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Deus Voltage

Jensen Huang (Nvidia CEO) Responds to AMD, " it's underwhelming-- We'll crush it"

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11 hours ago, Chett_Manly said:

Its not that hes calling the 2080 performance lousy, hes calling a 7nm card with 16gb of HBM2, a higher power draw, and no transistors spent on RTX or Tensor Cores, having 2080 performance lousy. Which it is!

 

 

Which is fine, except it has those extra transistors spent elsewhere. For example, it scales past half precision all the way down to int4 and also does half rate fp64. There is also a massive disparity in die size that is most likely not accounted for by even the 12->7nm jump. In fact you could easily argue the same for his own RTX 2080. It has a slightly more advanced process, uses considerably more die space, cost more, consumes more power and is still only at parity with a 1080ti with a 2.5 year development time over it.


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15 minutes ago, Carclis said:

Which is fine, except it has those extra transistors spent elsewhere. For example, it scales past half precision all the way down to int4 and also does half rate fp64. There is also a massive disparity in die size that is most likely not accounted for by even the 12->7nm jump. In fact you could easily argue the same for his own RTX 2080. It has a slightly more advanced process, uses considerably more die space, cost more, consumes more power and is still only at parity with a 1080ti with a 2.5 year development time over it.

If it was on parity with a 1080 and didn't have TC or RT and didn't have an entire world of optimizations in front of it, then yes you would have a point. But it doesn't,  it performs as it should (on par with one model up from the previous series) had plenty of room for optimization in software and adaptions and has tensor cores and RT cores.  Regardless of whether people think RT and AI is value yet or not is moot, they are there.


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5 hours ago, mr moose said:

If it was on parity with a 1080 and didn't have TC or RT and didn't have an entire world of optimizations in front of it, then yes you would have a point. But it doesn't,  it performs as it should (on par with one model up from the previous series) had plenty of room for optimization in software and adaptions and has tensor cores and RT cores.  Regardless of whether people think RT and AI is value yet or not is moot, they are there.

Well I think the argument would have to revolve around price since you can have the fastest part in the world but it's not worth a damn if it costs a fortune ie Titan. That's why I compared the 2080 to the 1080ti. They are similar products with basically identical performance, however the $100 price premium makes the 2080 disappointing. It brings no new performance for the given price point and costs more because of the added features. Hence why I think someone who bought a 1080ti for $700 and wanted to purchase an upgrade for the same price again would consider the performance of the 2080 lousy.

 

Now I'm not saying that Radeon VII will be a good product by any means, but if it's on par with a 2080 and it actually sells for $100 less whilst cutting what a large portion of the market doesn't care about from the card it could be a more compelling option. And I only say more compelling because none of the new cards are impressive from either company. Add to that the fact that it appears to be an incredibly capable compute card with 16GB of VRAM and I believe the highest bandwidth on a single GPU to date at what is a fairly attainable price and you have new levels of performance in areas that have actual demand. Whilst you're right that RT and AI is there on these cards and probably to stay, I'd argue they're only there because Jensen wants them to be and the end result is lousy performance. So Jensen standing there and remarking that he brought new features that nobody wanted which make the 0% performance gain acceptable at a $100 price premium don't really resonate with me. Especially if he is going to bring down the hammer on a competing product that performs the same at a lower price point and has other key features that the RTX line don't support.


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On 1/10/2019 at 4:45 PM, ZacoAttaco said:

I don't know much about Jensen to be honest, but this thread and the above snip makes him come across as very unlikeable.

Ya, he's always been a condescending narcissistic elitist douche.  When Ryzen first launched his exact words, in a condescending way, were, "Welcome back AMD."


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9 hours ago, Carclis said:

In fact you could easily argue the same for his own RTX 2080. It has a slightly more advanced process, uses considerably more die space, cost more, consumes more power and is still only at parity with a 1080ti with a 2.5 year development time over it.

Yes the 2080 is not a great product. Though at least you have some features that might be of use one day.

 

This also doesn't make the Radeon VII any better. If anything the Radeon VII is a 1080ti competitor launched at the RTX inflated price point. It is not a good product either.

 

Both of them fail to deliver a performance increase per dollar over the previous generation. Which is quite the FU to consumers.

