Power Outlets PISSES LINUS OFF. [Discussion]

[Technomancer__]

On 2/20/2019 at 12:47 AM, mariushm said:

 killer pain if you step on them

 

can confirm

[Nexxt]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

The table is bullshit and made by the british supremacist.

The Ground usually connects first, regardless on the Plug. 

That is true for Schuko, type F, the Swiss Plug. that is usually the Standard.

 

So the fuse we discussed a couple of pages before. Its also bullshit as the circuit is often protected with no more than the value of the plug.

So why the heck would you need 2 of the same fuses in the same Circuit?!

You NEED a fuse in the plug if you plug a 13A Plug in a 32A Circuit. Then a Fuse is necessary, obviously.

  

What are you talking about with the "Coated Pins"?! 

And the Child Proof is optional in many countrys or there are inlets.

But you know what:
Here in Germany you don't have that child proof nonsense (or you put in those inlets in) and still hardly any child dies because you can train your child that you don't put anything in outlets....

 

And why would you want to switch the Outlets?! 

Sorry, but that to me looks like a bullshit marketing Table that is to prove that you are right when its just random.

If a 3 A device draws 10 A from a Schuko, nothing happens? That's why fused plugs are good because they are individually tuned to the device. Childproofing IS optional in a lot of countries, only countries with compulsory shutters were listed as such. The idea that safety comes second because people should be hurt if they make a mistake is a fallacy. Switching outlets is a convenience and was listed as such, powering off a device fully without unplugging it is not a safety issue.

[mariushm]

7 minutes ago, Stru said:

If a 3 A device draws 10 A from a Schuko, nothing happens? That's why fused plugs are good because they are individually tuned to the device. Childproofing IS optional in a lot of countries, only countries with compulsory shutters were listed as such. The idea that safety comes second because people should be hurt if they make a mistake is a fallacy. Switching outlets is a convenience and was listed as such, powering off a device fully without unplugging it is not a safety issue.

No.

ALL devices (or at least most well designed devices) should have fuses INSIDE them, or in a socket near the location of your cable entry. The fuse would be rated for the amount of current the device uses.

The fuses in UK plugs are there to protect the house wiring from a device that would lack an internal fuse or which went through some critical flaw (a short for example) that would cause the house wiring to overheat and break down.

Also, it's there to protect OTHER devices on the same circuit from being damaged - when they made houses after the war and there was a shortage of copper and aluminum, the UK decided to use ring layout for the wiring and have those 32A circuits and have multiple outlets on the same circuit, so a single device that fails could bring down multiple outlets.

If you open up the fuse slot on a plug, you'll most likely see a fuse rated for 10A or 16A or some high value, even though the device itself would never use that much power. The device would have its own properly rated fuse inside, if it's a device used for multiple markets.

 

For example, let's say you have a portable CD player which can run from batteries or plugged in mains ... but the cd player will most likely use a power supply inside that's designed to work with wide input voltage, like 80v.. 250v AC, so the current would vary a lot depending on input voltage.

Assuming the CD player uses up to 25w, we could say a proper fuse would be anything between 25w/80v = 0.3A and 25w/250v = 0.1A ... you'll most likely see a 400-500mA fuse inside such a device, and a 10-16A fuse in your plug.

 

 

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, Stru said:

If a 3 A device draws 10 A from a Schuko, nothing happens? That's why fused plugs are good because they are individually tuned to the device. Childproofing IS optional in a lot of countries, only countries with compulsory shutters were listed as such. The idea that safety comes second because people should be hurt if they make a mistake is a fallacy. Switching outlets is a convenience and was listed as such, powering off a device fully without unplugging it is not a safety issue.

 

He's not worth arguing with. Despite his claims to the contrary he's either never taken an electrical course in his life. I've been trying to make this exact point to him for several pages before deciding he's not worth my time and effort but he's just too clueless about how electrical safety actually works to get it.

 

Likewise it's lear he's never had a 3 year old, (or was/is a terrible parent, i'm not sure which). They love to try and stick all sorts of things into all sorts of other things and you only have to look away for a second with them for them to try somthing.

 

56 minutes ago, mariushm said:

No.

ALL devices (or at least most well designed devices) should have fuses INSIDE them, or in a socket near the location of your cable entry. The fuse would be rated for the amount of current the device uses.

The fuses in UK plugs are there to protect the house wiring from a device that would lack an internal fuse or which went through some critical flaw (a short for example) that would cause the house wiring to overheat and break down.

Also, it's there to protect OTHER devices on the same circuit from being damaged - when they made houses after the war and there was a shortage of copper and aluminum, the UK decided to use ring layout for the wiring and have those 32A circuits and have multiple outlets on the same circuit, so a single device that fails could bring down multiple outlets.

If you open up the fuse slot on a plug, you'll most likely see a fuse rated for 10A or 16A or some high value, even though the device itself would never use that much power. The device would have its own properly rated fuse inside, if it's a device used for multiple markets.

