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Uttamattamakin

Windows 10 May Reserve Another 7GB For Updates.

7 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

Yeah, when hardware was expensive, higher dev costs made more sense. As hardware gets cheaper, high dev costs no longer make sense.

I understand that, but when you are a software company, which is by far the most widely used PC operating system, then maybe you should invest some money into optimizing it.

"It costs money" is to me not a valid excuse for doing a poor job. Again, imagine if Volkswagen used that excuse for poor miles per gallon results compared to their competitors.

"It costs a lot of money to make the engines more efficient".

 

And yes I understand that Microsoft makes money basically regardless of how well optimized Windows is. I can understand business decisions for how to allocate resources without having to agree with it. What I am saying here is that I wish Microsoft would take better care of Windows than they do.

 

As a consumer and user of their product, I don't really care how much money they make from something. What I care about is how good the product is. I am not here to argue how Microsoft can create a product I will buy with as little effort as possible. I am here to voice my opinion about how I think Microsoft should make the product better for me. I am not employed by Microsoft so I don't have any obligation to defend them. I am a user so I should express what I want.

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1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

i agree with that. the point is i don't need everyhting else Pro comes with. if there was a version like Home but with the option to disable updates for a few days for €20 more or something i would go for it.

You could just disable the Windows Update Service. That's what I do. But then you don't get anything at all (which is what I want personally).

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Just now, firelighter487 said:

i agree with that. the point is i don't need everyhting else Pro comes with. if there was a version like Home but with the option to disable updates for a few days for €20 more or something i would go for it.

I understand.  It sucks for you, but you are in the minority of tech users who would benefit from that one ability (and have the wherewithal to arrange suitable update procedures), meanwhile the other 600Million home users need updates automatic or they become part of botnets and spread malware.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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2 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Sorry, for me to accept any argument you make, you must pay me for it. Do you not know how posting works in this forum? You don't deserve my time or acknowledgement if you're not paying for it. That's how products work.

I know your trying to make a point here but I think it got lost in a few lateral leaps and some sideways analogies.

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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2 minutes ago, TempestCatto said:

You could just disable the Windows Update Service. That's what I do. But then you don't get anything at all (which is what I want personally).

i want updates. i care about my security. however i sometimes want to leave my pc on for 24 to 48 hours without it rebooting on it's own.

 

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I understand.  It sucks for you, but you are in the minority of tech users who would benefit from that one ability (and have the wherewithal to arrange suitable update procedures), meanwhile the other 600Million home users need updates automatic or they become part of botnets and spread malware.

it does. kinda annoying honestly. it would be nice if updates were managed by a cortana-like AI that would realize that i reboot my pc at least a few times a week.


They/Them :) 

Nokia 7.2 | 128GB | Android

Laptop: Asus ZenBook Pro | Core i5 7200U | HD620 - GTX 950M | 8GB RAM | 250GB + 128GB SSD | Windows 10

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3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i want updates. i care about my security. however i sometimes want to leave my pc on for 24 to 48 hours without it rebooting on it's own.

 

it does. kinda annoying honestly. it would be nice if updates were managed by a cortana-like AI that would realize that i reboot my pc at least a few times a week.

Just have a good A/V, good VPN, and common sense. That's the best security right there. But I'm pretty sure you can schedule the updates, so I think you set it up to only install on certain days. Then it wouldn't restart until then, or I think you can set it to not even restart automatically. But then when you shutdown, it will update.

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1 minute ago, TempestCatto said:

Just have a good A/V, good VPN, and common sense. That's the best security right there. But I'm pretty sure you can schedule the updates, so I think you set it up to only install on certain days. Then it wouldn't restart until then, or I think you can set it to not even restart automatically. But then when you shutdown, it will update.

