King of Bottlenecks! Intel 9th Gen.

[GoldenLag]

12 minutes ago, maartendc said:

Well look, is DDR3 even that much of a bottleneck on lets say an i5 9600?

 

i mean it does bottleneck an 7700k........ so, yes it does matter. it just sort of stops mattering the moment you satisfy your bandwidth 

[maartendc]

12 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

 

i mean it does bottleneck an 7700k........ so, yes it does matter. it just sort of stops mattering the moment you satisfy your bandwidth 

As per usual the difference is only 5-10% though, between 2133Mhz Ram and 3200 Mhz DDR4 ram. (not sure about the difference between DDR3 and DDR4, probably bigger, but not THAT big, DDR3 comes in similar speeds too).

 

Given that the price of buying 16GB of DDR4 3200Mhz ram is like $130-$150 for a decent brand, you can also use that money to just buy a better CPU, if you already own 16GB of decent speed DDR3.

 

Sticking with the low-mid range example on DDR3: that extra $150 can easily afford you an upgrade from an i3 8100 to an i5 8600. Surely, the 6-core, higher clocked CPU with DDR3 will outperform the 4-core, lower clocked CPU with DDR4?

 

People are always like "OMG YOU NEED F4ST RAM BRO rekt!!" But they forget that, even with Ryzen, we are talking about a 5-10+% improvement AT BEST. If you use the extra RAM money ($50 lets say) to upgrade from a 2600 to a 2600X, you also get that extra 10+% performance, and in ALL applications across the board.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, maartendc said:

Given that the price of buying 16GB of DDR4 3200Mhz ram is like $130-$150 for a decent brand, you can also use that money to just buy a better CPU, if you already own 16GB of decent speed DDR3.

its 120$ for a good looking kit of 3200mhz. a good looking kit of 3000mhz is 100$

 

cheapest kits you get are 84$ and 2666mhz. 

 

also the board is locked, so that really doesnt help the Ramspeed situation. 

 

4 minutes ago, maartendc said:

Sticking with the low-mid range example: that extra $150 can easily afford you an upgrade from an i3 8100 to an i5 8600. Surely, the 6-core, higher clocked CPU with DDR3 will outperform the 4-core, lower clocked CPU with DDR4?

i mean the usecase is there. but you are buying a crappy motherboard (that noone should buy for this kinda usecase) that is memmory starved that suffers with low minimum framerates. we see impacts of memmory starvation on a 7700k at 2133mhz and the DDR3 will run at a maximum of 1886mhz. 

 

and for anyone who are on a budget. you have 3000 mhz 16GB kits for 90$ and a 160$ r5 2600. 

9 minutes ago, maartendc said:

People are always like "OMG YOU NEED F4ST RAM BRO rekt!!" But they forget that, even with Ryzen, we are talking about a 5-10+% improvement AT BEST. If you use the extra RAM money ($50 lets say) to upgrade from a 2600 to a 2600X, you also get that extra 10+% performance, and in ALL applications across the board.

its 10% in average. you also have 99% which is what actually suffers hard. people arent super hyped on people buying fast ram, but noone suggest buying stock Ram because Ram is so cheap these days that from crappy to good ram seperates 6$. and people who do end up buying slower Ram or re-using, there is Ramoverclocking to salvage or make the best of the situation. 

11 minutes ago, maartendc said:

Sticking with the low-mid range example: that extra $150 can easily afford you an upgrade from an i3 8100 to an i5 8600.

on the low end. and this would strictly be a situation on the low end you have different concerns rather than upgrading CPU. GPU is king. i mean also current pricing isnt much in favor of this board since Intel is deprioritizing low end and desktop supply. 

 

 

so while yes people who want to re-use their old DDR3 have an option. not even for them it is all that great. 

[imreloadin]

19 hours ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

uhhh... I thought DDR3 wasn't compatible with the 9900k memory controller.

That's just shit Intel wants you to believe...

[maartendc]

 

22 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

its 120$ for a good looking kit of 3200mhz. a good looking kit of 3000mhz is 100$

 

cheapest kits you get are 84$ and 2666mhz. 

 

I mean sure, but that is still $120 more than keeping my existing DDR3

 

22 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

i mean the usecase is there. but you are buying a crappy motherboard (that noone should buy for this kinda usecase) that is memmory starved that suffers with low minimum framerates. we see impacts of memmory starvation on a 7700k at 2133mhz and the DDR3 will run at a maximum of 1886mhz.

Yeah, it is not a top of the range board, but at the low end, who cares? As long as I can put a CPU in it, and it works, that is all a lot of people need. On the low end people dont care about chipset, nm process, features, etc. etc.

 

Look, I am not saying this is the BEST IDEA, or even suggesting anyone do this over just upgrading to DDR4 (especially not with a high end CPU or if you can afford better).  But I can definitely think of use cases where this product makes sense, on the low-end, if you already have DDR3.