 

For example, let's say you have a portable CD player which can run from batteries or plugged in mains ... but the cd player will most likely use a power supply inside that's designed to work with wide input voltage, like 80v.. 250v AC, so the current would vary a lot depending on input voltage.

Assuming the CD player uses up to 25w, we could say a proper fuse would be anything between 25w/80v = 0.3A and 25w/250v = 0.1A ... you'll most likely see a 400-500mA fuse inside such a device, and a 10-16A fuse in your plug.

 

 

 

Again most devices do not have internal fuses. I really don;t know where this bumbf is coming from. Yes my PC power supply and most other consumer electronics have internal fuses. Guess what consumer electronics are not the majority of things plugged in, in an average household.

 

Also most of the stuff in my room has a 3A fuse. That CD player would likely have one though the odds of a portable CD player with a mains connection that didn't go through a seperate power brick is next to non existent.

 

Also the copper shortage had nothing to do with the decision to go to ring main, (though it's an often repeated mistake so i can't criticize you for that).

[Stefan Payne]

26 minutes ago, Stru said:

If a 3 A device draws 10 A from a Schuko, nothing happens?

And what 3A Devices are you talking about?!
What about the "usual failure modes" of those devices??

Meaning that if you operate the device within the specifications, it usual fails in a certain way.

And some "electromechanical devices" have some specific failure modes like a lead disintegrating due to vibration of the Motor.

Others have in their manual "DO NOT USE THE DEVICE UNATTENDED" in the Manual.

26 minutes ago, Stru said:

That's why fused plugs are good because they are individually tuned to the device.

That's still bullshit because it shouldn't be in the Plug but in the Device.

If you have it in the plug, its a faulty design, especially as the device has no fuse anywhere in the world but England.

 

26 minutes ago, Stru said:

Childproofing IS optional in a lot of countries, only countries with compulsory shutters were listed as such. The idea that safety comes second because people should be hurt if they make a mistake is a fallacy. Switching outlets is a convenience and was listed as such, powering off a device fully without unplugging it is not a safety issue.

a) ever heard about the phrase "personal Responsibility"?? Meaning that YOU are responsible for what YOU do, what you do with your children and to prevent them from death.

b) Most Outlets are not in reach of the Children, why should I have the "Childproofing" in any outlet?? Though the plug strips I've seen in recent years always come with "Childproofing"...

c) Children aren't children forever, you only need those things for the first couple of years of their life, not even for most of their "child life".

 

Trusting the "safety" of the system too much is the real problem for you Brits it seems. As nothing can be 100% Safe and there will always be faults and problems. Some can be circumvented with responsible use of the devices...

 

Switching outlets is not needed for most devices, so why again should I pay for a switch in an outlet that never is switched ever?!

Also that point is also bullshit, as there are variants with that available, for example:

https://www.obi.de/steckdosen/kopp-steckdose-1-fach-mit-schalter-paris-arktisweiss/p/8199135

 

Or why not mention integrated RCD??

https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/fi-schukomat/

 

Or how about an Outlet with an "easy remove feature"?

https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/busch-servicesteckdose/

 

Or what about overvoltage/surge protection:
https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/busch-protector/

 

Or a take on trip (as in falling over the cable) protection:

https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/busch-objektsteckdose/

 

The one you want sooo much, with "Child Proofing":

https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/schuko-steckdose-mit-integriertem-erhoehtem-beruehru/

 

"glow in the dark" version:

https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/busch-steplight/

 

With a control light:

https://www.busch-jaeger.de/produkte/produktloesungen/steckdosen/schuko-steckdose-mit-kontrolllicht/

 

Or another Outlet with a Switch:

https://www.elektroradar.de/kombination-ws-4310-6euj-214.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-8PjBRCWARIsADc18TIh3hUJ_wKz1c8bAjg1PDzF4lO0gRuOA_9CGZCmngl6Np7aK8s4iaIaAlKwEALw_wcB

 

Its just optional...

 

And having more "diverse" choice for outlets is a good thing. Do you also have this amount of choice, just for outlets?!
 

Or don't you because its regulated to death??

You guys over in England seem to ban buying a kitchen knife to do kitchen stuff with in certain areas. 

 

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

I've been trying to make this exact point to him for several pages before deciding he's not worth my time and effort but he's just too clueless about how electrical safety actually works to get it.

Why are you insulting me?!
Because I've said that many of your claims are not true and totally exagerated?! Because I told you that you trust Fuses too much?? 

Because "Continental Electrics" might be different and there might be different regulations there?!
And you yourself said that you haven't worked in the field for like 20 Years...

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Likewise it's lear he's never had a 3 year old, (or was/is a terrible parent, i'm not sure which). They love to try and stick all sorts of things into all sorts of other things and you only have to look away for a second with them for them to try somthing.

https://www.julido.de/10-50-stueck-hanse-steckdosen-kindersicherung?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-8PjBRCWARIsADc18TJp0hBJNhlv-akyO1tpzgOtvAHplZ7t9aDTIVaOLiiVxH7qXExunEIaAsiCEALw_wcB

Why do you have to "childproof" ALL the Outlet when a Three year old is only one Year long three years old?

