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UPDATED* AMD announces the Radeon VII - but it's $699 | Nvidia calls it "Lousy"

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4 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Rome, Ryzen 3rd Gen then Navi. 

Oh, I totally forgot about Rome.

and thus I disagree with you.

 

It makes more sense to launch Ryzen last and navi in the middle. Because of the need for the 7nm CPU Dies. If they release Ryzen and Rome close together there will be a shortage.

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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6 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

I mean, if Radeon VII dropped for $649 it would be a bit of an easier sell than the $699 they're aiming for, because you can find stock RTX 2080s for that cash.

Questionable, given the current market. At the high-end, I'm not sure AMD is really going for the same market as Nvidia. It'd be the best buy at 549 or 599, but that isn't happening because of the costs to AMD.

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1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

Oh, I totally forgot about Rome.

and thus I disagree with you.

 

It makes more sense to launch Ryzen last and navi in the middle. Because of the need for the 7nm CPU Dies. If they release Ryzen and Rome close together there will be a shortage.

TSMC has fab space, so AMD can spin up as many dies as they need.

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Just now, Taf the Ghost said:

Questionable, given the current market. At the high-end, I'm not sure AMD is really going for the same market as Nvidia. It'd be the best buy at 549 or 599, but that isn't happening because of the costs to AMD.

At $599, no question about it, Radeon VII would be the best high end gaming card for the money.

I do wonder what AMD intends to aim this card at, because they sent mixed messages during CES. Is it their gaming and productivity king? Will they ever pressure Adobe in developing proper OpenCL support for their suite (on Windows)? Will they ever convince the consumer that HBM has key advantages over GDDR?

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1 minute ago, handymanshandle said:

At $599, no question about it, Radeon VII would be the best high end gaming card for the money.

I do wonder what AMD intends to aim this card at, because they sent mixed messages during CES. Is it their gaming and productivity king? Will they ever pressure Adobe in developing proper OpenCL support for their suite (on Windows)? Will they ever convince the consumer that HBM has key advantages over GDDR?

I'm not sure Adobe will build out proper support if you kidnapped their families and threatened them into it. (Somehow, it's been the same set of problems for well over a decade.)

 

HBM isn't about the Consumer space. The FPGA market figured out HBM was amazing and have simply been willing to pay for it. The price isn't coming down anytime soon. If the price was in the same ballpark at GDDR5, 5X or 6, AMD would have rolled out a RX Vega 48 at 299USD and ran the clocks much less aggressive. Beyond the actual issues with Vega (i.e. all of the Gaming Improvements never showed up), it was something of a lost product except at the performance level it's reached with 7nm.

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13 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

At $599, no question about it, Radeon VII would be the best high end gaming card for the money.

Yeah but you hear "from sources" that VEGA doesn't make any money because the manufacturing is so darn expensive.


As said, if something goes wrong after you put the Memory and  you crack the Interposer while marrying with the Organic package, you can throw away a perfectly fine GPU Die and 4 perfectly fine HBM Stacks. That's what makes it soo expensive..

But to make it worse: You need to solder that Chip on the Board as well. 

That's a nightmare...

And I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking about like 20% unsalvagable defects....

13 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

I do wonder what AMD intends to aim this card at, because they sent mixed messages during CES. Is it their gaming and productivity king?

Both.

Whoever wants it and is willing to pay for it...

You can sell the same products to a very diverse group of people with different usecase, that isn't really a problem if you do it right.

 

13 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Will they ever pressure Adobe in developing proper OpenCL support for their suite (on Windows)?

Probably not.

Because it was Adobe and the other of that kind that made OpenGL to shit

 

 

13 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Will they ever convince the consumer that HBM has key advantages over GDDR?

The advantages are bandwith and power consumption wich is awesome.

The Disadvantages are production cost on all sides...

 

I also kinda like HBM and wished it was better. But its not. THe only solution is to get rid of the Interposer or develop new kinds of packages...

 


Well, when I was starting with Computing, the PC-CPUs were packaged in Ceramic packages and the Die was on the bottom of the CHip. Today its on the top...

Something that is not said or known is that AMD was the first to put the Die on top - with the K6, wich had a heatspreader (a really shitty one) on top of the Die.

 

So they are the ones who do most of the innovation: Integrated Memory Controller, Multi Core CPUs, enhanced Multimedia Extensions (3DNOW!), fast serial interfaces between chipset or CPU and Chipset and most importantly: The AMD64 CPU Extension.

 

Or the first HBM Consumer card...

 

 

But that only works if the innovation is actually viable to produce. WIch is sadly not the case for HBM in Consumer stuff...