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10 hours ago, Carclis said:

Well I think the argument would have to revolve around price since you can have the fastest part in the world but it's not worth a damn if it costs a fortune ie Titan. That's why I compared the 2080 to the 1080ti. They are similar products with basically identical performance, however the $100 price premium makes the 2080 disappointing. It brings no new performance for the given price point and costs more because of the added features. Hence why I think someone who bought a 1080ti for $700 and wanted to purchase an upgrade for the same price again would consider the performance of the 2080 lousy.

Your still ignoring the RT an Tensor cores.  They may not mean anything to you now but that doesn't mean they don't exist or have a price tag.

 

10 hours ago, Carclis said:

Now I'm not saying that Radeon VII will be a good product by any means, but if it's on par with a 2080 and it actually sells for $100 less whilst cutting what a large portion of the market doesn't care about from the card it could be a more compelling option. And I only say more compelling because none of the new cards are impressive from either company. Add to that the fact that it appears to be an incredibly capable compute card with 16GB of VRAM and I believe the highest bandwidth on a single GPU to date at what is a fairly attainable price and you have new levels of performance in areas that have actual demand. Whilst you're right that RT and AI is there on these cards and probably to stay, I'd argue they're only there because Jensen wants them to be and the end result is lousy performance. So Jensen standing there and remarking that he brought new features that nobody wanted which make the 0% performance gain acceptable at a $100 price premium don't really resonate with me. Especially if he is going to bring down the hammer on a competing product that performs the same at a lower price point and has other key features that the RTX line don't support.

 

I don't think any of that makes any tangible difference.  Again your preference for the value of RT and AI now doesn't change their existence.  Now if in 3 years AI and RT is not working and nvidia are still charging a premium for it you'd have an argument, but right now it's just the early adopters tax at best and at worst we lack sufficient evidence to claim it is a failure. 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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6 hours ago, Chett_Manly said:

Yes the 2080 is not a great product. Though at least you have some features that might be of use one day.

 

This also doesn't make the Radeon VII any better. If anything the Radeon VII is a 1080ti competitor launched at the RTX inflated price point. It is not a good product either.

 

Both of them fail to deliver a performance increase per dollar over the previous generation. Which is quite the FU to consumers.

Well, 300 bucks of the VII's price tag is HBM2 costs.  I heard the card costs them 750 to build, but they're selling it for 50 bucks less to "compete" at the 2080's price point.  The 2080 Ti is a card that's overpriced for 2 reasons.  1) Nvidia having no competition at that price point, so it's more of an asking price that loyal fans will pay.  2) They originally acted like it was replacing the Titan as the high tier gaming card and that they weren't releasing a card named the titan.  Then they released a Titan which pissed off a lot of people, iirc.  I could be wrong about two.

What annoys me more than the pricing of either of them is when a company asks hundreds more because they slapped a water block on it.  Galax's 1 2080 Ti costs like 1800 USD because they put a fucking water block on it.  Gigabyte is asking like 8-900 bucks for a mobo because they put a fucking water block on it.  <.<  


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3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

hey originally acted like it was replacing the Titan as the high tier gaming card and that they weren't releasing a card named the titan.  Then they released a Titan which pissed off a lot of people, iirc.  I could be wrong about two.
 

That was just consumer speculation, I always claimed it was true from a marketing angle, which still is true if you consider they aren't aiming the titan at gamers (for a change) and they never actually said they weren't releasing it, that was just forum talk.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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11 hours ago, Chett_Manly said:

Yes the 2080 is not a great product. Though at least you have some features that might be of use one day.

 

This also doesn't make the Radeon VII any better. If anything the Radeon VII is a 1080ti competitor launched at the RTX inflated price point. It is not a good product either.

 

Both of them fail to deliver a performance increase per dollar over the previous generation. Which is quite the FU to consumers.

Well Radeon VII has features that are available today vs those that the RTX line which have yet to be proven. To be fair though I don't think the Radeon VII was ever supposed to be aimed at or available to consumers, which is why Linus is quite excited to see how well it performs for professional use. I suspect it became a feasible option because of how uncompetitive RTX is. I think the only losers here are gamers.

 

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Your still ignoring the RT an Tensor cores.  They may not mean anything to you now but that doesn't mean they don't exist or have a price tag.