 

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Again most devices do not have internal fuses.

Repeating the claim doesn't make it more right.

Every electronics device has a fuse.

 

Other devices that don't have a fuse usually don't need them.

And, as maruishm said, the devices should have fuses inside, not in the Plug. YOU have fuses in the Plug because your electric grid is not safe without the fuse.

And as I've told you, you'd burn down your house when you don't have fuses in the Plug.

We do not, we have the right Fuses in the Breaker Box.

 

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Yes my PC power supply and most other consumer electronics have internal fuses. Guess what consumer electronics are not the majority of things plugged in, in an average household.

Oh yeah?
TV, maybe Sat Receiver, phone Charger, PC, Display, Nintendo DS Power Adaptor. In short everything "electronic" has fuses. IIRC even the Electronics for 

 

My Delongi Frier has THERMAL fuses, as does the contact grill.

Haven't opened a washing machine in a long time but they also have fuses - thermal fuses for the Motor for example.

 

What you are really doing is insulting the engineers designing the devices and over-trusting the importance of fuses...

 

You didn't debunk me with articles about FAILURE MODES of those devices.

 

Other devices, like for example the desk fan you're talking about, are devices that must not be used supervision...

And if the Motor gets too warm and starts to smell, you turn it off...

 

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Also most of the stuff in my room has a 3A fuse.

Yeah and if I wanted to, I could install 6A breakers for those things, if I wanted to:

https://www.elektroversand-schmidt.de/product_info.php?cPath=3_10_3089_3093&products_id=13335&osCsid=bvhsagforg9s0o7pg4pf0alu92

 

I could get TEN 16A breakers for that price but I could do it.

There are even 0,5, 1A, 2A, 4A in K-Characteristic as well.

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

3 hours ago, Lukyp said:

Even on type L

Yeah, even on the US Plug

I had one with an Adaptor.

Right now I have an Adaptor and use a british plug inside them.

 

The British plug is like 50% larger.

Or even more than that.

Its huge...

Compared to the US Plug its like 3-4 times the size...

 

For the US guys:
The 2 pins of your plug fits without any problems between the 2 live and neutral and also the two live and ground.

Just to give you an idea of how huge that plug is.

Is there anything more enormous than the british plug??

3 hours ago, mariushm said:

The coated pins thing is ... uk plugs have the big long earth prong that's not coated, but the live and neutral pins have a big of insulation on them ... if you don't insert the plug all the way, you can't touch the live and neutral wires with a blade or a wire or fingers. 

 

That they mean?!
Oh my god...

 

 

That stuff is needed for their system so that the "normal people" can't touch live parts. As you correctly stated, that's not needed for the Schuko or Swiss Plug (Swiss is the 2pin exagonalish type. In Switzerland they have a 3rd pin) and only works one way. 

 

Quote

This is needed basically because the outlets are flat.

Yeah, exactly, that is something that's needed for

 

Quote

Schucko works around that by having the outlets recessed, in a depression, so by the time the pins go deep inside to make the actual contact, you should not be able to insert anything between plug and outlet and the earth contacts on the sides already made contact.

Exactly, as long as the Top Cover is on the Outlet. Without that it is possible but even then its rather hard...

In the end Schuko is the simpler system while the British thing is just overly complicated and totally incompatible with all of the European plugs.

 

Wasn't there something else where the British had something overly complicated that didn't work too well, while the Germans had something simple and reliable??

 

the CEE 7/7 is compatible with at least the German and French System (wich only differ in the Ground Coonnection)...

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

I had one with an Adaptor.

I have one too, just because the passthrough for my powerline is shucko only and not compatible with type L like the usual ones you often see there

 

Spoiler

They often look like those

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Guest

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Again most devices do not have internal fuses. I really don;t know where this bumbf is coming from. Yes my PC power supply and most other consumer electronics have internal fuses. Guess what consumer electronics are not the majority of things plugged in, in an average household.

I challenge this assertion.

 

What are you suggesting is the most common things plugged in?

 

In my room, it's mostly electronics, and a couple of lamps, and a desk fan that's only in use during a few hot days in the summer. The majority of items in here are electronic.

 

Downstairs, same thing.

 

MAYBE with a kitchen, you've got small appliances, etc, but that's just one room in the entire home.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

MAYBE with a kitchen, you've got small appliances, etc, but that's just one room in the entire home.

Even there most of the stuff is electronics...

Your washing machine, the dryer after that, probably the oven, cookfield, dish washer.

 

All those things are full of electronics (well the more the newer the device)...

 

Back in the day it was electromechanical but due to added features and stuff like that it became more and more a computer inside.

IIRC I've seen a Z80 inside a washing machine or something like that. ANd that was like 20 years ago...

[Nexxt]

 

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

If you have it in the plug, its a faulty design, especially as the device has no fuse anywhere in the world but England.