Its just too expensive. The Failure rate of the manufacturing process is too high, stuff like that that hinders HBM...

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14 hours ago, Madgemade said:

I'm betting on the FP64 being enabled. If it is then I will be buying this for my simulation programming. These are the numbers on GPU db. This is good news for AMD who haven't had a decent FP64 card since 2013. Better FP32 than the 2080 Ti as well. Better FP64 than all but Volta and Quadro 8000

 

In OpenCL work we already know from AMDs numbers that this card easily beats out the 2080 Ti.

AMD's benchmark number are in the footnote here. They show:

We can see on this site and here that a score of 50202 is the same or better than the 2080 Ti and is only beaten by Volta GPUs.

Looking good for compute!

 

Like i've said a bunch of times it's a compute card that just happens to be able to do graphics on the side.

 

7 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah but you hear "from sources" that VEGA doesn't make any money because the manufacturing is so darn expensive.


As said, if something goes wrong after you put the Memory and  you crack the Interposer while marrying with the Organic package, you can throw away a perfectly fine GPU Die and 4 perfectly fine HBM Stacks. That's what makes it soo expensive..

But to make it worse: You need to solder that Chip on the Board as well. 

That's a nightmare...

And I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking about like 20% unsalvagable defects....

Both.

Whoever wants it and is willing to pay for it...

You can sell the same products to a very diverse group of people with different usecase, that isn't really a problem if you do it right.

 

Probably not.

Because it was Adobe and the other of that kind that made OpenGL to shit

 

 

The advantages are bandwith and power consumption wich is awesome.

The Disadvantages are production cost on all sides...

 

I also kinda like HBM and wished it was better. But its not. THe only solution is to get rid of the Interposer or develop new kinds of packages...

 


Well, when I was starting with Computing, the PC-CPUs were packaged in Ceramic packages and the Die was on the bottom of the CHip. Today its on the top...

Something that is not said or known is that AMD was the first to put the Die on top - with the K6, wich had a heatspreader (a really shitty one) on top of the Die.

 

So they are the ones who do most of the innovation: Integrated Memory Controller, Multi Core CPUs, enhanced Multimedia Extensions (3DNOW!), fast serial interfaces between chipset or CPU and Chipset and most importantly: The AMD64 CPU Extension.

 

Or the first HBM Consumer card...

 

 

But that only works if the innovation is actually viable to produce. WIch is sadly not the case for HBM in Consumer stuff...

Its just too expensive. The Failure rate of the manufacturing process is too high, stuff like that that hinders HBM...

 

Ehh HBM3 is supposed to offer a lot of cost per chip advantages and i believe intel is talking about using it on their upcoming 3D designs. I also wouldn't be surprised to see it on 4th gen epyc and maybe even ryzen. Though if they do that i have some suspicions about how they'll do it that will make wasted chips less of an issue.

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5 hours ago, laminutederire said:

Just like with good guys in dating, amd is dismissed when they act in the benefit of consumers, and then people complain they stop after a while and start to do what the company that everyone is buying from do.

I sometimes won't understand what people expect...

Haha, interesting comparison...

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On 1/13/2019 at 7:12 AM, Stefan Payne said:

Another Theory why they did release the Radeon 7:
Navi is very close, cheaper and can also be used for Compute.

 

But they had enough stock of Vega 20 that has to be sold off somehow, especially since its rather expensive...

 

 

So it might be possible that we could see a double launch around summer:
Ryzen 3000 combined with NAVI. 

Navi in 2019 is not gonna replace Vega 20. It will co-exist. It will Vega 20 on the high end, and Navi on the midrange. We will not get high end Navi until 2020.

 

"We're really excited to start on the high-end....you'll see the announcements over the course of the year as we round out our Radeon roadmap." - AMD CTO Mike Papermaster

https://www.thestreet.com/video/amd-cto-14830482

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12 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Navi in 2019 is not gonna replace Vega 20. It will co-exist. It will Vega 20 on the high end, and Navi on the midrange. We will not get high end Navi until 2020.

 

"We're really excited to start on the high-end....you'll see the announcements over the course of the year as we round out our Radeon roadmap." - AMD CTO Mike Papermaster

https://www.thestreet.com/video/amd-cto-14830482

I think this sums some of it up nicely.


 

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New claim at link below that FP64 performance will be cut after all. If so, that kills it for me as a compute card, but will still suit less demanding tasks that don't need FP64.

https://techgage.com/news/radeon-vii-caps-fp64-performance/

 

On 1/13/2019 at 2:10 AM, handymanshandle said:

I mean, if Radeon VII dropped for $649 it would be a bit of an easier sell than the $699 they're aiming for, because you can find stock RTX 2080s for that cash.

