UPDATED* AMD announces the Radeon VII - but it's $699 | Nvidia calls it "Lousy"

[Taf the Ghost]

6 hours ago, porina said:

Ok, that blows the MI50 out of consideration for a FP/$ metric. The Titan V hangs in there, with Radeon 7 about 20% better bang for buck on up front cost. A concern for the Titan V is its ram bandwidth may be more of a limiting factor.

 

I also did a rough estimate based on an i3-8100 and i7-7800X, CPU only, excludes other components required. They're still competitive in that sense, but of course would fall way behind once you do add necessary system parts. They're also competitive on bw/flop. Not enough info to do a good estimate on performance/W but it is probably on the lower end along with the 7, with the Titan V and MI50 in another league.

Main thing was the price for that amount of FP64. I mentioned Universities not just because they have researchers that can use the compute, but due to the fact that in most of the world, most professors can't swing 3k+ for FP64 card. What a lot of departments, and researchers/professors themselves, can swing is 700USD. Thus, not only would AMD sell out of the Radeon 7, they'd end up creating something of their own mini Crypto-like supply crunch. That would defeat the purpose of having a high-end gaming GPU available.

 

Though, as noted, this was actually just a misinformation problem. The 1:8 FP64 was actually pretty well chosen and there will still be a market for it, beyond just being a competent high-end gaming GPU.

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, YoloSwag said:

They could have fully enabled all features but that would mean they lose sales on their higher margin products. Compute cards don't have movements in units that are huge like in the gaming market but the price margins they have are. Releasing a card that can do well on both markets just spells trouble. For this reason they are making sure premium products stay premium. It's sad. But there you have it.

 

Actually server side stuff tends to shift in far higher volume than retail according to what's been stated in the past. 

[Taf the Ghost]

38 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Actually server side stuff tends to shift in far higher volume than retail according to what's been stated in the past. 

Per AMD, Vega has sold 10x what Fury ever did, but GPU Compute has also taken off in the last couple of years.

[CarlBar]

10 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Per AMD, Vega has sold 10x what Fury ever did, but GPU Compute has also taken off in the last couple of years.

 

Cheers for providing a specific example. I remembered that i'd heard that but i couldn't for the life of me remember a specific example. And yeah GPU compute has really shaken up the server market. I'm pretty sure that plus the extra financial stability offered are why Intel has gotten into the GPU market now.

[Taf the Ghost]

1 minute ago, CarlBar said:

 

Cheers for providing a specific example. I remembered that i'd heard that but i couldn't for the life of me remember a specific example. And yeah GPU compute has really shaken up the server market. I'm pretty sure that plus the extra financial stability offered are why Intel has gotten into the GPU market now.

Intel's goal is to be in every market. The problem is they can't seem to get beyond x86 and their great Fabs. We'll see how GPUs go... again.

 

I'm personally a little surprised Vega has sold as well as it has for AMD, but they have a space within the market that it fills. It'd even be a good dGPU for the Gaming market if it didn't run so hot and if HBM2 hadn't kept the price so high.

[RejZoR]

I wish I could get Radeon 7 just for a test drive. I wonder how same level HW works on tiny details (like stuttering and smoothness, not in raw framerate numbers way)...

[Hellion]

This thread is the perfect example of how blinded a large portion of tech "enthusiasts" are to brand recognition and fanboyism.

 

You can't be patting nvidia on the ass for "pushing tech forward" by introducing ray tracing to the market while shitting on AMD for trying to do exactly the same with HBM memory.

It's a massive contradiction...

 

It's also been made clear on this very forum as well as other outlets several times in the past that the current Vega architecture is designed around HBM2. You can't just roll that back and stick GDDRX chips on the PCB in it's place to "make it cheaper". That would require a complete redesign and 7nm Vega is just a die shrink.

 

The same goes for the price. It's priced the same as the competing nvidia product with double the physical memory and more bandwidth. How useful that is to an individual would depend on the use case which also holds true for ray tracing.

 

Everyone whined and bitched that nvidia had no competition for the RTX series. Now here it is and it's nothing but double standards and excuses.