 

a) ever heard about the phrase "personal Responsibility"?? Meaning that YOU are responsible for what YOU do, what you do with your children and to prevent them from death.

b) Most Outlets are not in reach of the Children, why should I have the "Childproofing" in any outlet?? Though the plug strips I've seen in recent years always come with "Childproofing"...

c) Children aren't children forever, you only need those things for the first couple of years of their life, not even for most of their "child life".

 

Trusting the "safety" of the system too much is the real problem for you Brits it seems. As nothing can be 100% Safe and there will always be faults and problems. Some can be circumvented with responsible use of the devices...

 

[Switch Examples]

 

Its just optional...

 

You guys over in England seem to ban buying a kitchen knife to do kitchen stuff with in certain areas. 

 

Why are you insulting me?!

 

What you are really doing is insulting the engineers designing the devices and over-trusting the importance of fuses...

 

4

5 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

british supremacist

...
Here in Germany you don't have that child proof nonsense (or you put in those inlets in) and still hardly any child dies because you can train your child that you don't put anything in outlets....

 

2

A - The safety of children is more important than you seem to care, watching a child night and day without rest might be feasible for you but it isn't for me.

B - If a socket is out of the reach of children then it isn't a problem, you're right. But I've seen thousands of sockets at floor level.

C - They aren't children forever, but some mistakes shouldn't ever be made. I would never allow kids to be electrocuted willingly so I'm perfectly happy with regulations requiring compulsory shutters, all of the examples you listed are as you say "Its just optional...", the sockets are neither polarised, shuttered or grounded by standard or any of the items you listed.

D - You're a hypocrite.

E - You may be the perfect engineer who never makes mistakes but I do, don't put us on a pedestal like we're untouchable and would never create an unsafe device. Accidents happen and that's why we have QHSE.

p.s. I'm not from England, I'm Scottish.

 

3 hours ago, mariushm said:

No.

ALL devices (or at least most well designed devices) should have fuses INSIDE them, or in a socket near the location of your cable entry. The fuse would be rated for the amount of current the device uses.

The fuses in UK plugs are there to protect the house wiring from a device that would lack an internal fuse or which went through some critical flaw (a short for example) that would cause the house wiring to overheat and break down.

Also, it's there to protect OTHER devices on the same circuit from being damaged - when they made houses after the war and there was a shortage of copper and aluminum, the UK decided to use ring layout for the wiring and have those 32A circuits and have multiple outlets on the same circuit, so a single device that fails could bring down multiple outlets.

If you open up the fuse slot on a plug, you'll most likely see a fuse rated for 10A or 16A or some high value, even though the device itself would never use that much power. The device would have its own properly rated fuse inside, if it's a device used for multiple markets.

 

For example, let's say you have a portable CD player which can run from batteries or plugged in mains ... but the cd player will most likely use a power supply inside that's designed to work with wide input voltage, like 80v.. 250v AC, so the current would vary a lot depending on input voltage.

Assuming the CD player uses up to 25w, we could say a proper fuse would be anything between 25w/80v = 0.3A and 25w/250v = 0.1A ... you'll most likely see a 400-500mA fuse inside such a device, and a 10-16A fuse in your plug.

3

"Should" is the key word here. Mistakes are made and older devices are often under-engineered for electrical failure. You are correct in that the fuse is to protect the house circuitry in case of the device failing critically. All of your points are otherwise correct.

 

Devices requiring less than 230 V have an on-wall converter and built-in protections for mA values, the radio I'm sitting next to right now has a 150 mA protection circuit, you would be right otherwise in your second paragraph. 3 A, 5 A and 13 A are the only fuse levels here, such a device would likely be set at 3 A should it require the full plug.

[CarlBar]

1 minute ago, Stru said:

Devices requiring less than 230 V have an on-wall converter and built-in protections for mA values, the radio I'm sitting next to right now has a 150 mA protection circuit, you would be right otherwise in your second paragraph. 3 A, 5 A and 13 A are the only fuse levels here, such a device would likely be set at 3 A should it require the full plug.

 

Actually 1 A also exist, i've got a couple of devices with that.

 

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

I challenge this assertion.

 

What are you suggesting is the most common things plugged in?

 

In my room, it's mostly electronics, and a couple of lamps, and a desk fan that's only in use during a few hot days in the summer. The majority of items in here are electronic.

 

Downstairs, same thing.

 

MAYBE with a kitchen, you've got small appliances, etc, but that's just one room in the entire home.

 

 

In my room:

 

PC, headphone unit, and Monitor, internal fusing, (i know the PC does, the power brick for the monitor probably does, headphone unit is less clear).

 

Portable AC, (no sign of it anywhere in the operator's manual).

 

Fan, (nope).

 

Router, (probably).

 

3 different chargers, (i'm confident 2 don't, the 3rd probably does).

 

 

Elsewhere in the house:

 

2 fridges, freezer, dryer, washing machine, (between have observed services and some quick researching it would be unusual for any of these to have internal fusing).

 

TV, (probably yes given it's a newer model but i don't believe older models did based on incidents involving them).