@mr moose siad that as well. i haven'tfound the option to schedule to certain days yet. if you know where it is tell me xD


They/Them :) 

Nokia 7.2 | 128GB | Android

Laptop: Asus ZenBook Pro | Core i5 7200U | HD620 - GTX 950M | 8GB RAM | 250GB + 128GB SSD | Windows 10

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19 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

@mr moose siad that as well. i haven'tfound the option to schedule to certain days yet. if you know where it is tell me xD

It's called update hours.

 

Click the start button and type update to search for an app, the second or third option should be "windows update settings". On that page you can select "change active hours". I have mine set to 8am until 5pm, I only need to leave the computer on for a day or two after update Tuesday and the thing hardly reboots on me. you could set the hours to: from 12am until 5 am and then just leave the pc on over night a couple of times after update Tuesday and that should have the same effect.

 

EDIT: Once it has done its update and rebooted if necessary after update Tuesday,  it shouldn't need to reboot again until the next month.  The only time it might is if a serious security update has been pushed through.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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2 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

macOS is free

It isn't really free. To get OSX, you have to buy Apple's hardware, which is set at a price premium.

2 hours ago, firelighter487 said:

and Linux is free

Linux is free because it's not worth paying for.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Linux is free because it's not worth paying for.

ouch


They/Them :) 

Nokia 7.2 | 128GB | Android

Laptop: Asus ZenBook Pro | Core i5 7200U | HD620 - GTX 950M | 8GB RAM | 250GB + 128GB SSD | Windows 10

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2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I know your trying to make a point here but I think it got lost in a few lateral leaps and some sideways analogies.

 

Nope. I have literally no reason to accept anything you say. Likewise, I have no reason to stick to Windows 10 if it starts to cause problems. You yourself said this is a business deal between MS and the user. Well guess what, the user can go elsewhere (Mac, Android, Linux etc).

 

Or, we can act like adults and realise communication and business is a two way street, and if MS want to take control of their OS while on my computer, they may lose me as a customer.

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4 hours ago, mr moose said:

I understand.  It sucks for you, but you are in the minority of tech users who would benefit from that one ability (and have the wherewithal to arrange suitable update procedures), meanwhile the other 600Million home users need updates automatic or they become part of botnets and spread malware.

I think the feature should be there in Windows 10 Home to delay the updates if I need to have my PC on without restarting, most don't need all the features of Pro but may need to have their PC on for critical work, the option could be hidden in settings so most home users wouldn't delay the important security patches.

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6 hours ago, mr moose said:

or they become part of botnets and spread malware.

This is pretty much false, even with updates it still happen and it always will. Why? Because the source of the problem isnt the missing updates but the person sitting in front of the PC. Up until last year December i used my Win7 PC to surf the web, the last tim e it seen updates was back in 2016, and it never had an infection, hell my AV didnt even had any job... 🤣

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12 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Nope. I have literally no reason to accept anything you say. Likewise, I have no reason to stick to Windows 10 if it starts to cause problems. You yourself said this is a business deal between MS and the user. Well guess what, the user can go elsewhere (Mac, Android, Linux etc).

I've never actually said people should stick with windows if they find a more appropriate OS. Edit: in fact I have been a loud proponent that if windows isn't working for them they should try Linux or consider other options.

Quote

Or, we can act like adults and realise communication and business is a two way street, and if MS want to take control of their OS while on my computer, they may lose me as a customer.

I am already doing that, MS make a product and if you don;t like it you can always upgrade to enterprise or use Linux. 

 

11 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think the feature should be there in Windows 10 Home to delay the updates if I need to have my PC on without restarting, most don't need all the features of Pro but may need to have their PC on for critical work, the option could be hidden in settings so most home users wouldn't delay the important security patches.

I really don;t know how any of that would look.  I would assume if MS could make the whole process less obtrusive they would.

8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

This is pretty much false, even with updates it still happen and it always will. Why? Because the source of the problem isnt the missing updates but the person sitting in front of the PC. Up until last year December i used my Win7 PC to surf the web, the last tim e it seen updates was back in 2016, and it never had an infection, hell my AV didnt even had any job... 🤣

What you have just claimed here is false, absolutely false.  off course keeping your system upto date helps prevent it become infected by malware and botnets.   You don't have to be a technical expert to know this.  Remember I have already linked the proof, non updated windows 7 computers were the main culprit for the spread of wannacry and it had nothing to do with the user. it was not a worm and it did not rely on user interaction, you only had to be linked to an infected network.

