Power Outlets PISSES LINUS OFF. [Discussion]

[Stefan Payne]

10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If an RCD doesn't save you it's becasue it wasn't wired properly or the appliance is faulty.

RCD are not common in Germany and only needed for rooms with Bathtubs or Showers.

For normal outlets only since October last year...

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

??? What are you talking about??

As for ungrounded stuff:
It is only allowed for "double insulated" devices, where no metal is exposed - or you assume that the ground comes from somewhere else (TV for example).

As for unfused:
My Water Heater is fused, the frier is fused in some way or another.

 

So I don't get where your "desire for fire" comes from. Its not a Problem with the way its done.

 

Allmost any electrical appliance can suffer a wiring fault and overheat and cause a fire if it's not properly fused. And most stuff isn't fused internally, (seriously stop claiming it is, yes certain common items are but there's more items in the house that aren't than are, the stuff that gets internal fusing tends to be things that are a particular danger, you won't find internal fusing for example on a desk fan, or a toaster, or a vacuum cleaner or quite a few other things i could mention), so you're relying on a fuse somwhere else, which means if there isn't an adequate fuse somwhere it is a problem.

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why are you trying to tell me that its more expensive?!

Here Price from Amazon.de:
https://www.amazon.de/Kopp-Schutzkontakt-Steckdose-Wandmontage-creme-weiß-113601071/dp/B006ROZU8U/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1550725455&sr=1-1&keywords=Kopp+Steckdose

 

1,95€ -> 1,7 Pound

And that the prices are higher in regions where you usually don't use/need the stuff should be obvious...

For example the cheapest Busch-Jäger Outlet is like 5 Pounds or so on UK Amazon and 3€ (2,45€ from not Amazon) in the German version. Because its a common product in Germany while its not in UK, obviously.

 

We've got different taxes. trying to do a cross border comparison is worthless. And yes i'm aware it's never going to be perfect but there's really no reason for a significant difference.

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

We do the same, the difference is we use 16A Breakers for 1,5mm² (or according to people its 13A for new installations and from what I've heard according to the new regulation, light and plugs should be seperate). 

We just use more breakers. 

 

I think your problem is that you have no understanding of how the German Installation works and assumes that because the Brits do it, so do the Germans and think that they are the same. They are not.

 

For example a German Breaker Box is beautiful and clean. 

 

Something like that:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrischer_Verteiler

 

In a German Installation, its common to use a whole Dozen breakers in a normal 3 room Flat.

A Washing Machine has its own cable to the breaker your stove has 3 Breakers and so on.

And from what people told me, with new regulation you have 1 breaker for light for each room and 1 for the outlets.

And of course the RCD for the Bath/Shower room.

 

Gods changing the fusing in the breaker every time you change what's plugged into a specific socket would suck. Hows thats superior?

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

Nobody is talking about electrocution, except you.

There are other situations where a tool might be misused or abused or something else went wrong that might require pulling the plug ASAP.

 

WTF, if your response to irresponsible power tool usage is to pull the power cord then once again you've got bigger issues than an inability to pull the plug out of the wall. Ditto on any other issue. If you've got an issue that needs the power cutting you flip the switch on the plug socket or extension, thats what it's there for.

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

Modern Power Tools are double insulated, so there is no need for ground because no metal thing is exposed or has contact with the power.

And that's not what might happen. There are other things...

 

A lot of UK power tools are still earthed for safety, (or they where when i did my electrical safety course, that may have changed).

 

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why the Insuls? Because I have shown you a situation where the british plug is not optimal??

 

What you don't seem to realize is that I'm talking about something that happened to me when I was younger, had the wrong clothings and a Problem with a power drill.

Thankfully the Plug went out of the outlet, without that, my right hand might be in a worse shape than it is right now...

 

So could you pls stop claiming the superiority of the British Plug without really looking into the other side?!

 

That you have to have a fuse in the plugwhen your circuit is fused with 32A and the Plug for 13A should be obvious.

But that is the Problem on YOUR end and not on my end. 

We use one lead for one "high power" device like a dish washer.

 

We don't do this ring shit you do.

 

The point wasn't to be insulting, (on a personal level), but to get across the point that our safety regs and rules and the like are setup such that if you ever find yourself needing to pull the plug as a response your so far outside normal operating circumstances that's it's a really edge case scenario.

 

I suspect in your case if that socket you linked is common not having dealt with sockets with switches is a factor. When your used to that you can generally knock a socket on and off without even looking at it. Ditto on the unplugging, it''s actually remarkably easy to yank them out in a hurry, (thats why they're so bulky btw, there's requirements in the standards for plugs about gripping features).

 

I also never tried to say there's never ever any circumstances under which you'd want to yank the plug. But given all the other options you have thats going to be a vanishingly rare scenario, (it's also not strictly impossible with UK plugs, depending on how it's plugged in, but i'd never rely on it).