 

Kettle, (yes for the heating element but not for the rest of the wiring).

 

Microwave, (nope, peak power draw spikes at turn on).

 

A few lamps around the house, (Nope)

 

Vacuum Cleaner, (nope).

 

 

I'm sure there's at least a few more i'm forgetting because i barely have reason to use them. 

 

Overall though there's a fair list of devices on there that don't have internal fusing.

[Stefan Payne]

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

A - The safety of children is more important than you seem to care, watching a child night and day without rest might be feasible for you but it isn't for me.

I'm so fed up with this argument...

Your Child is YOUR responsibility, YOU have to take care of it, not me.

 

But what's really bad is to force ME to have something to do with YOUR Child when we don't even know each other.

 

Also you don't need "child proofing" in most outlets anyway. Only for some that also happens to be lower...

 

 

Also someone told me that he figured out how to stick stuff in british outlet. So they aren't as safe as you claim.

 

And if something happens, it is YOUR FAULT, nobody elses. Not the state, nobody else than yours.

 

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

B - If a socket is out of the reach of children then it isn't a problem, you're right. But I've seen thousands of sockets at floor level.

I didn't because that's not that common here.

And still, its your responsibility to educate your child so that it doesn't stick something in the outlets.

But forcing everyone to pay the premium for your child is something I really don't get.

 

As seen above, I've liked to a 20 piece "Child Proof" insert for Schuko that works rather well. But still is no real hurdle for a reasonably intelligent child.

 

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

C - They aren't children forever, but some mistakes shouldn't ever be made. I would never allow kids to be electrocuted willingly so I'm perfectly happy with regulations requiring compulsory shutters, all of the examples you listed are as you say "Its just optional...", the sockets are neither polarised, shuttered or grounded by standard or any of the items you listed.

Dude, where do you live?! 

Your child is your responsibility. But forcing the responsibility for your child on everyone is something awful.

 

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

E - You may be the perfect engineer who never makes mistakes but I do, don't put us on a pedestal like we're untouchable and would never create an unsafe device. Accidents happen and that's why we have QHSE.

Yes and nobody except the brits have fuses in their plug.

ANd the fuses are there because the circuit behind it is a 32A Circuit.

 

And contrary to what some people might tell, I received Electrical training so I am well aware of the regulations.

 

And because of that, you can never trust a fuse in the Plug that should be in the device as some people have correctly claimed.

 

A fuse in the plug is only needed because your system is totally unsafe and for someone from another country sounds like a totally stupid choice to go for 32A and then put a 13A Plug inside. 

Nobody else does that except you. And THAT is the reason for the fuse. Not some weird shit like having a fuse after a fuse to be fused by a fuse.

 

The German technical term for a breaker translates to "cable safety switch" -> Leitungsschutzschalter. Its to protect the cable in the wall (and the outlet), not to protect the device. For the device you need a device protection inside the device.

 

Everything else is just total horse shit and nonsense.

 

 

 

So and now tell me for what I need a current fuse in a fryer?

For what do I need a current fuse in a grill?

Or the Delongi fryer. They don't have current fuses,.

 

But what you'll find is thermal fuses. one of my devices there were like 3 or 4 fuses - thermal fses obviosly inside... 

As some resistance wire aka heating element usually does not fail with lower resistance/higher current. They either fail open and just "stop working" or they fail short in a bad situation.

 

BUT: a more likely failure mode for those devices is overheating - and for that there are a ton of fuses in that device (I think it was the Tefal Contact grill).

 

You totally oversell the imporance of fuses in the plug. Because its not important.

It is needed for you and your shitty electrical system. THAT is the fact.

Not for safety or other stuff.

Because you must not connect a 16A Device to a 32A Circuit without a fuse. That is what the fuse in your plug is for.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

p.s. I'm not from England, I'm Scottish.

Same shit or worse, depending who you ask....

 

 

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

"Should" is the key word here. Mistakes are made and older devices are often under-engineered for electrical failure. You are correct in that the fuse is to protect the house circuitry in case of the device failing critically. All of your points are otherwise correct.

Yes and because we don't put 13A Plugs in 32A Circuit we do not need fuses in the plugs. Simple as that.

 

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

Devices requiring less than 230 V have an on-wall converter and built-in protections for mA values,

Not true.

In PC ATX PSU you have somewhere up to 10A or more.

5 minutes ago, Stru said:

you would be right otherwise in your second paragraph. 3 A, 5 A and 13 A are the only fuse levels here, such a device would likely be set at 3 A should it require the full plug.

No, not otherwise, I am right.

 

Device protection has to be in the device!

There is no discussion about that...

 

You and some other people are trying to sell the because of the 32A Breaker necessary fuse as device protection. That is not device Protection, that's a necessety due to high current. A Fuse must be there if you go from higher Current to lower current circuits wich is what you do. That is why there is a Fuse there.

 

YOUR thing is not safer or better than other things. Its just overly complicated, a plaster on top of a bandaid, on top of a plaster. That is what your system really is.