 

If you want cheaper cards then stop buying a new one every generation despite the segment replacement costing significantly more. Both corporations will only continue to produce what they can sell so if you don't buy then the prices will fall. Very simple economics.

 

[Blademaster91]

3 hours ago, Hellion said:

This thread is the perfect example of how blinded a large portion of tech "enthusiasts" are to brand recognition and fanboyism.

You can't be patting nvidia on the ass for "pushing tech forward" by introducing ray tracing to the market while shitting on AMD for trying to do exactly the same with HBM memory.

It's a massive contradiction...

It's also been made clear on this very forum as well as other outlets several times in the past that the current Vega architecture is designed around HBM2. You can't just roll that back and stick GDDRX chips on the PCB in it's place to "make it cheaper". That would require a complete redesign and 7nm Vega is just a die shrink.

The same goes for the price. It's priced the same as the competing nvidia product with double the physical memory and more bandwidth. How useful that is to an individual would depend on the use case which also holds true for ray tracing.

Everyone whined and bitched that nvidia had no competition for the RTX series. Now here it is and it's nothing but double standards and excuses.

If you want cheaper cards then stop buying a new one every generation despite the segment replacement costing significantly more. Both corporations will only continue to produce what they can sell so if you don't buy then the prices will fall. Very simple economics.

There has been a lot of double standards excusing AMD for these cards as well, many were expecting a cheaper priced card yet its $699 and it's just fine. Of course there is some brand recognition when AMD hasn't been competing in the higher end market,It is good AMD has come up with a GPU that should compete, because without something in the high end Nvidia can charge whatever people are willing to pay.

I mean sure most people like to ride the claim that "raytracing is useless"  its really too early for the node size used which makes it expensive, but at least Nvidia is pushing tech that makes games look better.

And well AMD has been using HBM since the Fury X,and HBM is more expensive than GDDR5X or GDDR6 to use on a GPU, so it's a poor excuse that AMD couldn't have made a few tweaks and sold a cheaper GDDR6 card. AMD is marketing compute cards as cards for gaming, it will likely sell better to those needing a compute card than to gamers. Yeah everyone whined about the price of RTX cards, but its fine to have excuses for these cards? And I think both the RTX cards and this Radeon 7 are overpriced.

[Hellion]

On 1/18/2019 at 1:18 AM, Blademaster91 said:

There has been a lot of double standards excusing AMD for these cards as well, many were expecting a cheaper priced card yet its $699 and it's just fine. Of course there is some brand recognition when AMD hasn't been competing in the higher end market,It is good AMD has come up with a GPU that should compete, because without something in the high end Nvidia can charge whatever people are willing to pay.

I mean sure most people like to ride the claim that "raytracing is useless"  its really too early for the node size used which makes it expensive, but at least Nvidia is pushing tech that makes games look better.

And well AMD has been using HBM since the Fury X,and HBM is more expensive than GDDR5X or GDDR6 to use on a GPU, so it's a poor excuse that AMD couldn't have made a few tweaks and sold a cheaper GDDR6 card. AMD is marketing compute cards as cards for gaming, it will likely sell better to those needing a compute card than to gamers. Yeah everyone whined about the price of RTX cards, but its fine to have excuses for these cards? And I think both the RTX cards and this Radeon 7 are overpriced.

Many were expecting a lower priced card based on what exactly? There was never any official statement from AMD about pricing in advance. These were baseless rumors from outlets like wccf tech clickbait articles that "enthusiasts" ran with because they weren't able to differentiate between those of merit or otherwise. Also from what I had read, the rumors were in regards to AMD's next gen architecture and Vega 7 is not that.

 

Regarding your whining about AMD competing against the top tier card, I have already covered this on this forum not that long ago. When you factor in the amount of R&D cost the cutting edge takes It's completely understandable why they have decided to take several generations off from doing so. The low-mid range is where the majority of the sales are. Then you consider the consol market which is much less niche then desktop systems in general and there's no incentive at this point in time to do so. If you don't like the prices, then don't buy. It's pretty damn simple. As long as entitled man-children continue to chase highly diminishing performance returns for the sake of having the best for what normally factors to be less then a years time frame, corporations will take advantage of that. AMD doesn't set nvidia's prices.