 

Remember when CCleaner was infected with malware, it was a tool recommended and used by many on these forums at that time.  The existence of spiders is still a thing using drive by downloads. 

 

You seem to forget that we are talking about the general public who use their computers and not enthusiasts who might retain a tight control over how their system is used.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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10 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Linux is free because it's not worth paying for.

Ok, now you've just gone too far, thankfully there are no hardcore Linux users in this thread.

 

Also IBM bought Red Hat for $34 Billion USD so they thought Linux was worth something...

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/ibm-buys-red-hat-in-us34-billion-deal-514631

 

My goal is not to derail this thread with a discussion on Linux however, so let's just move on.

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18 minutes ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Ok, now you've just gone too far, thankfully there are no hardcore Linux users in this thread.

 

Also IBM bought Red Hat for $34 Billion USD so they thought Linux was worth something...

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/ibm-buys-red-hat-in-us34-billion-deal-514631

 

My goal is not to derail this thread with a discussion on Linux however, so let's just move on.

I wouldn't quite equate RHEL with Linux being that the former is actually well supported.


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3 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

I wouldn't quite equate RHEL with Linux being that the former is actually well supported.

I understand it's an exaggeration but to say Linux, which is made up of many distros including Red Hat, is not worth paying for is just wrong. Like with anything, there are good implementations and bad implementations. It's just semantics in the end.

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Just now, ZacoAttaco said:

understand it's an exaggeration

No, it's not. Linux is not worth paying for at any consumer level.

 

1 minute ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Like with anything, there are good implementations and bad implementations

Good Linux implementations are ones that corporations create for themselves, by themselves, and keep to themselves. Highly customized and specialized to the point that they resemble nothing that we see.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:02 AM, Lukyp said:

Hi, welcome to the forum, first of all I appreciate your optimism, this is clearly how you could manage everything, could perfectly suitable for a lot of people, but some of them cannot always be applied, for various reasons.

First of all I don't want to be mean, I don't want to create other useless discussions, don't read the following just because it seems I'm Linux guy, I don't care that much about it, I'm not attached to some stupid fanboyism and saying that only a single OS is better and you shouldn't using everything else is just for idiots, I just use those for my convenience

Personally I'm just tired of memes about OSes too, specifically because as a perfect one doesn't exist, fanboyism(which is just for kids honestly defending an OS just because you don't know anything else) and ignorance are the main problem here and could be applied for people just spitting crap about Linux and MacOS as well

But first of all the focus of an OS developer should be to guarantee stability and security, but this is just the wrong way, an user shouldn't adapt as the OS decides, the focus is to make life to the user easier, while maintain security, and this is a job which Linux and Mac OS are doing much better, you wouldn't need to always backup the data or remember when windows update kicks in, those are the kind of things you should do for hardware failures or when in need to protect important data for example.
This is just adapting to what the OS does, now I'm happy that some people including you can find those easy to manage, but this needs to be like that just for everyone, and the OS should help you first doing that, an example could be least implementing a feature where you can always postpone them or decide specifically or having a popup reminder (like MacOS) 

In the past with the service packs updates methods + traditional updates, huge problems that are happening now like random deleted data, even not of all systems, were not a common thing, this also needs clearly a better integration with the Insider program + more testing as what it seems to me is they are pushing out too much features without testing them, I found a lot of bugs by myself I also reported to them and I would not be surprised to encounter other serious issues