 

The reason i keep going on about fire thing is that we had real issues, (relative to other electrical issues), when i was young with people having to move plugs about, (due to the whole bare wire appliances), thing resulting in some being inadvertently fitted with plugs with high amperage, (max is 13A), fuses and such devices overheating and starting fires when a fault developed had become the leading cause of household electrical fires, (The old cooker was and i believe still is the leading cause of fires in general at home mind, but electrically started ones were disproportionately down to improperly fused devices). So a big push was made to do somthing about that. Conversely given what you've said about using seperate breakers for different sockets you do have this problem unless your changing fuses every time you change what's plugged in.

 

Thats really where my preference for the british plugs come from. Combined with our electrical standards the whole thing takes a belts and braces approach to safety eliminating as many electrocution and overcurrent hazards as possibble. Ease of use is strictly secondary but i find them trivial to work with thanks to being used to it.

[cluelessgenius]

8 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Wireless power is insanely inefficient. Even when feasible, it is never a good idea to default to on a pure waste heat perspective.

right and the first petrol engine was the pinical of efficiency right from the get go

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

RCD are not common in Germany and only needed for rooms with Bathtubs or Showers.

For normal outlets only since October last year...

RCD's  are compulsory for all new builds in Australia at the start of every circuit since 2000.    Once again it appears our standards lead the way.

[mr moose]

@cluelessgenius

Petrol engines didn't hit hard against the laws of physics from the get go either.  This isn't about ignorance or simply not discovering a better method yet, there is only so much energy an EM field can transmit.

[Stefan Payne]

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Allmost any electrical appliance can suffer a wiring fault and overheat and cause a fire if it's not properly fused.

Yes and the German Houses are properly fused.

But for your "wiring fault"; no fuse helps as the connection has high resistance and thus gets warm and so on.

How do you protect THAT?!

The only thing that can protect against that is a thermal fuse in the wiring/cable. 

So your claim here is false.

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

And most stuff isn't fused internally, so you're relying on a fuse somwhere else, which means if there isn't an adequate fuse somwhere it is a problem.

WTF?!
Why does it matter WHERE the fuse is??

It works pretty well and we have rules for how long cables can be and how they have to be protected.

It works pretty well, so why claim you have to have a fuse in a Plug when the Breaker in the box is more than adequate?!

 

As for most stuff isn't fused: Not true, many things are fused.

For example the PSU of a Nintendo (3)DS or rather electronics is generally fused.

For example this thing:

https://www.otto.de/p/de-longhi-fritteuse-f-27201-1800-w-fassungsvermoegen-2-l-abnehmbarer-und-abwaschbarer-fritteusendeckel-148243243/#variationId=148314681

 

It has multiple (thermal) fuses.

And the higher powered stuff that's close to the rated voltages doesn't need it anyway as there is a "fuse" in the Breakerbox that breaks the circuit. 

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

We've got different taxes. trying to do a cross border comparison is worthless. And yes i'm aware it's never going to be perfect but there's really no reason for a significant difference.

Oh, what "different" Taxes you're talking about?!
The 1% higher VAT?!

That's negligable...

Germany has 19% VAT.

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Gods changing the fusing in the breaker every time you change what's plugged into a specific socket would suck. Hows thats superior?

Why are you so hellbent on the fusing?!
As I said, Electronics (like your Playstation) usually have fuses.

Other things have not really a need for it.

Other things (bigger Motors) have their own fusing stuff.

Why would you need a fuse in the Plug?!
 

You haven't given a real argument for that, you only claim that everything will explode if that isn't the case.

BUT: THe UK Plug is not that common. The SCHUKO (and variations of that) Plug is more common and used by far more people than the UK Plug.

 

And most houses are still standing and didn't burn down, contrary to your claims.

 

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

WTF, if your response to irresponsible power tool usage

Seems like you discard the experience of someone to claim that your plug is superior, when its not.

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

A lot of UK power tools are still earthed for safety, (or they where when i did my electrical safety course, that may have changed).

but why??

And you also have to use the Earth, even if its just a plastic nibble. That is not really an advantage.

 

In the end, your thing is expensive and complicated because of that.

The other Plugs are better.

And the "Schuko" solves the Problem without overcomplicating things...

 

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

I suspect in your case if that socket you linked is common not having dealt with sockets with switches is a factor. When your used to that you can generally knock a socket on and off without even looking at it. Ditto on the unplugging, it''s actually remarkably easy to yank them out in a hurry, (thats why they're so bulky btw, there's requirements in the standards for plugs about gripping features).

Another failure point, that also increases the cost and complexety of that...

As for the gripping: Schuko is also easy to grip and plug out. You should come over to europe and try it for yourself.

There are some new "low profile" plugs with a ring that are very flat as well...

 

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

The reason i keep going on about fire thing is that we had real issues,

Yes and my house also almost burned down because someone "forgot" a screw in a terminal...

But no fuse would or could ever prevent that from happening. 

 

You are trusting the Fusing too much and rely on them too much.

As a Professional let me tell you that the Problem if a house burns down is mostly worksmanship.

Meaning corrodet terminals, screws screwed with the wrong torque, too many terminals or too long cables.

Its not the system itself.

 

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

So a big push was made to do somthing about that. Conversely given what you've said about using seperate breakers for different sockets you do have this problem unless your changing fuses every time you change what's plugged in.