 

But just a couple posts up, people are ridiculing this product as being totally useless, which I don't think it is. I think it is actually pretty cool that people can upgrade their CPU and keep their existing RAM.

22 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

so while yes people who want to re-use their old DDR3 have an option. not even for them it is all that great. 

[GoldenLag]

4 minutes ago, maartendc said:

I mean sure, but that is still $120 more than keeping my existing DDR3

i mean. a personal note is just to save you money. you will have to do a plattform upgrade at some point. 

[Cedimedi]

The powerdelivery & MosFETs propably won't be even able to run a 9900k at TDP, lul

[Dabombinable]

Just remember that the chipset is pretty much the lowest end version sold mainstream by Intel, and kind of lacks a lot compared to other chipsets, eg:

• DMI Gen 2.0 instead of 3.0 (far lower bandwidth between CPU and PCH)
• Only 6x PCIe lanes, all gen 2.0
• Only 4x SATA ports
• Only 2 channels, and 1x stick of RAM per channel
• Only 4x USB gen 3.1 ports
• No ability to use PCIe storage (eg. m.2 NVME)

I think only the vomit box OEM will be buying these motherboards, because even next to B360 based boards its terrible:
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3268063/components-processors/intel-motherboard-z370-vs-h370-vs-b360-vs-h310-8th-gen-cpu.html

[mariushm]

Yeah, the board may accept a 9900k in its socket but if it works it's not gonna have overclocking and it's probably gonna be limited by the bios to stay within some ridiculous power budget...

What would you expect from a 3 phase VRM without any heatsink, and with a 4pin CPU connector (that in theory can do around 2 x 12v x 9A = 200 watts)

 

 

Sigh... I think Intel's basically FORCING manufacturers like Gigabyte to use such chipsets and release products, by threathing to cut them off other chipsets and resources like advertising budgets.

If I were Gigabyte I would be ashamed to produce such boards in 2019.

[Dabombinable]

7 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Yeah, the board may accept a 9900k in its socket but if it works it's not gonna have overclocking and it's probably gonna be limited by the bios to stay within some ridiculous power budget...

What would you expect from a 3 phase VRM without any heatsink, and with a 4pin CPU connector (that in theory can do around 2 x 12v x 9A = 200 watts)

 

 

Sigh... I think Intel's basically FORCING manufacturers like Gigabyte to use such chipsets and release products, by threathing to cut them off other chipsets and resources like advertising budgets.

If I were Gigabyte I would be ashamed to produce such boards in 2019.

I'd expect the VRM to run far hotter than it did on my H87M Pro, when paired with the "84W TDP" i5 4440 (consumes 54W of power under a heavy load). and that was with a 3 phase heatsinked VRM.

[Maticks]

Though i shake my head, do remember another big company Microsoft have DDR3 Memory in their 8th Gen Processors still for all Surface Book 2's and all Surface Pro 6's.

I really thought when the 7th gen came out we would see DDR4 but nope and then when the 8th Gen came out but still nope.

 

So DDR3 is used mainstream by a few companies not just this motherboard.

[GoldenLag]

7 minutes ago, Maticks said:

Though i shake my head, do remember another big company Microsoft have DDR3 Memory in their 8th Gen Processors still for all Surface Book 2's and all Surface Pro 6's.

I really thought when the 7th gen came out we would see DDR4 but nope and then when the 8th Gen came out but still nope.

 

So DDR3 is used mainstream by a few companies not just this motherboard.

The difference is that this is desktop and not Laptop. Laptops had a reason why they did so. Desktop doesnt.

[mariushm]

I think Microsoft used DDR3 for two reasons:

1. it was cheaper than DDR4

2. they probably started the layout of circuit board with the intention of using a previous gen cpu that only supported ddr3 and during development they must have figured the competition would have way faster hardware by the time they'd finish everything..

 

Pretty much anyone using ddr3 these days would do it for cost reasons (cheaper chips and easier circuit board design, less sensitive compared to ddr4)

[mr moose]

So it's a dregg low end board, I fail to see the problem. does it only work with a 9900K or will any 8th gen Intel cpu work?  Because I can see many mid to low end builds using existing ddr3 and mid range CPU and throwing the rest of the money at a an already expensive GPU.

 

The only thing it's missing is a shit name like "gank drone l33t" 

[leadeater]

44 minutes ago, Maticks said:

Though i shake my head, do remember another big company Microsoft have DDR3 Memory in their 8th Gen Processors still for all Surface Book 2's and all Surface Pro 6's.

I really thought when the 7th gen came out we would see DDR4 but nope and then when the 8th Gen came out but still nope.

 

So DDR3 is used mainstream by a few companies not just this motherboard.

 

35 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

The difference is that this is desktop and not Laptop. Laptops had a reason why they did so. Desktop doesnt.