Well I mentioned that in my previous comment. So I think it's fair to assume that if the cards launched without the new features we would have seen the usual pricing structure which means the RTX 2080 jumped $200-300 for those features alone (depending on whose pricing you wish to believe). Given that Jensen's statement reads as:

Quote

"And if we turn on DLSS we’ll crush it. And if we turn on ray tracing we’ll crush it"

You have yourself a very big "if" next to it actually being a valid claim to make, a $200-300 one in fact. Thing is Jensen likes to tell gamers and developers what they want but that doesn't really translate into the real world as you'll probably see if you look at stock levels of 2070's or 2080's or even look at how many titles actually support their new technologies. Quite a significant amount of titles that Nvidia claimed to be adopting them are still missing either feature despite already being full releases (also ignoring how poor the existing implementations are). I mean we're told "it just works", but does it? Or are people just not interested?

DLSS and RTX may have a price tag but that doesn't stop the RTX 2080 from being just as lousy, if not more lousy than the Radeon VII.


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19 minutes ago, Carclis said:

Well Radeon VII has features that are available today vs those that the RTX line which have yet to be proven. To be fair though I don't think the Radeon VII was ever supposed to be aimed at or available to consumers, which is why Linus is quite excited to see how well it performs for professional use. I suspect it became a feasible option because of how uncompetitive RTX is. I think the only losers here are gamers.

 

Well I mentioned that in my previous comment. So I think it's fair to assume that if the cards launched without the new features we would have seen the usual pricing structure which means the RTX 2080 jumped $200-300 for those features alone (depending on whose pricing you wish to believe). Given that Jensen's statement reads as:

You have yourself a very big "if" next to it actually being a valid claim to make, a $200-300 one in fact. Thing is Jensen likes to tell gamers and developers what they want but that doesn't really translate into the real world as you'll probably see if you look at stock levels of 2070's or 2080's or even look at how many titles actually support their new technologies. Quite a significant amount of titles that Nvidia claimed to be adopting them are still missing either feature despite already being full releases (also ignoring how poor the existing implementations are). I mean we're told "it just works", but does it? Or are people just not interested?

DLSS and RTX may have a price tag but that doesn't stop the RTX 2080 from being just as lousy, if not more lousy than the Radeon VII.

Jensen is just spouting usual CEO rhetoric,  "we'll crush it" just means he thinks his product is exceptionally better than theirs.  not too sure I've ever seen a CEO claim otherwise.

 

it really just comes back to comparing the cards for what they are, Jensen's comments don't make one better value than the other,  only the end user can determine that.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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6 hours ago, mr moose said:

Your still ignoring the RT an Tensor cores.  They may not mean anything to you now but that doesn't mean they don't exist or have a price tag.

And you’re ignoring the extra 8GB of VRAM and additional compute capabilities. They both have a niche.

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The thing is that the 2080 has extras that have yet to see its capabilities realized.

 

So if and when the RT and Tensor cores can be fully utilized on the 2080, that's where the interesting stuff begins.

 

Trouble is that the 2080 is still very new and those features have yet to be realized. It's likely that by the time RT and Tensor's capabilities become realized, a new breed of GPUs may be already on their way.


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3 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

The thing is that the 2080 has extras that have yet to see its capabilities realized.

 

So if and when the RT and Tensor cores can be fully utilized on the 2080, that's where the interesting stuff begins.

 

Trouble is that the 2080 is still very new and those features have yet to be realized. It's likely that by the time RT and Tensor's capabilities become realized, a new breed of GPUs may be already on their way.

By time the RT and Tensor capabilities are realised I expect there to be a second improved iteration of cards with those capabilities from NVIDIA and an AMD implementation. Buying first-gen of a new technology is something I generally give a miss, it’s just never worth it.

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1 minute ago, schwellmo92 said:

By time the RT and Tensor capabilities are realised I expect there to be a second improved iteration of cards with those capabilities from NVIDIA and an AMD implementation. Buying first-gen of a new technology is something I generally give a miss, it’s just never worth it.

It's an early adopter thing, pretty much.

 

They have a starting point now but it's definitely going to take a few years before it becomes feasible at a reasonable price point.


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On 1/13/2019 at 4:41 PM, schwellmo92 said:

And you’re ignoring the extra 8GB of VRAM and additional compute capabilities. They both have a niche.

When did I ignore those?


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

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