What are you talking about?!

Why do you think its important?!

Especially when the most compatible plug, based on a non grounded swiss plug is mostly used for electronics anyway. (like Boombox, Stereo and some/many Consoles)...

The Rest, even if it is not fused, is still pretty safe and might even have some kind of fuse anyway.

 

You don't need to have a fuse, you only need something that acts like one!!

 

55 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Thats really where my preference for the british plugs come from. Combined with our electrical standards the whole thing takes a belts and braces approach to safety eliminating as many electrocution and overcurrent hazards as possibble. Ease of use is strictly secondary but i find them trivial to work with thanks to being used to it.

Are you an Electrician???
Or why do you think that is?
Have you seen the German stuff closer??

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

We do the same, the difference is we use 16A Breakers for 1,5mm² (or according to people its 13A for new installations and from what I've heard according to the new regulation, light and plugs should be seperate). 

We just use more breakers.

In Italy is pretty much the same, but the breakers are separated by 10A (lights, 1.5mm) and 16A (everything else, 2.5mm)

 

In my house which is old for example I got two, for the two lines I mentioned, and the other ones are for earth faults, idk how is called in English

 

I got another couple of breakers on the roof, only 16A

 

On new houses there are almost three though, one for the kitchen 16A, 16A for everything else and 10A for lights

Edited February 21, 2019 by Guest

[Curufinwe_wins]

8 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

right and the first petrol engine was the pinical of efficiency right from the get go

And wireless charging offers no where near the benefits that ICEs provided.

 

They are by requirement, slower, less efficient, more complex, and less robust than wired transmission. There is literally nothing you or anyone else can do or study to prevent every one of those statements from staying true.

 

I simply dont believe that the marginal convenience improvement justifies undoing decades of efficiency gains as a default behavior.

 

Cell phones are a good example of the few devices that make some degree of sense to wirelessly charge. They are low power (so the efficiency loss is not as big of a deal), they (in peoples normal use cases) can placed in a specific location for a long amount of time to be charged. They are already using high degrees of complexity and keeping that complexity safe.

[Curufinwe_wins]

6 hours ago, Lukyp said:

In Italy is pretty much the same, but the breakers are separated by 10A (lights, 1.5mm) and 16A (everything else, 2.5mm)

 

In my house which is old for example I got two, for the two lines I mentioned, and the other ones are for earth faults, idk how is called in English

 

I got another couple of breakers on the roof, only 16A

 

On new houses there are almost three though, one for the kitchen 16A, 16A for everything else and 10A for lights

It's called going to ground in english.

 

Anyways. In the US, in a new house, it would be very uncommon to have fewer than 10 breakers. The house I currently live in has 28.

 

Going to the mains is a master 200A

 

Most are 15 amp, but every large appliance (stove, fridge, microwave, garage door opener etc) has it's own breaker, as does every room (often no more than three sets of outlets to the same breaker, so some rooms might have 2 or three breakers).

[Syntaxvgm]

when you try to make any kinda of unifying standard, you just end up with yet another standard. 

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

[Ithanul]

On 2/19/2019 at 6:00 PM, indrora said:

One of the safety things that we in the US are more and more commonly seeing (and something that to this day saves lives and eliminates those nasty shocks that Linus so hates) are RCD devices. They've been part of the US National Electric Code for some time now and are super cool, and Technology Connections has a wonderful video on how they work over here:

 

Wait, there folks that do not know about those?

My parents 30+ year old single wide trailer has a few of those. 

 

[dalekphalm]

15 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Also we have 32A because we like to be able to plug in more than one thing at once, whilst a TV plus a couple of other things wouldn't be a problem,, it certainly wouldn't be hard to overload a 16A breaker, i probably have enough stuff running in my bedroom right now to blow the upstairs circuit on a 16 A beaker. If not i'm pretty close and i'm pretty sure the stuff in the other bedroom would add upto more than 16A.

What in god's name do you have hooked up in your room that uses more than 3500 Watts? Us North Americans have 15A @ 120V = 1800W, and the only time you're ever gonna trip a breaker is if you happen to run say, an AC Unit and a Vacuum on the same circuit.

 

I don't know if the UK still does this, but the entire reason why you guys put Fuses into the sockets was due to having one giant circuit running through the entire house - which is not optimal at all.

 

In North America, typically every room gets it's own 15A 1800W circuit. Then, major appliances like Stove, Clothes Dryer, Furnace, etc, are all on their own circuits too. And some even offload lighting onto separate circuits.

 

13 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Gods changing the fusing in the breaker every time you change what's plugged into a specific socket would suck. Hows thats superior?

I'm confused about this. Why would you need to change the fusing in the breaker every time you change what's plugged into a specific socket? In North America, sockets are on a specific circuit (You might have a half dozen dual sockets on one circuit. Maybe a dozen if the contractor was being cheap). Each circuit is 15A, therefore the fuse (it would actually be a circuit breaker for each circuit in a modern home) is 15A.

 

You don't change the fuse (or breaker) rating ever. It's always 15A for a standard circuit.