 

You know what else is cheaper? Gaming grade video cards without gimmicky RT/tensor cores that at a minimum half your frame rate performance when in use. But this is hailed as some sort of god given gift while AMD's push for higher bandwidth memory, something that the Vega architecture was designed around is deemed unnecessary.... This is not just my opinion either. All the pundits in the industry which know far more then both of us have stated so. If you think AMD could just "make a few tweaks" to substitute it with GDDRX then how about you start with the credentials of your engineering degree because quite frankly without doing so you look about as bright as a broken light bulb.

 

I'm sure as hell not touching the RTX lineup and have no use for the Vega 7 card. I suppose this is the same for many. I recommend you don't buy either. If enough "enthusiasts" take that approach you will see prices fall even if sold at a loss. If this were to occur, I guarantee the next gen from both companies will be cheaper.

[Mcoop894]

If the card is supposed to be on par with the 2060 then the MSRP isn't to out of the ball park for a newly launched card. Most GPU MSRPs are always an over shot of it's actual price. Being patient and seeing benchmarks and reviews of the card will tell us if it's truly worth AMD's asking price.

[cj09beira]

On 1/18/2019 at 6:34 AM, RejZoR said:

I wish I could get Radeon 7 just for a test drive. I wonder how same level HW works on tiny details (like stuttering and smoothness, not in raw framerate numbers way)...

me too, in my case mostly to overclock it to heaven and back, i bet this will be the first amd card to break 2Ghz, i am betting it will do it on water.

On 1/18/2019 at 8:18 AM, Blademaster91 said:

There has been a lot of double standards excusing AMD for these cards as well, many were expecting a cheaper priced card yet its $699 and it's just fine. Of course there is some brand recognition when AMD hasn't been competing in the higher end market,It is good AMD has come up with a GPU that should compete, because without something in the high end Nvidia can charge whatever people are willing to pay.

I mean sure most people like to ride the claim that "raytracing is useless"  its really too early for the node size used which makes it expensive, but at least Nvidia is pushing tech that makes games look better.

And well AMD has been using HBM since the Fury X,and HBM is more expensive than GDDR5X or GDDR6 to use on a GPU, so it's a poor excuse that AMD couldn't have made a few tweaks and sold a cheaper GDDR6 card. AMD is marketing compute cards as cards for gaming, it will likely sell better to those needing a compute card than to gamers. Yeah everyone whined about the price of RTX cards, but its fine to have excuses for these cards? And I think both the RTX cards and this Radeon 7 are overpriced.

in Vega 10's case at the time hbm's price was expected to be much lower, crypto, fpga's using hbm, and high prices on all other memories too meant its price went up quite a lot, more than other standards. So at the time the decision was the right one.

Vega 20 was made for the server market where the extra cost of hbm can be recovered, though nvidea launching the new cards at much higher prices than expected and navi having some sort of hardware error and needing a respin meant amd was able / needed to launch it.

1 hour ago, Hellion said:

Many were expecting a lower priced card based on what exactly? There was never any official statement from AMD about pricing in advance. These were baseless rumors from outlets like wccf tech clickbait articles that "enthusiasts" ran with because they weren't able to differentiate between those of merit or otherwise. Also from what I had read, the rumors were in regards to AMD's next gen architecture and Vega 7 is not that.

 

Regarding your whining about AMD competing against the top tier card, I have already covered this on this forum not that long ago. When you factor in the amount of R&D cost the cutting edge takes It's completely understandable why they have decided to take several generations off from doing so. The low-mid range is where the majority of the sales are. Then you consider the consol market which is much less niche then desktop systems in general and there's no incentive at this point in time to do so. If you don't like the prices, then don't buy. It's pretty damn simple. As long as entitled man-children continue to chase highly diminishing performance returns for the sake of having the best for what normally factors to be less then a years time frame, corporations will take advantage of that. AMD doesn't set nvidia's prices.