If you're getting a card at this level, is $50 really going to make or break it? The optimal choice for a given user will probably depend on other factors more than pricing.

 

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1 hour ago, porina said:

New claim at link below that FP64 performance will be cut after all. If so, that kills it for me as a compute card, but will still suit less demanding tasks that don't need FP64.

https://techgage.com/news/radeon-vii-caps-fp64-performance/

Yep, I might still buy it as an upgrade but if that's true it's useless for FP64 work when a 7970 has 1 TFlop and can be bought for almost nothing.

I'm still hoping that it is enabled anyway someho. A lot of people have got hyped up about it and lots of videos and articles mention it having great double precision now. AMD are going to take a hit for messing up on this, why wern't they clear in the first place, fake news and all that.

 

Not much of a "creators" card if FP64 is gimped, FP32 is no better than the 2080 and only 1000 more than Vega 64.

Pretty much a dead flop for compute in fact. Almost possible to buy 2x Vega 56 for the same price which would get you a lot more Compute for the money and better FPS in crossfire titles!

 

Now GPUdb also shows it as having gimped FP64.

I guess this means we are also going to see a Radeon Pro version of this with the FP64 enabled. Otherwise they have lost a load of sales for people who want double precision and are not a large company that can buy bulk MI60.

 

So yeah this card is Fury all over again, mediocre performance, noncompetitive price, fewer features and it's not even going to get bought up for compute because it doesn't perform and is uncut by much cheaper Vega.

 

If price gets pumped up at all this card will be forgotten in the same way as Fury. Only if it is priced below 2080 can it have success, but it costs more if you compare $699 RRP with what RTX 2080 actually is going for.

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6 hours ago, Humbug said:

Navi in 2019 is not gonna replace Vega 20. It will co-exist. It will Vega 20 on the high end, and Navi on the midrange. We will not get high end Navi until 2020.

Lets wait and see what happens and how good Navi will be compared to Vega 20...

The thing you've quoted doesn't mean that Navi will be worse either...

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

New claim at link below that FP64 performance will be cut after all. If so, that kills it for me as a compute card, but will still suit less demanding tasks that don't need FP64.

https://techgage.com/news/radeon-vii-caps-fp64-performance/

 

If you're getting a card at this level, is $50 really going to make or break it? The optimal choice for a given user will probably depend on other factors more than pricing.

 

Wait for users to have it and test it...

 

I'd not trust anyone right now...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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I can understand pulling back from 1:2 (and the news reports about full Double Precision are annoying), but 1:16, if true, seems like a bad idea from AMD. 1:4 would carve out a market for the Card as a cost-effective compute for a number of buyers. Enough to ensure sell-through of the product without causing problems with the Instinct line.

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On 1/13/2019 at 3:28 AM, Stefan Payne said:

But that only works if the innovation is actually viable to produce. WIch is sadly not the case for HBM in Consumer stuff...

Its just too expensive. The Failure rate of the manufacturing process is too high, stuff like that that hinders HBM...

this just means we need better "pick and place machines" as the interposer isn't going away anytime soon, and hbm is a good place to test the waters before we go full steam ahead.

the Fp64 thing was a let down, as Taf said, they should have at least set it to 1/8 or 1/4

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Buildzoid had some good points on why Radeon 7 exists.

 

- they already have this core so why not sell those not capable of becoming Instrinct cards to end up in Radeon 7

- the space needed to place all the VRAM chips on the PCB

- bandwidth that can't be delivered even with GDDR6 (realistically it doesn't need 1TB/s but it's a nice number and more can't hurt)

 

And in the end, it's not a bad card if it goes against RTX 2080. And still has absurd compute capabilities not found even on Titan cards iirc.

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Since then...I see plenty of 2080's under $699.  I like this price war. 

 

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56 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

And in the end, it's not a bad card if it goes against RTX 2080. And still has absurd compute capabilities not found even on Titan cards iirc.

Not bad, but not really good either if the price really is $699. And that compute stuff was fake news/mistaken. Been said already further up. Would have been good if true.

34 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

Since then...I see plenty of 2080's under $699.  I like this price war.

Yeah, AMD knows that Nvidia is going to do that and make a little less profit than if AMD had launched nothing.

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On 1/10/2019 at 4:34 AM, Blademaster91 said:

1: Didn't he have a video claiming that Vega II and Navi would be at CES?