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

What in god's name do you have hooked up in your room that uses more than 3500 Watts? Us North Americans have 15A @ 120V = 1800W, and the only time you're ever gonna trip a breaker is if you happen to run say, an AC Unit and a Vacuum on the same circuit.

 

I don't know if the UK still does this, but the entire reason why you guys put Fuses into the sockets was due to having one giant circuit running through the entire house - which is not optimal at all.

 

In North America, typically every room gets it's own 15A 1800W circuit. Then, major appliances like Stove, Clothes Dryer, Furnace, etc, are all on their own circuits too. And some even offload lighting onto separate circuits.

 

I'm confused about this. Why would you need to change the fusing in the breaker every time you change what's plugged into a specific socket? In North America, sockets are on a specific circuit (You might have a half dozen dual sockets on one circuit. Maybe a dozen if the contractor was being cheap). Each circuit is 15A, therefore the fuse (it would actually be a circuit breaker for each circuit in a modern home) is 15A.

 

You don't change the fuse (or breaker) rating ever. It's always 15A for a standard circuit.

 

 

I'm going to respond to @Stefan Payne at the same time here so pardon if some of the stuff i say is a little indirect or seemingly irrelevant.

 

1. Yes i have practical electrical training. it's so long ago now that i wouldn't try and use it without doing a fair bit of reading up on current standards as things have changed since i was at college, (2002-2003), and i haven't had much cause to use it. I also did an economics course, (it was an academic engineering course but at the time they where required to pack all sorts of mostly irrelevant crap onto it), which was why i raised the taxes point, it's not just about VAT but how the entire economy of two countries changes the operating expenses of resellers within that country. It's incredibly complex and properly accounting for it requires more information and analysis than is really practical here.I've also been doing some supplementary reading whilst replying.

 

2. I keep raising the point about fusing because in the UK it's a legal requirement that every device now be supplied with an appropriately sized fuse. You cannot use a one size fits all fuse. RCD's, (and i believe soon AFCI's), are mandatory too so where not just relying on the fuse. And the reason again is the fire hazard factor of using a fuse that does not conform to the capability of the devices internal wiring if a fault develops inside your device. The fuses chosen have to be selected such that in general, (there's allways ways for things to go wrong, and i've never tried to deny that, the idea is to limit the range of possibilities as much as possible, hence why RCD's and AFCI's are coming in on top), any overcurrent current capable of causing a fire hazard in the device will be greater than the fuse rating.

 

3. It's not one giant circuit for the whole house. Exactly how many there are depends on house size, but one for the kitchen, one for the rest of the downstairs and one for upstairs is normal for sockets. Very high draw devices like showers and cookers will get their own circuit and typically a fused outlet. Off the top of my head in this house we have 8 sockets on the downstairs ring main and 7 on the upstairs. Though this house is old enough, (ok ancient), that i 'd hesitate to use it as a guideline.

 

4.I know it seems like i go on about the fusing a fair bit but fusing and grounding are my two main bugbears anytime i look at foreign plugs. Technically there are other factors in play but everything i was taught about electrical safety back in college emphasised having proper grounding and fusing for everything, (and strongly suggested RCD's, but this was long enough ago they weren't common anywhere, and regs there seem to be similar between Uk and europe ATM so i didn't feel the need to mention them as it's a wash these days). So like anyone who took such courses in the UK i have a real bee in my bonnet about it. Ring circuits aren't used in major commercial and industrial applications generally in the UK but the rules on grounding and fusing are just as severe there as in households.

 

It all comes down once again to the belt and bracers approach. We pile multiple layers of redundancy into our electrical safety, and the grounding and fusing requirements, (not to mention things like socket standards and plug design standards), are one of the clearest indications of that in household use. To anyone trained under the UK system foreign plugs tend to set off every mental alarm bell we have.

[mariushm]

In UK, they used ring style circuits in their houses right after the war, due to copper and aluminum shortages. Fewer cables in the walls, cheaper construction and all that.

 

It was cheaper to put fuses in each plug and have 32A circuits.

 

It's also in part why keying was important, it mattered to have the fuse on the live wire, and not on neutral ...

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

1. Yes i have practical electrical training. it's so long ago now that i wouldn't try and use it without doing a fair bit of reading up on current standards as things have changed since i was at college, (2002-2003), and i haven't had much cause to use it.

And you are missing a couple of things when comparing the German (or rather European in General) system with the British System.

As @mariushm said, you use a ringbus and a 32A Breaker.

We use a Star system with each point individiual protected. That means that we have much more breakers in the box than you. The 12 in a normal 3 Room Flat was no joke, that's the truth. Especially since you usually have like 4 or 5 breakers for the Kitchen alone.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

2. I keep raising the point about fusing because in the UK it's a legal requirement that every device now be supplied with an appropriately sized fuse.

Its not a requirement here, to my knowledge.

What is a requirement is that the breaker is chosen so that it protects the cable that it is connected to.

 

And that is the thing you are missing and ignoring. YOU do not have that requirement. Thus without the fuse in the Plug, your outlet would not be protected to the max load of the connector and you will cause a fire.

