose system into as small of a case as possible for... reasons.

 

I own an ATX Super-Tower, it is infact right beside me with my current build in it. But that's just no fun.


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Just now, SenpaiKaplan said:

Cramming an Unraid-ed dual purpose system into as small of a case as possible for... reasons.

 

I own an ATX Super-Tower, it is infact right beside me with my current build in it. But that's just no fun.

still.. what are you gonna cram into a desktop that small that requires so many cores?

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, manikyath said:

still.. what are you gonna cram into a desktop that small that requires so many cores?

Ideally:

No less than 6 cores for the main system, I would game, record, edit, and do general productivity on this system.

Secondary boot is a Plex media server and NAS that is able to handle transcoding multiple instances of 1080P videos.


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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Just now, SenpaiKaplan said:

Ideally:

No less than 6 cores for the main system, I would game, record, edit, and do general productivity on this system.

Secondary boot is a Plex media server and NAS that is able to handle transcoding multiple instances of 1080P videos.

off of storage.. in a tiny chassis?

 

sounds like you may be one of the few customers where compact micro ATX midtowers make a lot of sense.

 

they make ones that literally have millimeters extra height beyond the power supply and height of the motherboard, and they usually have room for disks somewhere in there too.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, manikyath said:

off of storage.. in a tiny chassis?

 

sounds like you may be one of the few customers where compact micro ATX midtowers make a lot of sense.

 

they make ones that literally have millimeters extra height beyond the power supply and height of the motherboard, and they usually have room for disks somewhere in there too.

Yep, the case I have (which inspired this build) can fit 2 HDD's or 1 HDD and 2 SSD's as I intend on using it. (8TB HDD with Optane cacheing for the NAS/Plex server, 2 SSD's for the main server+NVME Boot)

 

Why this case in particular? Because I payed near nothing for it.


Main PC: i5-8600K (6C/6T), MSI Z370M, T-Force Delta II RGB 16GB, Samsung 128GB NVME, Crutial MX300, ROG STRIX RX-580 8GB, Corsair CX 750, Fractal Define Mini C TG, Windows 10 Enterprise

School Laptop: Late 2008 Macbook Aluminum Unibody. C2D P7350, nVidia 9800M, 8GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, macOS Mojave. Also my editing laptop (FCP > Adobe Premier)

Phone: Galaxy Note 8, Android 8.0

Random devices in various stages of working: Gateway Solo W2000 Laptop (For writing floppies, needs a battery), iBook G3 Clamshell (for a custom build, just a case), iBook G4 (For Sale.), Surface 3 (Touch screen is borked, perfect otherwise.), Lenovo G580 (For Sale)

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