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BuckGup

Windows To Blame For Poor AMD ThreadRipper Performance

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8 minutes ago, bitsandpieces said:

So, you're telling me AMD tested TR on Windows (prior to launch) and found no issues, then what's the fuss all about?

To which the majority of applications performed as expected and the list that did not wasn't large and was already believed to be a Windows scheduler issue which Microsoft did release a patch for. For the applications that did not perform correctly it was thought to be those scheduler problems along with the remote memory to the 2 dies, good theory but not correct due to Linux not exhibiting the issue under the same conditions and software.

 

Complex problems are rarely found easily or fixed quickly, often go unnoticed until someone takes the time to investigate.

 

Failing to identify that there is an issue is not the same as there not being an issue, it's easy to cast judgment in hindsight but companies releasing new product don't have the luxury of operating in hindsight.

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4 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

AMD probably found issues and reported them to microsoft. and as of today nothing has happened. we have known this being an issue as of launch. and Microsoft probably known earlier than us. 

Probably, maybe?!

 

Hi there guys, we launched a new CPU with these awesome features, but don't use it on Windows ..

Applause all around

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1 minute ago, bitsandpieces said:

Probably, maybe?!

 

Here guying we launched a new CPU with these awesome features, but don't use it on Windows ..

Applause all around

see @leadeater response above. there is more to an issue than: we found the reason behind a bug we properly discovered 3 months after launch, therefore it should have been fixed at launch

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12 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Right but the cause was unknown

You need to pay more $$ per core thats why it capped out, youre dealing with Microshit here xD

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3 hours ago, bitsandpieces said:

Probably, maybe?!

 

Hi there guys, we launched a new CPU with these awesome features, but don't use it on Windows ..

Applause all around

Ahhh, I was wondering what the Windows apologists were gonna come up with this time. So AMD is responsible for the flawed way Windows handles lots of cores? There's a laugh. These problems also apply to Intel CPUs too, but if you actually did ANY amount of research you would have known that.

 

 


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11 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

AMD probably found issues and reported them to microsoft. and as of today nothing has happened. we have known this being an issue as of launch. and Microsoft probably known earlier than us. 

It is likely that behind the scenes MS are working on this even if they don't give public status updates of it.


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I would say we've known about this issue for a while, including some patches:

 


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1 minute ago, porina said:

It is likely that behind the scenes MS are working on this even if they don't give public status updates of it.

very likely. seing as high threadcounts and chiplet design is starting to become the norm with even intel looking at creating chips in the near-ish future.

 

edit: Also, the sqedualler issue might be deeply integrated into Windows which might make it difficult to replace quickly

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Just now, yian88 said:

youre dealing with Microshit here

... i was about to make a flushing-with-the-toilet-lid-up reference, but I don't think I should squick people out this publicly ._.

 

Spoiler

if you must....

 

 

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1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

very likely. seing as high threadcounts and chiplet design is starting to become the norm with even intel looking at creating chips in the near-ish future.

Also enthusiasts also need to get on with understanding it too... had various dual socket systems so not new to me, but it is ever more accessible to more people. Not quite mass mainstream yet, but getting closer...


Main rig: Asus Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700k stock, Noctua D14, G.Skill Ripjaws V 3200 2x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 1650, Corsair HX750i, In Win 303 NVIDIA, Samsung SM951 512GB, WD Blue 1TB, HP LP2475W 1200p wide gamut

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Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 3600, Noctua D9L, G.SKill TridentZ 3000C14 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, WD Green 240GB SSD, LG OLED55B9PLA

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Just now, porina said:

Also enthusiasts also need to get on with understanding it too... had various dual socket systems so not new to me, but it is ever more accessible to more people. Not quite mass mainstream yet, but getting closer...

wasnt the "dual-socket support" on the threadripper mentioned in a leak? the Ryzen 3000 leaks iirc. dont quote me on that as im pretty unshure about that one

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7 minutes ago, rcmaehl said:

I would say we've known about this issue for a while, including some patches:

this is more of the nuances though o_o as mentioned in L1T's piece it's pretty annoying to pinpoint the source of the issue when they first reported it

also if top-end EPYCs are affected, most manycore Threadrippers (excluding the WX ones for specifics) should be affected similarly as well ._.

