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colonel_mortis

Some older GPS devices may stop working in April

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Source: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/12/current_gps_epoch_ends/

 

Quote

Older satnavs and such devices won't be able to use America's Global Positioning System properly after April 6 unless they've been suitably updated or designed to handle a looming epoch rollover.

GPS signals from satellites include a timestamp, needed in part to calculate one's location, that stores the week number using ten binary bits. That means the week number can have 210 or 1,024 integer values, counting from zero to 1,023 in this case. Every 1,024 weeks, or roughly every 20 years, the counter rolls over from 1,023 to zero.

The first Saturday in April will mark the end of the 1,024th week, after which the counter will spill over from 1,023 to zero. The last time the week number overflowed like this was in 1999, nearly two decades on from the first epoch in January 1980.

More recent GPS devices (The Register says ~2010+) that follow the specification will be fine, since the specification requires graceful handling of the overflow. However, some older or less well engineered devices might not support it correctly, which would result in them calculating the current time incorrectly as being in 1999 rather than 2019. This in turn may result in them breaking or calculating the location incorrectly, because they will calculate the position of the satellites incorrectly.

 

GPS is used for more than just location - it's effectively just a very accurate broadcast clock, which is used by some datacenters (among other things) to get the precise time. If these devices aren't overflow-tolerant, it could cause a range of issues for services hosted in those datacenters, which often rely on the assumption that time monotonically increases.

 

This is unlikely to have any widespread or severe effects, and the vast majority of devices, including all safety-critical ones, should be fine. There will inevitably be some issues caused by rushed software by some vendors though, which could break a few less important things.


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Well heck. My already extremely out of date, European map only, functionally unusable, VW in-car GPS radio from 2003 will likely be affected by this. 


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So it’s like Y2K for gps. Wait so what does the year have to do with location? Is it programmed to compensate for satelitte drift or earths spin? Otherwise I can see 24H as being needed and month dates but year?


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Just keeping this here as a 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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

So it’s like Y2K for gps. Wait so what does the year have to do with location? Is it programmed to compensate for satelitte drift or earths spin? Otherwise I can see 24H as being needed and month dates but year?

For calculating location relative to the satellites, all that matters is the difference between the times, so it won't matter. However, you also need to know the locations of the satellites to be able to get a fix, and they are moving fast. To get the positions of the satellites, they broadcast a precisely known position at some point, and a model for how the satellite is moving, to allow the receiver to calculate the current position. If the GPS receiver thinks that the current year is 1999, it might try to extrapolate the model back 20 years, or it might just break.

There's also a bunch of services that use GPS for precisely calibrating clocks, which could be thrown off by this.


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7 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

So it’s like Y2K for gps. Wait so what does the year have to do with location? Is it programmed to compensate for satelitte drift or earths spin? Otherwise I can see 24H as being needed and month dates but year?

GPS usually use a clock to handle timedilation between the satalites, not to mention to know where satalites are at. 

 

Broken clock might cuck some things. 

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1 minute ago, colonel_mortis said:

For calculating location relative to the satellites, all that matters is the difference between the times, so it won't matter. However, you also need to know the locations of the satellites to be able to get a fix, and they are moving fast. To get the positions of the satellites, they broadcast a precisely known position at some point, and a model for how the satellite is moving, to allow the receiver to calculate the current position. If the GPS receiver thinks that the current year is 1999, it might try to extrapolate the model back 20 years, or it might just break.

There's also a bunch of services that use GPS for precisely calibrating clocks, which could be thrown off by this.

Interesting, but is the older years models saved? As it would be given one for 2019 and it thinks it wants 1999. So would it just search forever or use the 2019 one? I guess we won’t know until we figure it out. But your saying you should sell all your older GPSs before they become worthless


ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D🅾🅼🅸🅽🅰🆃🅾r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted · Original PosterOP
4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Interesting, but is the older years models saved? As it would be given one for 2019 and it thinks it wants 1999. So would it just search forever or use the 2019 one? I guess we won’t know until we figure it out. But your saying you should sell all your older GPSs before they become worthless

My assumption is that they will keep using the most up to date model (which is regularly updated and transmitted from the satellites and from the internet/terrestrial radio), but extrapolate it to the wrong place (1999 rather than 2019). It will then still be able to get a GPS fix, but it will be in completely the wrong place.

 

I'm not saying you should sell your old GPS devices, and the chances are that most were designed with this in mind (and those that weren't are probably too old to be worth anything). However, if they do break in April, this might be why.


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biggest issue I see with this is older cars. As mentioned by a couple people already. i doubt or at least hope anything serious would be affected by this


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17 hours ago, rcmaehl said:

Well heck. My already extremely out of date, European map only, functionally unusable, VW in-car GPS radio from 2003 will likely be affected by this. 

Prepare to be navigated into a river, lake or sea :P

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6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Prepare to be navigated into a river, lake or sea :P

 


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8 hours ago, williamcll said:

Speaking of GPS not working, some 5G mobile bands comes in conflict with GPS signals(e.g. 3.5Ghz)

Got more info on that? Generally they keep things separate enough to not interfere with each other. It is possible to be in a similar range but not overlap.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR_frequency_bands

 

In a quick scan of the above I don't see any obvious overlap.


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On 2/14/2019 at 1:04 PM, colonel_mortis said:

However, some older or less well engineered devices might not support it correctly,

you mean and/or, do you?

 

But why do we not learn about the mistakes of the past, why do we still not update that shit so that it works, why do we have to still endure the shit from something that was a good idea back in the 70s, maybe early 80s??

That's kinda infuriating...

 

Why did nobody think about GPS 2.0 that fixed this shit?

Why only use 10 bits for that?? Why not allow more than 10bits for "future use"?? 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

you mean and/or, do you?

 

But why do we not learn about the mistakes of the past, why do we still not update that shit so that it works, why do we have to still endure the shit from something that was a good idea back in the 70s, maybe early 80s??

That's kinda infuriating...

 

Why did nobody think about GPS 2.0 that fixed this shit?

Why only use 10 bits for that?? Why not allow more than 10bits for "future use"?? 

*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*

According to the article, there is

Quote

GPS.gov also notes that the new CNAV and MNAV message formats will use a 13-bit week number to solve the epoch migraine right up until the planet becomes uninhabitable via climate change or we all blow ourselves up.

so I guess this is why it mostly affects older devices.

My guess would be that when they designed it, there was no expectation that devices would use GPS for synchronising time (after all, it was designed purely for military use, and was only later opened to the public). Still, yes, it really feels like someone should have thought about and avoided it.


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23 minutes ago, colonel_mortis said:

According to the article, there is

so I guess this is why it mostly affects older devices.

My guess would be that when they designed it, there was no expectation that devices would use GPS for synchronising time (after all, it was designed purely for military use, and was only later opened to the public). Still, yes, it really feels like someone should have thought about and avoided it.

Everyone thought we'd have space cars and mars colonization by 2019. Surely the overflow won't be an issue as everyone will be using GPS (Galaxy Positioning System) by then


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