 

You know what else is cheaper? Gaming grade video cards without gimmicky RT/tensor cores that at a minimum half your frame rate performance when in use. But this is hailed as some sort of god given gift while AMD's push for higher bandwidth memory, something that the Vega architecture was designed around is deemed unnecessary.... This is not just my opinion either. All the pundits in the industry which know far more then both of us have stated so. If you think AMD could just "make a few tweaks" to substitute it with GDDRX then how about you start with the credentials of your engineering degree because quite frankly without doing so you look about as bright as a broken light bulb.

 

I'm sure as hell not touching the RTX lineup and have no use for the Vega 7 card. I suppose this is the same for many. I recommend you don't buy either. If enough "enthusiasts" take that approach you will see prices fall even if sold at a loss. If this were to occur, I guarantee the next gen from both companies will be cheaper.

ya the rumors of good pricing are all about navi, and they shouldn't be much of reality, its just that amd had a misfire with it and had to moved its launch back, they were supposed to show it at CES.

 

if amd wanted to and had the funds / engineering hours they could very well make an ggdr6 vega card, but amd doesn't have that kind of R&D right now, they even had to take money from vega to make navi right.

On 1/18/2019 at 7:24 AM, Hellion said:

This thread is the perfect example of how blinded a large portion of tech "enthusiasts" are to brand recognition and fanboyism.

You can't be patting nvidia on the ass for "pushing tech forward" by introducing ray tracing to the market while shitting on AMD for trying to do exactly the same with HBM memory.

It's a massive contradiction...

It's also been made clear on this very forum as well as other outlets several times in the past that the current Vega architecture is designed around HBM2. You can't just roll that back and stick GDDRX chips on the PCB in it's place to "make it cheaper". That would require a complete redesign and 7nm Vega is just a die shrink.

The same goes for the price. It's priced the same as the competing nvidia product with double the physical memory and more bandwidth. How useful that is to an individual would depend on the use case which also holds true for ray tracing.

Everyone whined and bitched that nvidia had no competition for the RTX series. Now here it is and it's nothing but double standards and excuses.

If you want cheaper cards then stop buying a new one every generation despite the segment replacement costing significantly more. Both corporations will only continue to produce what they can sell so if you don't buy then the prices will fall. Very simple economics.

vega 7nm is a bit more than a shrink, as it has new instructions for MI, it has fp64 and much more memory bandwidth.

 

[RejZoR]

I don't know why ppl would expect Radeon 7 to be cheaper. It's using 16GB of state of the art memory peaking at insane 1TB/s bandwidth, 4096bit bus width, an absolutely ridiculous compute power and still a performance in games that matches RTX 2080 (which is on GTX 1080Ti performance level for better comparison). Cheapest RTX 2080 go for 670€ on Geizhals and since $ = € model, it's priced about the same because I'm expecting Radeon 7 to be 699€. So, RTX 2080 has useless Ray Tracing, Radeon 7 has useless compute (if we are looking from gamer's perspective). So, they are around on the same level. Power metrics, sure Radeon is a bit worse, but really, who even looks at that? It's like having a V12 Ferrari and worrying over petrol consumption... Ppl who were always the loudest about "muh power consumption" were those not really ever owning these high end cards. And all of a sudden 550W PSU's are some sort of special exotic thing when we had 750W powerhouses ages ago. I had HX750 like 8 years ago already. Still on 750W one so I can pop whatever I want into the system and not worry about anything. So, I find it funny when ppl bitch about it. And yeah, I also had a HD7950 that I was running at 1.2GHz which probably ate over 250W and while it had high heat output, it wasn't all that bad really.

[Stefan Payne]

Adored video about the Navi no show on CES:

 

 

He said it was planned to show Navi, wich would have been released a couple of weeks later. But they found an issue with the chip that required retape. So they had to go with "Plan B", wich was VEGA20...

 

And according to him, it indeed is a limited production run of like 20k now and another 40k or so later.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

I don't know why ppl would expect Radeon 7 to be cheaper.

For the same reason they think anything:

 

1. they listen to idiots on forums,

2. they listen to idiots on youtube

3. they are idiots.

 

I would have thought after enough times seeing people like adored and wccfetch push shit for clicks and watching predictions fall short more often than not, that people would learn marketing is marketing and products are just products. 

 

Cognitive bias is a thing people. 