 

The Schuko might be older but its still better because its simpler!

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Portable AC, (no sign of it anywhere in the operator's manual).

They don't tell you that because its not a user servicable part.

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Fan, (nope).

Why should it?

Its a Motor with a switch.

Typical failure mode of a motor does not include excessive current draw.

Its more likely that it just stops working.

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

3 different chargers, (i'm confident 2 don't, the 3rd probably does).

What kind of chargers??
IF they are electronics, they have fuses. Or fusable traces.

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

2 fridges, freezer, dryer, washing machine, (between have observed services and some quick researching it would be unusual for any of these to have internal fusing).

The schematics of a washing machine I've found had a fuse - a thermal fuse for the motor.

Dryer has certainly also thermal fuses.

 

Especially for the Washing Machine and Dryer fuses would be bullshit because they are high amperage devices anyway, they use the whole 16A (well, more or less)...

 

Freezer and fridge probably have Motor Protection Switches.

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

TV, (probably yes given it's a newer model but i don't believe older models did based on incidents involving them).

Its elecronics. It has a fuse on the Powersuply.

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Kettle, (yes for the heating element but not for the rest of the wiring).

And why would you want something else?
The worst thing to happen is the Heatingelement overheating. For example because no water inside.

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Microwave, (nope, peak power draw spikes at turn on).

yeah, well...
https://hohlerde.org/rauch/blog/2012-04-24-Mikrowelle/

 

And sometimes it craps itself when the bulb goes "the right way"...

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

A few lamps around the house, (Nope)

Obviously...

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Vacuum Cleaner, (nope).

Ever heard the Term "Klixon"??

That's what all the freezers/fridges and also vacuums have.

You don't need no current fuse.

You need a thermal fuse thing.

 

3 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Overall though there's a fair list of devices on there that don't have internal fusing.

You're wrong and have no idea what really needs protecting and how to do it best.

 

If a Motor is the only thing in there then you want a thermal fuse for that as its most likely that overheating might be an issue and you want to protect against that.

And with that you automatically protect against overcurrent as well.

 

And for the rest you have the fuse in your breakerbox.

[Nexxt]

43 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

YOUR thing is not safer or better than other things. Its just overly complicated, a plaster on top of a bandaid, on top of a plaster. That is what your system really is.

The Schuko might be older but its still better because its simpler!

4

All of your points claim our system is flawed and our electrical system being, "overly complicated". Fine, let us break it down into statistics.

 

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/about-us/policies-and-research/statistics-scotland/

 

1.7 Deaths / 1,000,000 people caused by electrical fires.

 

Let's settle this then. What's the figure for Germany? I'll give this argument to you if you can back it with numbers.

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, Stru said:

All of your points claim our system is flawed

Yes, it is flawed because you need a Fuse in your plug when everyone else does not need a fuse in their plug.

That's because you weren't able to specify the breaker in the box to the same value as the Outlet is specified. YOu did some weird shit, protected it with 32A and thus needed a fuse to not burn the house down.

 

Just now, Stru said:

and our electrical system being, "overly complicated".

Yes, that's a fact.

Look at how your Outlets work, what parts you need. Bigclive has them disassembled.

ANd a Schuko Outlet is just a piece of plastic, another polymer (former porcellan) thing, a bit of metalsheets and you only need to form it and call it a day - wich is why we can get an outlet for like 1,5€ or so.

 

Just now, Stru said:

Fine, let us break it down into statistics.

Oh yeah, just throw around some numbers and ignore WHY something happened. 

Hint: in most cases it might be someone botched something - or stupidity.

 

Just now, Stru said:

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/about-us/policies-and-research/statistics-scotland/

1.7 Deaths / 1,000,000 people caused by electrical fires.

How about death by Electrocution??

The latest I found was from 2014.

And it was.

 

 

Eleven.

https://www.xing.com/news/insiders/articles/die-haufigsten-und-ungewohnlichsten-todesursachen-in-deutschland-781414

 

And most of those "electrical fires" is just misuse and abuse. For example putting a toaster under a cupboard...

Has nothing to do with the installation.

 

Oh and the Number I found for the UK was around 30. Though I have no idea when that was.It was in the indg231.pdf

And most of them are Electricians.

 

Also keep in mind: You are like 50-60 Million, we are 80Millions. (almost +50% more people).

Just now, Stru said:

Let's settle this then. What's the figure for Germany? I'll give this argument to you if you can back it with numbers.

You really do not know how statistics work, that it says nothing...

But I have provided you with an interesting number that showed that the German system is better.

[Mihle]

@CarlBar most of the stuff you mentioned does have some kind of fuse in them.

 

But some things don't need it. For example things that would draw for example 14A sometimes in operation and is on a 16 A circuit, wouldn't need it's own discretion because the 16 A breaker is already there. (It's just an example)

 

[dalekphalm]

Can we drop the child safety argument, please? It's ridiculous.