For us its not needed, it is protected even without the fuse in the plug because we protect the circuit with the right value in the beginning.

 

And with the things you know, its more likely that the breaker trips than the fuse blows over here.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

You cannot use a one size fits all fuse.

We don't.

And you don't seem to willing or able to look at how other systems work and claim that your system is superior just because you know it, when its not.

FOr example if you drill a hole in the wall and hit the cable, you break the ringcicuit and half the current that circuit is capable of.

So if you then load the other half of that ring with 2 or 3 outlets to its maximum, you start a fire, your system is unsafe!

That doesn't happen here as the circuit is broken and no current can flow, the devices connected to the outlets, just do not work!

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

RCD's, (and i believe soon AFCI's), are mandatory too so where not just relying on the fuse.

That's a stupid remark...

RCDs are totally different things and should protect for different things as well.

 

That's like claiming "oh we don't need no over current protection, we have undervoltage protection, that's more than enough". No its not, different protections help against different problems.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

And the reason again is the fire hazard factor of using a fuse that does not conform to the capability of the devices internal wiring if a fault develops inside your device.

And how likely is that?!
Also, as I told you many times, you can also have some fusable traces on a PCB, windings or whatnot. 

But it seems like you are trusting too much in Fuses and believe that yours is better because a fuse might be there.

That is a dangerous assesment...

But as said, Electronics usually have Fuses.

Pure Mechanical devices (like a Desk fan) might not have an obvious fuse but for example the water cooker you claim doesn't have a fuse is fused. 

As said, the Delongi thing that I've posted about a couple of times has some fuses as well - thermal fuses. As its more likely that it overheats...

 

And the "draws more current than it should but not short" is also not a very likely scenario. Some of the devices you named usually fail open.

 

And in terms of the desk fan, you also have a switch, wich also could be fusable as well.

As if something goes horribly wrong, the device is done for anyway. So you can also use destructive protection.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

The fuses chosen have to be selected such that in general,

The fuses in the British plug have to be selected because the breaker before that is not adequate to protet the circuit because you use 32A Breakers.

 

The Fuse is not needed in European circuits because we protect our cables with up to 16A for normal outlets.

 

2 Different problems with different solutions.

Again, you brits NEED THE FUSE!

It is also mandatory to have a breaker or fuses if you go for more than 16A (ie 32A) to a 16A Circuit.

 

So if you have a 32A CEE plug and adopt that to 16A, you have to fuse that in some way - same as the Brits do.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

3. It's not one giant circuit for the whole house. Exactly how many there are depends on house size, but one for the kitchen, one for the rest of the downstairs and one for upstairs is normal for sockets. Very high draw devices like showers and cookers will get their own circuit and typically a fused outlet. Off the top of my head in this house we have 8 sockets on the downstairs ring main and 7 on the upstairs. Though this house is old enough, (ok ancient), that i 'd hesitate to use it as a guideline.

See, that's the difference between your claim of the superiority of the British System and my claim that its bullshit.

Because it is. As both are not comparable. And you also said a couple of times that you _NEED_ the Fuse in the Plug because your circuit is rated for more than the Plug is. Ours is not.

 

As stated earlier, we usually have 4-5 breakers for the Kitchen:
3 for the hob, mostly combined with the oven - if that is seperate, it tends to be fused seperately as well (even though its mostly just about 1kW).

1 for the Dish Washer.

1 for general stuff

1 for light

And Washing machine, Cloth dryer and other stuff gets its own breaker each.

 

And that's just the kitchen.

Every room here in Germany has its own breaker or in some cases even 2-3, depending on what you do maybe more (IT stuff for example can be seperately as well)

 

 

So we just do not need the Fuse in the Plug because its a completely different system.

32A Fuses in the Breakerbox are rare. Some houses even have 32A Input fuses.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

4.I know it seems like i go on about the fusing a fair bit but fusing and grounding are my two main bugbears anytime i look at foreign plugs.

Because you have no idea about the circuit behind that. Sorry, but you don't seem to understand the differences between the UK Bullshit and how the rest do that.

And that you assume that everyone has to use a Ring system like you brits do - when we have a star based system.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Technically there are other factors in play

...wich you totally ignore and just claim, without much knowledge about the other systems, that it is superior.

You can't just look at the plug and assume that the circuit behind that is the same - wich is not.

 

And as I stated earlier, if you don't use at least 4mm² or rather 6mm² leads to your outlets and someone drills into the cable, YOUR system is unsafe and a fire hazard, not ours.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

but everything i was taught about electrical safety back in college emphasised having proper grounding and fusing for everything,

Yes and you depend on the fuse in the plug.

We depend on the fuse in the breaker.

That is the difference. And you claim that your system is superior, when its just different.

And if you're honest, you'd admit that our system is safer and less fire hazard than yours because we use up to 16A for 1,5mm². That is what the Cable is rated for. You seem to lay a ring and still use 1,5mm² (maybe 2,5mm²) but fuse it with 32A in the box. 

Yeah, talk about safety...

 

If one half of that happen to break, your cable can be overloaded and catch fire because 32A is just too much for 1,5mm² (or even 2,5mm²).