[Lathlaer]

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

For the same reason they think anything:

 

1. they listen to idiots on forums,

2. they listen to idiots on youtube

3. they are idiots.

I'd add wishful thinking to that list with the provision that not everyone who hopes and dreams is necessarily an idiot

 

Anyway, since AMD started competing with CPU's by offering excellent price/performance ratio and shaming Intel's HEDT pro performance, I think people kind of hoped that they will be this mythic savior in GPU department as well who offers same or better performance for 50% of the price. 

 

It's funny because if they did that  then they'd be essentially taking a hit with every GPU sale (weren't there rumors that they are already selling Radeons below production cost or smth?) but hey, at least they "saved us" from NVIDIA. Doesn't matter if they bancrupt their GPU department in the process, right?

 

[Lathlaer]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I would have thought after enough times seeing people like adored

Don't get me even started on this guy. I have watched his recent video in which he explained why some of his predictions didn't hit the target and boy he did not disappoint.

[Blademaster91]

32 minutes ago, mr moose said:

For the same reason they think anything:

 

1. they listen to idiots on forums,

2. they listen to idiots on youtube

3. they are idiots.

 

I would have thought after enough times seeing people like adored and wccfetch push shit for clicks and watching predictions fall short more often than not, that people would learn marketing is marketing and products are just products. 

 

Cognitive bias is a thing people. 

A lot of the tech channels on youtube repeated the wccf and adored predictions, can't blame them though its easy clicks. Although AMD is often seen as the value brand, and the one that can undercut while still very competitive like Ryzen,which is why I thought the Radeon 7 should have been the cheaper competition.

[CarlBar]

8 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

A lot of the tech channels on youtube repeated the wccf and adored predictions, can't blame them though its easy clicks. Although AMD is often seen as the value brand, and the one that can undercut while still very competitive like Ryzen,which is why I thought the Radeon 7 should have been the cheaper competition.

 

Yeah and adored allways notes that it's leaks, plans can change and sudden unexpected things can happen. Some other leakers do but a lot of the people repeating stuff don't. Just looks at Adored Ryzen 3 leaks. What he said was that they would be announcing Ryzen 3000 at CES and that based on his leaks he speculated that they'd be showing off the 12 or 16 core part.

 

Pretty quickly you had people repeating that he'd said they definitely would be showing off 12/16 core part and they would be launching at CES.

[RejZoR]

I find it funny that people complain over PREDICTIONS or SPECULATIONS not materializing every single time. Why do everyone expect predictions to always be absolutely 100% true? Ppl bitch over AdoredTV's missed predictions or leaks that weren't 100% correct. So frigging what. The fun of speculations and predictions is extrapolating what lies ahead from what we have now. And it's surprising how often we get things right just from that, AdoredTV included.

[Taf the Ghost]

41 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

A lot of the tech channels on youtube repeated the wccf and adored predictions, can't blame them though its easy clicks. Although AMD is often seen as the value brand, and the one that can undercut while still very competitive like Ryzen,which is why I thought the Radeon 7 should have been the cheaper competition.

Radeon 7 would be cheaper if AMD could make it cheaper. HBM2 ruins any consumer product.

[Blademaster91]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

Yeah and adored allways notes that it's leaks, plans can change and sudden unexpected things can happen. Some other leakers do but a lot of the people repeating stuff don't. Just looks at Adored Ryzen 3 leaks. What he said was that they would be announcing Ryzen 3000 at CES and that based on his leaks he speculated that they'd be showing off the 12 or 16 core part.

 

Pretty quickly you had people repeating that he'd said they definitely would be showing off 12/16 core part and they would be launching at CES.

True, the larger tech channels i followed the rumors with, were saying something like "these are maybe leaks maybe rumors, whatever you think of the ones releasing this info still take it with a grain of salt".

The leaks Adored were claiming that we would see Ryzen 3 with more than one CPU chiplet and Navi at CES, when they claim its a "leak" it quickly spread as if its confirmed news that AMD would launch them at CES.