 

Bandwidth wise DDR3 and DDR4 isn't much different at all at same rated frequencies. If you opt for more reasonable priced DDR4 you aren't going to be much faster than good cheap DDR3 which is easily obtainable. So unless you are running a task heavily ram bandwidth dependent it's actually unlikely to notice any difference at all, outside of synthetic benchmarks.

 

 

 

 

https://www.techspot.com/news/62129-ddr3-vs-ddr4-raw-bandwidth-numbers.html

 

Unless you're buying 3200+ memory DDR3 vs DDR4 isn't going to matter unless you also cheap out on the DDR3, and if you're buying 3200+ why are you buying an H chipset motherboard and locked CPU (or worse force locked due to chipset) and shelling out for expensive DDR4 ram.

 

Edit:

Minor interesting note, I am running DDR3-2400 ram in my Ivy-E system.

 

[GoldenLag]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Unless you're buying 3200+ memory DDR3 vs DDR4 isn't going to matter unless you also cheap out on the DDR3, and if you're buying 3200+ why are you buying an H chipset motherboard and locked CPU (or worse force locked due to chipset) and shelling out for expensive DDR4 ram.

doesnt LPDDR3 have a slight power advantage over DDR4 aswell. not at the same frequency, but when it runs at lower frequency. 

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

doesnt LPDDR3 have a slight power advantage over DDR4 aswell. not at the same frequency, but when it runs at lower frequency. 

Don't actually know, only thing I can add would be some Google fu.

 

Quote

On 30 December 2013, Samsung announced that it had developed the first 20 nm-class 8 gibibit (1 GiB) LPDDR4 capable of transmitting data at 3,200 Mbit/s per pin, thus providing 50 percent higher performance than the fastest LPDDR3 and consuming around 40 percent less energy at 1.1 volts.

 

Don't even know how much that matters really though, if your device is thermal or power throttling due to ram you dun forked up.

[GoldenLag]

Just now, leadeater said:

Don't even know how much that matters really though, if you're device is thermal or power throttling due to ram you dun forked up.

some lower power Laptops might preffer using DDR3 to lower power consumption a tiny bit. 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

some lower power Laptops might preffer using DDR3 to lower power consumption a tiny bit. 

Could always go with unobtainium

 

Quote

Samsung Semiconductor proposed an LPDDR4 variant it called LPDDR4X.[20]:11 LPDDR4X is identical to LPDDR4 except additional power is saved by reducing the I/O voltage (Vddq) to 0.6 V from 1.1 V. On 9 January 2017, SK Hynix announced 8 and 6 GiB LPDDR4X packages.

Never heard of it, never seen it, bet it costs way the hell too much lol.

[GoldenLag]

Just now, leadeater said:

Could always go with unobtainium

 

Never heard of it, never seen it, bet it costs way the hell too much lol.

damn, didnt think LPDDR4X was a thing people though of. 

 

but its not like Ram uses a lot to begin with. the only usecase i see is in phones. 

[porina]

For those of you with floatplane, you might want to check out the videos...

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, porina said:

For those of you with floatplane, you might want to check out the videos...

#nospoilers?

[Strator]

On 1/21/2019 at 7:07 PM, Crunchy Dragon said:

Way back in the day, yeah.

 

This was also with sockets that had CPUs that would support both DDR2 and DDR3.

Even further back in the day Asrock made a socket 775 board (4CoreDual-SATA2) that supported DDR and DDR2 as well as AGP and PCI-e. Not all at the same time obviously but it was great for using up old hardware laying around for a general use computer. It also supported CPUs from P4 all the way to the Q6600. I have one, it was in my sons computer with 4GB of DDR2, a Q6600 and an ATI AIW x800, great little XP\Win7 machine. 

 

Back on topic if the price is right I'll be picking one of these up, I am sitting on 32GB of DDR3 (from an old FX build lol) that I don't have a use for, pair some of that with a used i3 or i5 and a cheap SSD and you've got a great little computer upgrade for an aging system. Throw in an RX 470 for <100$ and that's quite a nice little gaming box. 

 

Last note: Many programs\processors or more sensitive to latency than bandwidth. Per a typical bandwidth, DDR3 and DDR4 are pretty similar. Not that it matters, the people who are going to buy this will never put it in any workloads that they will notice a difference in anyway. 

[DildorTheDecent]

On 1/23/2019 at 11:34 AM, leadeater said:

Could always go with unobtainium

 

Never heard of it, never seen it, bet it costs way the hell too much lol.

LPDDR is in "mobile computers"

 

So smartphones and the like.

 

[vorticalbox]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:25 PM, ignaloidas said:

inb4 linus pairs this with RTX Titan and 9900K. This would be the one scenario where you are actually limited by your motherboard.

I think they should do this just see just how much it actually throttles.