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Windows To Blame For Poor AMD ThreadRipper Performance

BuckGup
By BuckGup
in Tech News
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Posted
3 hours ago, mr moose said:

However it does make me shake my head a bit when I read some of the other comments in this thread when not only does the OP contains all the information you need to know it is a windows Issue, but basically most of the details where thrashed out on the first page.

And not to mention, this being a Windows issue that affects both AMD and Intel has been known for some time now. It's not new news.

 

And yeah, anyone who thinks Windows will die over something like this is kidding themselves. This is something that will affect like 0.01% of the population, most people don't even know what a core is, or what Linux is. Hell, many people think CPU is short for "computer". Not downplaying the issue, believe me, I love shit talking Windows, but this issue isn't even gonna leave a scratch on Windows. Really people, if Windows has survived all the bullshit surrounding it for all these years (ESPECIALLY in the last few years), do you really think it's going down? And do you really think something this small will bring it there?

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It honestly doesn't seem like there is much reason for Microsoft to spend money fixing this. Niche within a niche, etc.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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What list of software does this affect anyways,

I wonder if Windows did get re-programmed so all worked well that the over all system would be faster.

PC games would run faster or smoother.

I am not sure what programs this problem is holding back.

It would be interesting to see results Microsoft ever does fix it.

I see something get fix in a program and other things not truly related all the sudden also work better.

I think of game patches, and firmware updates.

 

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44 minutes ago, dreamer77dd said:

What list of software does this affect anyways,

I wonder if Windows did get re-programmed so all worked well that the over all system would be faster.

PC games would run faster or smoother.

I am not sure what programs this problem is holding back.

It would be interesting to see results Microsoft ever does fix it.

I see something get fix in a program and other things not truly related all the sudden also work better.

I think of game patches, and firmware updates.

 

Could affect everything minorly and adding more cores makes it more noticeable

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
Just now, dreamer77dd said:

What list of software does this affect anyways

Phoronix did a lot of testing showing that it affects many types of workloads.

 

What we need now is more real world benchmarks to measure the impact of the 'fixes'. Unfortunately there is a lack of coverage from mainstream tech outlets on this subject both when it comes to testing as well as questioning Microsoft and AMD.

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3 minutes ago, Humbug said:

What we need now is more real world benchmarks to measure the impact of the 'fixes'. Unfortunately there is a lack of coverage from mainstream tech outlets on this subject both when it comes to testing as well as questioning Microsoft and AMD.

When a fix comes out and if we still remember by that point I'd be happy to run some comparison Intel tests as well, maybe by that point I'd have some AMD/EPYC systems to be able to both.

 

I'm not short on high core count dual and quad socket Intel servers to do testing on.

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8 hours ago, Drak3 said:

It honestly doesn't seem like there is much reason for Microsoft to spend money fixing this. Niche within a niche, etc.

Neither me paying an OS like Windows which has this sort of bugs and other nasty things
 

6 hours ago, Humbug said:

Phoronix did a lot of testing showing that it affects many types of workloads.

 

What we need now is more real world benchmarks to measure the impact of the 'fixes'. Unfortunately there is a lack of coverage from mainstream tech outlets on this subject both when it comes to testing as well as questioning Microsoft and AMD.


I think the only reason to blame AMD is the fact they didn't wait for Microsoft to release a fix, they definitely contacted them, but it's  still definitely a Microsoft responsibility if this is not fixed today as they are the only one that could change it's source code, it's still Microsoft fault anyway, they are a pretty big company and yes, they will spend money on fixing it but it's just their job even for that 1% of users (and anyway we are talking about the future as intel is probably going to make the same decision as they are adding cores like AMD, now this is what something you would like to do on your OS considering that even those people are even paying for it)

I don't know in detail the Linux source code, but that could just be ahead of the time by simply considering more than one NUMA node as a future-proof and well built scheduler or just directly fixed by AMD prior the product release as they usually do that one year before, or even by someone else as Linux can be changed by anyone as the code is acceptable

 

Also, could AMD publicly blame Microsoft for not fixing it? I think they would be in legal troubles or something lol

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9 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

I don't know in detail the Linux source code, but that could just be ahead of the time by simply considering more than one NUMA node as a future-proof and well built scheduler or just directly fixed by AMD prior the product release as they usually do that one year before, or even by someone else as Linux can be changed by anyone as the code is acceptable

Windows actually is multiple NUMA node aware, has been for a long time. This bug in the scheduler doesn't make it not NUMA aware. There are two other rather common factors here too; most server applications that can or would utilize multiple NUMA nodes on Windows are themselves NUMA aware and don't solely rely on Windows scheduler so wouldn't be hit by this bug and second most servers now days run hypervisors and multiple VMs and you compartmentalize applications or functions of an application stack in to multiple VMs and only give the exact required number of virtual CPUs to the VM. Very few of our Windows Server VMs have more than 8 vCPUs assigned to them.

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18 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

Neither me paying an OS like Windows which has this sort of bugs and other nasty things

Rather use an OS that has a minor issue that nearly no one ACTUALLY using this CPU over an OS that I need to fix at minimum weekly..