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

We pile multiple layers of redundancy into our electrical safety, and the grounding and fusing requirements,

No, you don't.

Your stuff is just completely different than ours. You put 32A Breakers in the Box, we only use 16A or less for normal circuits. 

So YOU need the Fuse in the Plug because of that - as would we if we did it the same. But we don't. We use 16A Breakers at most for 16A Outlets. So we can omit the Fuses because why have 2 fuses of the same value in the same circuit?! That just makes no sense.

 

ANd here is your problem: YOu don't realize that you want/need fuses if you have different max. Amperages, wich you have. We do not. So that is why you have the Fuse in the Plug while everyone else has not.

 

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

To anyone trained under the UK system foreign plugs tend to set off every mental alarm bell we have.

Must be british Patriotism, not because your stuff is better.

[AlwaysFSX]

I'm all for having the same plug and switching to 230v, just so long as it's not the European plug. That design is a piece of garbage.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

And you are missing a couple of things when comparing the German (or rather European in General) system with the British System.

As @mariushm said, you use a ringbus and a 32A Breaker.

We use a Star system with each point individiual protected. That means that we have much more breakers in the box than you. The 12 in a normal 3 Room Flat was no joke, that's the truth. Especially since you usually have like 4 or 5 breakers for the Kitchen alone.

 

Its not a requirement here, to my knowledge.

What is a requirement is that the breaker is chosen so that it protects the cable that it is connected to.

 

And that is the thing you are missing and ignoring. YOU do not have that requirement. Thus without the fuse in the Plug, your outlet would not be protected to the max load of the connector and you will cause a fire.

For us its not needed, it is protected even without the fuse in the plug because we protect the circuit with the right value in the beginning.

 

And with the things you know, its more likely that the breaker trips than the fuse blows over here.

 

We don't.

And you don't seem to willing or able to look at how other systems work and claim that your system is superior just because you know it, when its not.

FOr example if you drill a hole in the wall and hit the cable, you break the ringcicuit and half the current that circuit is capable of.

So if you then load the other half of that ring with 2 or 3 outlets to its maximum, you start a fire, your system is unsafe!

That doesn't happen here as the circuit is broken and no current can flow, the devices connected to the outlets, just do not work!

 

That's a stupid remark...

RCDs are totally different things and should protect for different things as well.

 

That's like claiming "oh we don't need no over current protection, we have undervoltage protection, that's more than enough". No its not, different protections help against different problems.

 

And how likely is that?!
Also, as I told you many times, you can also have some fusable traces on a PCB, windings or whatnot. 

But it seems like you are trusting too much in Fuses and believe that yours is better because a fuse might be there.

That is a dangerous assesment...

But as said, Electronics usually have Fuses.

Pure Mechanical devices (like a Desk fan) might not have an obvious fuse but for example the water cooker you claim doesn't have a fuse is fused. 

As said, the Delongi thing that I've posted about a couple of times has some fuses as well - thermal fuses. As its more likely that it overheats...

 

And the "draws more current than it should but not short" is also not a very likely scenario. Some of the devices you named usually fail open.

 

And in terms of the desk fan, you also have a switch, wich also could be fusable as well.

As if something goes horribly wrong, the device is done for anyway. So you can also use destructive protection.

 

The fuses in the British plug have to be selected because the breaker before that is not adequate to protet the circuit because you use 32A Breakers.

 

The Fuse is not needed in European circuits because we protect our cables with up to 16A for normal outlets.

 

2 Different problems with different solutions.

Again, you brits NEED THE FUSE!

It is also mandatory to have a breaker or fuses if you go for more than 16A (ie 32A) to a 16A Circuit.

 

So if you have a 32A CEE plug and adopt that to 16A, you have to fuse that in some way - same as the Brits do.

 

See, that's the difference between your claim of the superiority of the British System and my claim that its bullshit.

Because it is. As both are not comparable. And you also said a couple of times that you _NEED_ the Fuse in the Plug because your circuit is rated for more than the Plug is. Ours is not.

 

As stated earlier, we usually have 4-5 breakers for the Kitchen:
3 for the hob, mostly combined with the oven - if that is seperate, it tends to be fused seperately as well (even though its mostly just about 1kW).

1 for the Dish Washer.

1 for general stuff

1 for light

And Washing machine, Cloth dryer and other stuff gets its own breaker each.

 

And that's just the kitchen.

Every room here in Germany has its own breaker or in some cases even 2-3, depending on what you do maybe more (IT stuff for example can be seperately as well)

 

 

So we just do not need the Fuse in the Plug because its a completely different system.

32A Fuses in the Breakerbox are rare. Some houses even have 32A Input fuses.

 

Because you have no idea about the circuit behind that. Sorry, but you don't seem to understand the differences between the UK Bullshit and how the rest do that.

And that you assume that everyone has to use a Ring system like you brits do - when we have a star based system.

 

...wich you totally ignore and just claim, without much knowledge about the other systems, that it is superior.

You can't just look at the plug and assume that the circuit behind that is the same - wich is not.