Again, even if Windows is the primary target for malwares forcing updates in this way isn't a long-term solution, improving the Windows Defender features is, live patching of security threats, testing more and finding other ways is... 
Some users (even the lazy ones that download malwares for example we talked about in this thread) can workaround the updates in other ways like I said on the other posts, updates should just be in control of the user, since what some people say is that this is because for irresponsible people never updating, in the future those "irresponsible people" can discover they can set up a metered connection and never update, isn't better to just let decide everyone instead? This won't change anything as the "responsible" ones would update when they could anyway, and the malware infections would stay the same
Certainly not forcing and also taking 7GB of disk space just because microsoft knows that an issue could happen because they don't test those properly (because from what I understood this is something could be used for doing backups files in case of issues)

And anyway his is a problem, especially for those who actually work a lot in their computer and could not have the time to do always the updates, and this is can clearly happen in the future even if you must do something important, thus losing precious time.
People are underestimating how wasting time in the wrong moment could be counterproductive, and upgrading to an Enterprise Windows version isn't an excuse 

With all that said it is is clearly an OS fault, getting over it just means you are subjugating and  to this when people should actually make this change, as we far understood that this is frustrating for a lot of people even in this thread who hate Linux or MacOS, and unnecessary

The 7GB are not the problem, the problem is the kind of approach, 7GB today, and what in the future? There have been moments where Microsoft began to optimize their OS to be less memory-demanding by also dropping old drivers for example, or like when they developed Windows 7 which was lighter than Windows Vista, but now this trend seems just to indicate that they have abandoned this focus, didn't happened as well on other OS, technology changing doesn't have anything to do with that
I hope this won't be the trend like not optimizing code because you can tell users to buy new hardware instead, 32GB honestly are also enough, for having more than 20GB free for example, that's has nothing to do with "you want the cheap things? then this is what you get", I would agree if you would get something like 1 million photos, but this is an OS, it needs to be optimized, essential and lightweight as possible, not complicated and unoptimized

Also a lot of small factor devices just don't have an HDD or upgradeability , but instead an eMMC and this doesn't mean they are lazy to get an HDD or an SSD, in that case the OS is just becoming more unsuitable, they don't even separate Windows versions for small devices like those, and this is another problem, using Android only for example is another world, and I can confirm this as I own a 32GB tablet I use only for reading Uni books, I don't have space for anything else in Windows 10 Home today, what in the future? 

And this is not just saying and doing bs microsoft memes about it, it's just how it is and they should definitely improve things and do something about imo, justifying and getting over it is not a solution

Also, the Windows Kernel has nothing to do with this kind of updates, unix-like systems like MacOS has a microkernel, DragonFlyBSD an Hybrid one like Windows, linux a monolithic with microkernel features, but they update differently
Also the other suggestions could apply to every OS as well, but not because of eventually broken updates...

That's clearly an opposite opinion as the other ones I had with mr.mosse and you could not agree with that but that's just our different point of views, we will see the consequences in the future and discuss again, now this is the last post I will make in there

sorry for the TL;DR and good night everyone

Hello Luckyp,

 

While you do offer some interesting points i cannot agree that it is not entirely Microsoft's responsibility to try and suit almost a billion devices by nit picking their updates. I also use many OSes besides Windows, and unlike Microsoft, they do not have so much stigma about the update cycles which allows a that to update as they please without fear of backlash. Also, if someone where to purchase a low-grade computer with limited storage then you have accepted limited use of memory unless you deliberately try and upgrade it, or use a concoction of solutions to fit everything.

 

Microsoft also does test their updates and the October dumpster-fire was a disaster of course, but every messes up at some stage no matter how hard we try.

 

Allowing users to update whenever they want is also a double-edged blade, IF Microsoft allowed users to never update then only the most I.T. minded individuals would update their systems. Like i said earlier we know when the updates come out, so someone can fit 20 mins into their schedule to accommodate it after backing up their data. Also, in the case of production machines, and workstations, well if that is such a huge deal, then disconnect them from the Internet to perform the work. Music producers love disconnecting their PCs from the Internet to protect their data for example.