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

I don't know why ppl would expect Radeon 7 to be cheaper. It's using 16GB of state of the art memory peaking at insane 1TB/s bandwidth, 4096bit bus width, an absolutely ridiculous compute power and still a performance in games that matches RTX 2080 (which is on GTX 1080Ti performance level for better comparison). Cheapest RTX 2080 go for 670€ on Geizhals and since $ = € model, it's priced about the same because I'm expecting Radeon 7 to be 699€. So, RTX 2080 has useless Ray Tracing, Radeon 7 has useless compute (if we are looking from gamer's perspective). So, they are around on the same level. Power metrics, sure Radeon is a bit worse, but really, who even looks at that? It's like having a V12 Ferrari and worrying over petrol consumption... Ppl who were always the loudest about "muh power consumption" were those not really ever owning these high end cards. And all of a sudden 550W PSU's are some sort of special exotic thing when we had 750W powerhouses ages ago. I had HX750 like 8 years ago already. Still on 750W one so I can pop whatever I want into the system and not worry about anything. So, I find it funny when ppl bitch about it. And yeah, I also had a HD7950 that I was running at 1.2GHz which probably ate over 250W and while it had high heat output, it wasn't all that bad really.

That is fair enough, for the gamer both RT and the compute power aren't all that useful, though many were expecting Radeon 7 to be cheaper from the people pushing rumors claiming them to be leaked info, and because AMD should be pricing their cards lower even if at a loss to allow them to get back into the high end market.

However power metrics should matter and power consumption does matter to quite a few consumers looking to buying a graphics card. If they're comparing a GPU that uses 215 watts vs. one that uses 300 watts, its enough of a difference to anyone who knows what they are buying. And not everyone wants to have to buy a case,turn up their case fans or buy more fans to dissipate the extra heat, or have to buy a more expensive PSU. Though if the GPU is needed for only compute tasks or content creation the Radeon 7 would probably be the better choice.

[RejZoR]

Navi will be cheaper, because it'll be a purpose built design just like Polaris was. Fury, Vega and Radeon 7 were never meant to be that. Especially Radeon 7 is being sold so they have something even if they make no profit off it. Business stuff and all that to keep shareholders happy. It makes perfect sense from a business perspective, they need to look relevant before they can get money making product on the market again (the Navi).

[Taf the Ghost]

32 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Navi will be cheaper, because it'll be a purpose built design just like Polaris was. Fury, Vega and Radeon 7 were never meant to be that. Especially Radeon 7 is being sold so they have something even if they make no profit off it. Business stuff and all that to keep shareholders happy. It makes perfect sense from a business perspective, they need to look relevant before they can get money making product on the market again (the Navi).

At some level, Adored is correct that they needed some GPU for Lisa Su's big keynote. If they had to respin Navi in September, then it makes sense they'd push it back for the normal GPU launch cycle from AMD. (As a technical note, about 2/3rd of dGPU sales are in H2 every year, if anyone is wondering why August seems so important for GPU announcements.)

 

Though we'd been getting competing rumors about the Radeon 7 being on & off all year.

 

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1873752-1-1.html this is from the end of June 2018.

 

Machine Translation:

 

Quote

1.16GB hbm2 4096bit or 64cu, the result is that Su Ma can't help but throw it into the gaming market. I know that hbm2 sells the gaming market and sells a piece of money.
2. Next year q1 release
3.navi will be later, first out of the middle card, followed by the high-end version of hbm2
4.q4 has polaris30, 12nm, performance +15%... I don't know how to plan, because there will be navi replacing this positioning product soon, and the vest is estimated to be called rx 680.

"Su Ma" would be Lisa Su, AMD's CEO. #1, 2 and 4 were correct at the time. Though AMD went with the MI50 card versions (probably because of yields) and they ended up calling it the RX 590. Big Navi we know is coming, just that it's probably early 2020 release.

[Taf the Ghost]

22 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

HHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA MOMMA SU

My personal favorite weird translation from Chiphell is their term for Intel: Toothpaste Factory.

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

no that's actually on purpose. dudes on the internet there do have colloquial pet names for celebs and high level people

google's your uncle

It's obviously a meme name, but the fact it has stuck is funnier. I'd also assume it's probably easier to type than either switching character sets of whatever Intel's official name in China is.