 

And as I stated earlier, if you don't use at least 4mm² or rather 6mm² leads to your outlets and someone drills into the cable, YOUR system is unsafe and a fire hazard, not ours.

 

Yes and you depend on the fuse in the plug.

We depend on the fuse in the breaker.

That is the difference. And you claim that your system is superior, when its just different.

And if you're honest, you'd admit that our system is safer and less fire hazard than yours because we use up to 16A for 1,5mm². That is what the Cable is rated for. You seem to lay a ring and still use 1,5mm² (maybe 2,5mm²) but fuse it with 32A in the box. 

Yeah, talk about safety...

 

If one half of that happen to break, your cable can be overloaded and catch fire because 32A is just too much for 1,5mm² (or even 2,5mm²).

 

No, you don't.

Your stuff is just completely different than ours. You put 32A Breakers in the Box, we only use 16A or less for normal circuits. 

So YOU need the Fuse in the Plug because of that - as would we if we did it the same. But we don't. We use 16A Breakers at most for 16A Outlets. So we can omit the Fuses because why have 2 fuses of the same value in the same circuit?! That just makes no sense.

 

ANd here is your problem: YOu don't realize that you want/need fuses if you have different max. Amperages, wich you have. We do not. So that is why you have the Fuse in the Plug while everyone else has not.

 

Must be british Patriotism, not because your stuff is better.

You seem to be under the impression that circuit breakers in the UK are over rated for the cabling and design loads. I think you will find it is not that sloppy at all, in fact most countries have reasonable Electrical standards that ensure cabling can ling can handle a continuous current load upto the breaker rating.

 

11 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

What in god's name do you have hooked up in your room that uses more than 3500 Watts? Us North Americans have 15A @ 120V = 1800W, and the only time you're ever gonna trip a breaker is if you happen to run say, an AC Unit and a Vacuum on the same circuit.

 

 

240V @ 10 amps is awesome, it means the only devices in the house that require a dedicated circuit is the oven, hot water and induction hob if you have one.  2400W makes for very capable appliances. And for multiple appliances safely on the same circuits.

[Mihle]

On 2/21/2019 at 9:21 AM, mr moose said:

RCD's  are compulsory for all new builds in Australia at the start of every circuit since 2000.    Once again it appears our standards lead the way.

They are required here too, don't know from when. But it's only required on the main breaker I think? But the price difference between those and normal breakers is so low that there is no point not having it on every circuit anyway. So most do.

It only makes it so an fault only cuts one circuit rather than everything anyway. It's just as safe.

[Mihle]

7 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

I'm all for having the same plug and switching to 230v, just so long as it's not the European plug. That design is a piece of garbage.

No, it's not. Don't know what wrong information you have been fed. US plug is one of the worst btw.

[Mihle]

16 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

What in god's name do you have hooked up in your room that uses more than 3500 Watts? Us North Americans have 15A @ 120V = 1800W, and the only time you're ever gonna trip a breaker is if you happen to run say, an AC Unit and a Vacuum on the same circuit.

circuit.

You know, things that is sold in different countries is different depending on how the electrical system is.

In Europe there exist 2000W electrical heaters or vacuum cleaners (less common, but they do exist) that's something that could not exist in US with a normal plug/socket, but do exist here, because they can exist with a normal plug/socket.

 

All US things usually limited to 1500W, because that's what can be drawn trough a plug/socket over long time. (At lest things like a heaters that is supposed to be on for a long time). But they don't here in US. 

 

If I remember correctly, my water kettle is 2000w, could not exist in US, but it does here.

 

Edit: changes some words because they where wrong translation from my native language

[CharminUltraStrong]

Switching to a unified plug would be beyond stupid. I never travel outside the states so I never have to use an adapter and a unified plug would basically force me to invest in multiple adapters for US to unified and Unified to US. So, someone suggested legislation to force us to change all of our outlets and voltage? That's not how legislation works, you think the government is gonna hold me at gunpoint while I change my outlets? They're gonna have to pay for my outlets and pay someone to install it for me. I'm not putting new shit in and paying for it because of legislation. 

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, Mihle said:

You know, things that is sold in different countries is different depending on how the electrical system is.

In Europe there exist 2000W electrical heaters or vacuum cleaners (less common, but they do exist) that's something that could not exist in US with a normal plug/socket, but do exist here, because they can exist with a normal plug/socket.

 

All US things usually limited to 1500W, because that's what can be drawn trough a plug/socket over long time. (At lest things like a heaters that is supposed to be on for a long time). But they don't here in US. 

 

If I remember correctly, my water kettle is 2000w, could not exist in US, but it does here.

 

Edit: changes some words because they where wrong translation from my native language

In Europe, one single phase outlet can pump out 3680W of power (230V * 16A or 3840W where 240V is used). Plugs (called "Schuko") are also designed in such a way that plug contacts don't make contact with the outlet until the gap between plug and socket is closed entirely, meaning you can't ever touch live plug pins if you plug it in only half way and stick a metal object in between (because it's physically impossible). The slim plugs (called: "Europlug") without grounding also have only tips of the contacts exposed where rest of the actual pin is insulated to prevent that as well during partial insertion. Both are bidirectional or reversible (like USB Type C) which makes them much more versatile and easy to use compared to British or American ones because they can be plugged only one way (like micro USB).