 

If people never updated because Microsoft gave them all of the power then people would complain when their machines are hacked due to security loop holes from updating negligence. Live-patching is also a long shot since Microsoft cannot update almost a billion devices at once, they would have to segment the updates to every day of the month in chunks of x amount of PCs at a time and they would be continuously running the updates costing more money, power and time to ensure it is all done.

 

Most people do need to get over it and while that does sound mean it is not without merit. Some people are just never satisfied with things and thy just need to accept something to get on with it.

 

There is no such thing as a perfect solution, but hopefully we can get a better one.

 

Sincerely,

 

JATG

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, JustAnotherTechGuy99 said:

 IF Microsoft allowed users to never update then only the most I.T. minded individuals would update their systems.

 

Even some of them don;t update, that why wannacry took out large corporations.  It highlighted just how lax some can be.  And with regard to IT minded individuals, well, we have one or two here that like to boast they never update and that updates don't reduce security security holes.  If the rest of the tech community won't attenuate that kind of rhetoric then I guess it's no wonder we have so many debates over the importance of updates.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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10 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Ok, now you've just gone too far, thankfully there are no hardcore Linux users in this thread.

i am one, but i'm also not stupid enough to explode in anger becuase i don't wanna get banned xD


They/Them :) 

Nokia 7.2 | 128GB | Android

Laptop: Asus ZenBook Pro | Core i5 7200U | HD620 - GTX 950M | 8GB RAM | 250GB + 128GB SSD | Windows 10

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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Even some of them don;t update, that why wannacry took out large corporations.  It highlighted just how lax some can be.  And with regard to IT minded individuals, well, we have one or two here that like to boast they never update and that updates don't reduce security security holes.  If the rest of the tech community won't attenuate that kind of rhetoric then I guess it's no wonder we have so many debates over the importance of updates.

Applying Windows updates is a bit like an upside down bell curve. As people get more experienced in computers the likelihood of actually applying those updates reduces, when you get experienced enough you start to realize that is stupid and install them again.

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13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Applying Windows updates is a bit like an upside down bell curve. As people get more experienced in computers the likelihood of actually applying those updates reduces, when you get experienced enough you start to realize that is stupid and install them again.

Except in the cases where updates cause issues (which happens quite often, although not every issues affects all users).

For example I doubt an experienced person would install the Windows update that broke Cisco AnyConnect when their clients rely on it just because "only inexperienced people don't install updates lol!".

 

I don't think updates is so simple that you can put a group of people into one bucket and say "these people are just ignorant" or "these people are the same ones".

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58 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Except in the cases where updates cause issues (which happens quite often, although not every issues affects all users).

For example I doubt an experienced person would install the Windows update that broke Cisco AnyConnect when their clients rely on it just because "only inexperienced people don't install updates lol!".

 

I don't think updates is so simple that you can put a group of people into one bucket and say "these people are just ignorant" or "these people are the same ones".

That's not even the point, you took the time to check the updates to make sure they are compatible ergo you are on the other side of the bell. Straight up not bothering/blocking is on the other side/tip.

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1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Applying Windows updates is a bit like an upside down bell curve. As people get more experienced in computers the likelihood of actually applying those updates reduces, when you get experienced enough you start to realize that is stupid and install them again.

I just think in the grander scheme of things that there are too many humans in control.  Things will always go wrong somewhere, that doesn't mean people should stop trying to solve problems, hell it doesn't even mean the mess we have now isn't the best option. We're just not omnipotent enough to be perfect about it.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I just think in the grander scheme of things that there are too many humans in control.  Things will always go wrong somewhere, that doesn't mean people should stop trying to solve problems, hell it doesn't even mean the mess we have now isn't the best option. We're just not omnipotent enough to be perfect about it.

Again. But should I let MS decide? Should MS be able to decide I cannot work today? I have Win 7 because I do not wish to give that control to MS. What they are doing to 10 makes things worse in that regards.

 

However, this is a mute point. The 7GB is a general cache, and there is nothing stopping say Steam from using it also, as well as Updates.

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