 

In North America, we're not idiots. So we buy these, for when our kids are young and stupid:

 

You can get a better look here:

 

It's a piece of plastic that goes into the outlet and covers/plugs the holes.

 

Whereas you could, for example, still electrocute yourself with a UK socket with a pair of screw drivers (one into the ground hole to release the internal covers, allowing access to the live wires). Granted, that's not very likely, but any parent actually concerned about their kids (especially if said kid has taken an interest in outlets) buys these outlet covers.

 

Which are literally pennies. You can buy a huge pack of them for cheap.

 

Example - here's a 24 pack for $4 dollars (Canadian - they would be even cheaper in the US):

https://www.amazon.ca/Safety-1st-Plug-Protectors-Pack/dp/B007TNL9WO/ref=sr_1_6?crid=2IR45SL31NG5F&keywords=child+safety+plug+covers&qid=1550989873&s=gateway&sprefix=child+safety+plug%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-6

 

24 is enough to outfit your entire house likely - or certainly any outlet a small child could access.

 

Now, I'm not arguing that the NA outlet is "superior" (though I quite like the aesthetics of a US style 3-prong grounded plug) - but the UK one has BOTH BENEFITS AND DRAWBACKS. Let's not pretends it's the best plug out there and is perfect.

[Stefan Payne]

So since some people are still claiming the Brit Plug is the best thing, here some facts:

There are multiple ways to archieve a goal.

Fuses have to be a value that protects the circuit and/or the cable. So you have to fuse your 16A Plug when connected to a higher current circuit.

 

And I don't think that Schuko is the best, that I'd say is the Swiss plug as its smaller  -> you can have an Outlet the size of Schuko where you can plug in 3 Swiss Plugs. And if you step on it you probably don't even notice it as its flat and lying on the ground.

 

So facts:
Live metal protection:
Schuko: Recessesd

Brit Plug: part of the plug is insulated

 

Earth first connection:
Yes, obviously. That is basic safety consideration. Most Plugs do that.

 

Fuse:
Schuko: Central in breaker box -> don't need it

Brit Plug: Fuse in Plug because Circuit behind is rated higher than plug

 

Size:
The Brit Plug is way larger than Schuko plug.

Roughly 3-4 times the size of the US Plug, around 50% larger than Schuko.

For a size comparisation: Live and neutral of the US Plug go between the pins of the Brit Plug.

 

Child Protection:
Schuko: Optional, after market inlets commonly (and cheaply) available.

Brit Plug: Mandatory, needs Ground to plug in. (wich also can make it more dangerous if the chid realizes to press it down the right way and connect to live with the other hand. That makes it almost certain that the current will flow through the heart -> cause Heart failure)

Conclusion:
The Brit Plug is NOT superior, most of the stuff the "Brit Plug Supremacist" claim is necessary because of the different approach, to get the same safety as the Schuko.

Schuko is to be believed to originate in 1925.

YOUR "superior" Brit Plug was introduced after the Great War Part 2: 1947 and is called BS1363  and to replace the old BS546 Plug...

 

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

Honestly the one that's used in India is probably the most easy to use,
i meant WTF is this ?




that is the most uncomfortable chord there is, compared to this that is used in India : 




why would you make something square and uncomfortable to insert even to a adapter/multi socket 

dont even get me started on this atrocity 

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Can we drop the child safety argument, please? It's ridiculous.

 

In North America, we're not idiots. So we buy these, for when our kids are young and stupid:

 

You can get a better look here:

 

It's a piece of plastic that goes into the outlet and covers/plugs the holes.

 

Whereas you could, for example, still electrocute yourself with a UK socket with a pair of screw drivers (one into the ground hole to release the internal covers, allowing access to the live wires). Granted, that's not very likely, but any parent actually concerned about their kids (especially if said kid has taken an interest in outlets) buys these outlet covers.

 

Which are literally pennies. You can buy a huge pack of them for cheap.

 

Example - here's a 24 pack for $4 dollars (Canadian - they would be even cheaper in the US):

https://www.amazon.ca/Safety-1st-Plug-Protectors-Pack/dp/B007TNL9WO/ref=sr_1_6?crid=2IR45SL31NG5F&keywords=child+safety+plug+covers&qid=1550989873&s=gateway&sprefix=child+safety+plug%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-6

 

24 is enough to outfit your entire house likely - or certainly any outlet a small child could access.

 

Now, I'm not arguing that the NA outlet is "superior" (though I quite like the aesthetics of a US style 3-prong grounded plug) - but the UK one has BOTH BENEFITS AND DRAWBACKS. Let's not pretends it's the best plug out there and is perfect.

 

Um seriously, you think those are harder to remove than to use a pair of screwdrivers to open the shuter and prod the live, (after flipping the on socket switch to on)...

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Can we drop the child safety argument, please? It's ridiculous.

 

In North America, we're not idiots. So we buy these, for when our kids are young and stupid:

 

You can get a better look here:

 

It's a piece of plastic that goes into the outlet and covers/plugs the holes.