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Windows actually is multiple NUMA node aware, has been for a long time. This bug in the scheduler doesn't make it not NUMA aware. There are two other rather common factors here too; most server applications that can or would utilize multiple NUMA nodes on Windows are themselves NUMA aware and don't solely rely on Windows scheduler so wouldn't be hit by this bug and second most servers now days run hypervisors and multiple VMs and you compartmentalize applications or functions of an application stack in to multiple VMs and only give the exact required number of virtual CPUs to the VM. Very few of our Windows Server VMs have more than 8 vCPUs assigned to them.

I would like to have the money for an expensive server and run bare metal hypervisors by myself to test those things 

 

Anyway I think is not certainly present on VMware baremetal hypervisor or KVM other than just in Windows if you would even assign more CPU

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17 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

Anyway I think is not certainly present on VMware baremetal hypervisor or KVM other than just in Windows if you would even assign more CPU

Assigning like 20+ cores to a Windows VM isn't that common though, we have some MSSQL servers that have that amount but MSSQL is not effected by this.

 

We have a lot of video encoding VMs to deal with lecture theater recordings and make them available for viewing but we split those up in to many 8 core VMs so multiple jobs can run at once. I can't actually think of a single Windows VM we have that is over 8 vCPUs that isn't an MSSQL server.

 

Even our physical Windows servers are MSSQL clusters.

 

If virtualization never came to be this bug probably would have been noticed far sooner.

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Just now, leadeater said:

If virtualization never came to be this bug probably would have been noticed far sooner.

I am almost sure some folks at AMD knew it at the first place though

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3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'm glad they didn't wait.  How else can I flex my CB score with my 1950x at 4.0?

But with downloading more ram of course, or use cb with wine on Linux...

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13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Assigning like 20+ cores to a Windows VM isn't that common though, we have some MSSQL servers that have that amount but MSSQL is not effected by this.

 

We have a lot of video encoding VMs to deal with lecture theater recordings and make them available for viewing but we split those up in to many 8 core VMs so multiple jobs can run at once. I can't actually think of a single Windows VM we have that is over 8 vCPUs that isn't an MSSQL server.

 

Even our physical Windows servers are MSSQL clusters.

 

If virtualization never came to be this bug probably would have been noticed far sooner.

It should be noted if you tweak affinity after a program is active, the issue goes away. Which is partially how the program they've developed deals with the issue. While I don't believe we're getting 64 core parts with TR3 (I expect AMD to hold those for TR4 and just 48c parts in TR3), we could see these issues being even worse until they get addressed. 

 

Though I kind of imagine the whole "use this program to fix Windows Scheduler problems with TR2" will get up to AMD & MS eventually.

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3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ya, but...

I was on battery, but whatever... Sometimes gives some better decimals than windows though 
image.thumb.png.121142f628d1bb96a7d6584af42ba09b.png
 

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5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I am actually considering dual booting again rather than just waiting for MS to fix the issue.  I'd probably just us Ubuntu, though.

Only if you need that horsepower, and if you have the supported programs, personally I got some other bugs on Linux on the other hand I cannot forgive though especially on my desktop (Alsa can be considered a Linux kernel fault) 
Or just use Windows with CorePrio instead of setting manually the affinity every time

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So what were the workloads that were affected again?

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1 hour ago, Okjoek said:

So what were the workloads that were affected again?

Pretty much anything that can hit 33 thread load under Windows 10. A lot of programs have functional caps of 16 threads, so it's pretty much only Rendering programs, on Windows, that can do it.

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5 hours ago, Lukyp said:

I think the only reason to blame AMD is the fact they didn't wait for Microsoft to release a fix, they definitely contacted them, but it's  still definitely a Microsoft responsibility if this is not fixed today as they are the only one that could change it's source code, it's still Microsoft fault anyway, they are a pretty big company and yes, they will spend money on fixing it but it's just their job even for that 1% of users (and anyway we are talking about the future as intel is probably going to make the same decision as they are adding cores like AMD, now this is what something you would like to do on your OS considering that even those people are even paying for it)

Oh I don't blame AMD for this issue at all, it's totally on Microsoft. I only blame AMD for the lack of communication. My point was that since AMD's product was directly affected they should have released a statement saying that this is a known issue on windows and that they are waiting on Microsoft for a fix. Instead they just allowed the tech press to speculate and they created this funny 'game mode' in RyzenMaster as a workaround.

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5 hours ago, Humbug said:

Oh I don't blame AMD for this issue at all, it's totally on Microsoft. I only blame AMD for the lack of communication. My point was that since AMD's product was directly affected they should have released a statement saying that this is a known issue on windows and that they are waiting on Microsoft for a fix. Instead they just allowed the tech press to speculate and they created this funny 'game mode' in RyzenMaster as a workaround.

game mode is a workaround too? lol??

 

this is the first game mode I heard which doesn't just do useless things like killing other programs or blocking notifications and actually do something to the cpu

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