 

2: He lied himself with the clickbait "leaked" Ryzen 3000 specs also.

1:

Everything AdoredTV found and presented about AMD recently (except Navi since no info on that yet) lines up almost exactly with what AMD presented at CES. He talked about this logo:

image.png.38e3c34fb53b3611e938b97cfd2d4613.png

and thought V stood for Vega and II stood for two as a second generation vega card was being leaked; hence Vega II. Seems like a reasonable conclusion to me. No one thought it was supposed to be read as the roman numeral VII (for radeon 7). Predicting a second generation Vega card was going to be released was correct.

 

I'm not surprised his unveiling date was wrong (his focus is technical info from hardware leaks), but so far he's hit the nail on the head with technical expectations prior to launch and unveils.

 

2:

No clickbait, an analysis of leaks. You know, the whole objective of his channel? So far he's on the money. How did he lie?

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On 1/14/2019 at 7:53 PM, Stefan Payne said:

Lets wait and see what happens and how good Navi will be compared to Vega 20...

The thing you've quoted doesn't mean that Navi will be worse either...

Navi will not be worse. It will be a superior architecture.

But if they are launching a mid-range part it will be slower. i.e. if the Navi they launch this year has like 30 CUs then no way is it going to beat the raw performance of a Vega 20. But it will be a better architecture with more performance per clock, better efficiencies  etc.

 

Now if AMD does decide to launch high end Navi this year with a lot of CUs then yes it will beat Vega 20 on raw performance too. But all the speculation and leaks are saying that Navi in 2019 is a midrange part. And now we have AMD's CTO saying that they started from the high end vega 20 and will fill out the rest throughout the year.

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1 hour ago, Humbug said:

Navi will not be worse. It will be a superior architecture.

But if they are launching a mid-range part it will be slower. i.e. if the Navi they launch this year has like 30 CUs then no way is it going to beat the raw performance of a Vega 20. But it will be a better architecture with more performance per clock, better efficiencies  etc.

 

Now if AMD does decide to launch high end Navi this year with a lot of CUs then yes it will beat Vega 20 on raw performance too. But all the speculation and leaks are saying that Navi in 2018 is a midrange part. And now we have AMD's CTO saying that they started from the high end vega 20 and will fill out the rest throughout the year.

2020 is the earliest we'd see a replacement for the Radeon 7. "Big Navi" might be 2021, but I think it'd be ill advised for AMD to go that long.

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8 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

2020 is the earliest we'd see a replacement for the Radeon 7. "Big Navi" might be 2021, but I think it'd be ill advised for AMD to go that long.

2020 for sure I think for Big Navi. Since mid-range Navi is launching in 2019 I see no reason they would need until 2021 to prep it's big brother. 7nm will also be mature enough by 2020 for making big dies more cheaply.

 

I expect AMD graphics launches from now on to be a bit more frequent. They had actually refocused around discrete graphics since Raja's time and now the company as a whole has been making profits again and increasing R&D.

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:10 PM, handymanshandle said:

because you can find stock RTX 2080s for that cash.

True but those are the bottom of the barrel coolers. Event the EVGA Black cards are just fine nothing stellar if all you want to do is stick your card in your system and go, but I reckon the enthusiasts who buy those end up overclocking or wanting to. They would probably go for cards with a better cooler. Whereas RVII may (waiting for review) have a significantly better cooling solution at the same price point. Just my thought on the price being "the same" technically.

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10 minutes ago, Humbug said:

2020 for sure I think for Big Navi. Since mid-range Navi is launching in 2019 I see no reason they would need until 2021 to prep it's big brother. 7nm will also be mature enough by 2020 for making big dies more cheaply.

 

I expect AMD graphics launches from now on to be a bit more frequent. They had actually refocused around discrete graphics since Raja's time and now the company as a whole has been making profits again and increasing R&D.

If Nvidia goes to Samsung EUV 7nm+ for their first 7nm consumer part, it's going to be late 2020 before the next generation from Nvidia. (The Volta replacement should be out in Summer; not sure who's 7nm node it'll be on.) AMD would be highly advised to have Arcturus out by then.

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57 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

If Nvidia goes to Samsung EUV 7nm+ for their first 7nm consumer part, it's going to be late 2020 before the next generation from Nvidia. (The Volta replacement should be out in Summer; not sure who's 7nm node it'll be on.) AMD would be highly advised to have Arcturus out by then.

LOL If AMD doesn't Nvidia will by then just launch the Volta replacement high end at like $1500 maintaining the same price/perf as the previous gen and calling it a new generation.

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