 

Whereas you could, for example, still electrocute yourself with a UK socket with a pair of screw drivers (one into the ground hole to release the internal covers, allowing access to the live wires). Granted, that's not very likely, but any parent actually concerned about their kids (especially if said kid has taken an interest in outlets) buys these outlet covers.

 

Which are literally pennies. You can buy a huge pack of them for cheap.

 

Example - here's a 24 pack for $4 dollars (Canadian - they would be even cheaper in the US):

https://www.amazon.ca/Safety-1st-Plug-Protectors-Pack/dp/B007TNL9WO/ref=sr_1_6?crid=2IR45SL31NG5F&keywords=child+safety+plug+covers&qid=1550989873&s=gateway&sprefix=child+safety+plug%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-6

 

24 is enough to outfit your entire house likely - or certainly any outlet a small child could access.

 

Now, I'm not arguing that the NA outlet is "superior" (though I quite like the aesthetics of a US style 3-prong grounded plug) - but the UK one has BOTH BENEFITS AND DRAWBACKS. Let's not pretends it's the best plug out there and is perfect.

In, Schuko/European plug have it so there is small tabs on both holes so that you have to press something in to both of them at the same time, and it's not easy, it requires some force. That's probably harder for a child than to drag that cover out and then put something in. But I don't know.

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

.

 

Child Protection:
Schuko: Optional, after market inlets commonly (and cheaply) available.

 

You sure it is optional? I haven't seen one that doesn't have it in my country that is newer than 10 years. (I know it was rare on 30 year old ones for example)

Maybe the laws is different here from EU in general, I don't know.

[CarlBar]

8 hours ago, Mihle said:

@CarlBar most of the stuff you mentioned does have some kind of fuse in them.

 

But some things don't need it. For example things that would draw for example 14A sometimes in operation and is on a 16 A circuit, wouldn't need it's own discretion because the 16 A breaker is already there. (It's just an example)

 

 

Um i specifically checked up on the fridge and freezer part and i got a very good look at the internals of our washer when we had to have some work done a little while back. So i'm pretty confident on that. I'd assume the dryer would follow the same rule.

 

I'm also not disagreeing that in the case of more powerful items there's not much difference between the two approaches. But the sort of items that caused the big push to getting properly fused plugs on everything where stuff we'd be 1, 3 or 5 amp fuses on. People where often putting 13A plugs on them and that, (or specifically faults that would have blown the proper fuse but not a 13A one), had become the leading cause of electrical fires and other electrical mishaps around the home. So there was this big push to get things sorted out, it was an actual problem. We can argue over which devices it applies to till the cows come home but realistically it dosen;t matter. if there was the push to fix the problem then the problem exists regardless of which devices where the culprits. And thats a safety feature unfused plugs with a one size fits all main breaker for the circuit simply cannot match. Which is all i've been trying to say vis a vis fused plugs from the beginning.

[Stefan Payne]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Um i specifically checked up on the fridge and freezer part and i got a very good look at the internals of our washer when we had to have some work done a little while back. So i'm pretty confident on that. I'd assume the dryer would follow the same rule.

You are wrong.

Look for Schematics of those. They will have an integrated Motor Fusing thing, the Switch I mentioned above.

Also, think a bit:
Its a device that is mostly used unattended. 

And you're really claiming that such a device is not protected?!

Ähm, no, that makes no sense. It has to be protected!!

 

I really don't get your obsession with electrical fuses for current...

Especially since its total bullshit for a fridge as the usual failure mode would be the Compressor overheating...

 

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

But the sort of items that caused the big push to getting properly fused plugs on everything where stuff we'd be 1, 3 or 5 amp fuses on.

Again, you have the fuse because some horse shit that you did and they were necessary because someone thought it was a good idea to put 13A Outlets in 32A Circuits.

The fuse is a necessity, not an advantage!

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

People where often putting 13A plugs on them and that, (or specifically faults that would have blown the proper fuse but not a 13A one), had become the leading cause of electrical fires and other electrical mishaps around the home.

In that case the device was just garbage and should have had internal fusing wich it seemingly didn't have.

To rely just on the fuse in the plug is a faulty design, simple as that.

 

Also under what circumstances was it?
What devices??

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

come home but realistically it dosen;t matter.

Yes, it does matter as it was the devices fault. 

It should have had an internal fuse and not rely on the plug fuse wich is there for a different reason and not to protect the device.

The plugfuse is to rectify the stupidity of your circuit -> 32A supply cable...

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

And thats a safety feature unfused plugs with a one size fits all main breaker for the circuit simply cannot match.

Yet it does and there haven't been many problems because of that in other countrys. 

And there are other/better safety mesures than an old fuse, depending on the device and the use case...

 

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Which is all i've been trying to say vis a vis fused plugs from the beginning.

You're wrong, Fuses in Plugs are stupid and were only done because of the shit you did with the Circuit.

You put 13A Outlets in a 32A Circuit. Obviously you need a fuse.

 

And now you misuse/abuse that fuse for other purposes to cheap out on the devices...