 

American type is really very insecure type of plugs from technical perspective, but they are a bit nicer looking on chargers for phones and stuff because they can be very small, because they sack all the safety concerns.

[Drak3]

On 2/20/2019 at 10:32 PM, Stefan Payne said:

I think your problem is that you have no understanding of how the German Installation works and assumes that because the Brits do it, so do the Germans and think that they are the same. They are not.

Sounds similar to my house's old fuse setup vs its new breaker setup.

 

Our house used to run a straight set of 4 30A fuses. The circuits were: bedrooms+bathroom+adjoining hall, living room+dining room+1 outlet in my room, Kitchen+mudroom+back room, garage.

 

Then our 240v stove and dryer shared the fuses for the garage and kitchen. Heater had its own 30A fuse built in.

 

 

Whereas now, 4 20A breakers replaced the fuses. The 240V now has its own 40A breaker. Plus, we added a 20A circuit dedicated to my PCs in my room, 3 20A curcuits to run AC+pool+lights in a shed, and a fuse for our outside fridge.

[dalekphalm]

26 minutes ago, Mihle said:

You know, things that is sold in different countries is different depending on how the electrical system is.

In Europe there exist 2000W electrical heaters or vacuum cleaners (less common, but they do exist) that's something that could not exist in US with a normal plug/socket, but do exist here, because they can exist with a normal plug/socket.

A 2000W space heater sounds good in theory, but is not a great way to heat a space (especially one large enough to actually need a 2000W space heater). A 2000W vacuum would be interesting. Industrial strength, pretty much.

 

A typical Upright canister vacuum (A "normal" vacuum here) uses maybe 1400W.

26 minutes ago, Mihle said:

All US things usually limited to 1500W, because that's what can be drawn trough a plug/socket over long time. (At lest things like a heaters that is supposed to be on for a long time). But they don't here in US. 

Correct - while the circuit can technically handle up to 1875W maximum (125V at 15A on the upper end), you're not supposed to have a constant draw above 1500W. But that's only for stuff you'd plug into a regular socket. Large appliances regularly go over that limit, because they're on their own 220V circuit.

26 minutes ago, Mihle said:

If I remember correctly, my water kettle is 2000w, could not exist in US, but it does here.

What is a "water kettle"? Are you talking about a hot water heater for your "hot" water pipes? If so, in the US (And Canada, because I'm not American), those are typically on their own circuits on a higher voltage - a standard hot water tank can be upwards of 5500W.

 

If you mean an actual electric kettle? Jesus 2000W is insane. Typical ones here are 1200W and that's more than enough.

 

Besides that, the guy I was quoting was talking about his bedroom.

 

[Stefan Payne]

25 minutes ago, CharminUltraStrong said:

Switching to a unified plug would be beyond stupid.

True as you need different plugs for different applications.

 

Here in Germany, there are 3 types of Plugs common:
Schuko for normal operation

Perilex in Kitchen (more or less a 3 phase version of Schuko)

and the CEE for industrial appliances. Its more common than Perilex, also 3 Phase. And different versions for different max. Currents.

 

But we're talking mostly about the normal, mostly used residental Plug.

And here a world wide Standardization would make sense.

 

Just ask for example @jonnyGURU

If the UK would use the Schuko or french plug, they don't need no special UK SKU and just could ship the "Euro Version" for them.

Especially for smaller Companys its a pain to go into certain markets because they have to bundle their product with a certain plug and if they don't have enough or too much, they can't sell them to different markets where they might be needed.

25 minutes ago, CharminUltraStrong said:

So, someone suggested legislation to force us to change all of our outlets and voltage?

Yes, why not?!
110VAC is shit anyway, For various reasons.

It would also make Components cheaper as they don't need to design the primary side for higher currents.

Just look at 230VAC PSU, what tiny coils they use in the PFC stage. 

A 300W 110VAC PSU has a bigger coil than a 500W 230VAC Only unit.

 

25 minutes ago, CharminUltraStrong said:

That's not how legislation works, you think the government is gonna hold me at gunpoint while I change my outlets?

No, they just force every new installation and products with some transition era.

If you don't want to transition, you need an adaptor.

 

Oh and it seems that the Brits somewhat moved from 110VAC to the highest known voltage yet -> 240VAC.

And yes, it is 240VAC.

While the "230VAC" are harmonzied, not really 230VAC.

Here in my House I have 220VAC - like we always had in Germany. Its just now badge engineered and called 230VAC even if its not.

 

25 minutes ago, CharminUltraStrong said:

They're gonna have to pay for my outlets and pay someone to install it for me. I'm not putting new shit in and paying for it because of legislation. 

First: replacing the outlets is rather cheap. Like 2 Bucks per Outlet cheap. The good stuff is between 3-5€ or so.

You really whine about like 100-250 bucks for the whole hose, if you do it yourself?!
RLY???

 

That's peanuts for a home owner...

Renovating/painting your house might be more expensive than replacing the outlets, if you are a certified electrician.