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hm... yes this shows me once again, that Windows just isn't very good. I have moved to Linux for 90% of my work and even gaming, thanks to level1tech. The only real reason for using Windows is when I want to record the occasional video and edit it(video production is not very good on Linux)... That's it.

But I have actual reasons for not liking Windows. The updates are often buggy and unfinished, Microsoft installs Beta software on peoples PCs who get updates manually(such as myself, because I like install updates when I'm ready to actually install them), but the Insider Program is obviously responsible for testing unfinished software, the OS Is buggy and inconsistent, the new settings app is just abysmal oh and the best part is the Windows licenses can only be used a finite amount of times to reactivate Windows after a fresh install. That is just madness. I know this can be mitigated by just tying the License to your MS account. Another thing that makes no sense what so ever is that the Physical Office licenses you find in stores, can not be used to renew an active subscription, rather it can only be used to activate a new Subscription.

So yes I have had my fair share of annoyances with Microsoft and their products.  

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Just now, chazragg said:

it's like crying that Nvidia is at fault because valve games don't support raytracing.

was going to make a similar comparison if it continued. 

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2 minutes ago, porina said:

Also enthusiasts also need to get on with understanding it too... had various dual socket systems so not new to me, but it is ever more accessible to more people. Not quite mass mainstream yet, but getting closer...

Long, long, long time ago I used to run this at home. Super old HP/Compaq ML570 Quad Xeon 700 MHz (the Intel slot CPU generation).

ML_570_G1_Front__02304.1432133732.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

 

Absolute tank of a server, slow as shit, at least by the standard of the time when I had it lol. Great to work on though, hotswap everything including PCI-X cards (you can see the top access panel for them in the pic).

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15 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

wasnt the "dual-socket support" on the threadripper mentioned in a leak? the Ryzen 3000 leaks iirc. dont quote me on that as im pretty unshure about that one

My reference to dual socket was more about NUMA in general. I wasn't aware of talk of TR going multi-socket.

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Long, long, long time ago I used to run this at home. Super old HP/Compaq ML570 Quad Xeon 700 MHz (the Intel slot CPU generation).

We might be of similar vintage. My first multi-socket system was on the Abit BP6 with a pair of Celerons in it. Can't remember what the mobo was, but I had 4 threads in 2004! Dual Xeon. Only know the date as it had a 6800 Ultra in it. Yes, that one. I actually did a swap with a friend for his 6800 GT just to get rid of the noise. Still, I think in those days, multi-thread software wasn't much of a thing as normal consumers at best had 2 threads with a P4 HT, dual core wasn't a thing yet.


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Just now, porina said:

My reference to dual socket was more about NUMA in general. I wasn't aware of talk of TR going multi-socket.

I dont think its going mutisocket either, but i think it was mentioned in one of the ryzen 3000 leaks. Which may or may not be true.

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4 minutes ago, porina said:

My reference to dual socket was more about NUMA in general. I wasn't aware of talk of TR going multi-socket.

I don't own one right now, but does windows see threadripper as 2 (or 4) NUMA nodes? o_o

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8 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

I don't own one right now, but does windows see threadripper as 2 or 4 NUMA nodes? o_o

Don't know if it answers your question or not, but two CCX comes under one NUMA node on the AM4 CPUs.


Main rig: Asus Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700k stock, Noctua D14, G.Skill Ripjaws V 3200 2x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 1650, Corsair HX750i, In Win 303 NVIDIA, Samsung SM951 512GB, WD Blue 1TB, HP LP2475W 1200p wide gamut

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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB + 480GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-8086k, i3-8350k, i7-7920X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i3-6100, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, 2x i7-4590, i5-4570S, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600, R5 2600, R7 1700

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4 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

I don't own one right now, but does windows see threadripper as 2 (or 4) NUMA nodes? o_o

Depends on the model. All TR WX CPUs operate in exclusive NUMA mode, the smaller core count ones can operate in UMA mode or NUMA mode and you can change it. So for the ones that can operate in NUMA mode you will either have 2 NUMA nodes or 4 NUMA nodes and that is based off the number of active dies, WX = 4 and non WX = 2.

 

taskmanager.png

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1 minute ago, porina said:

Don't know if it answers your question or not, but two CCX comes under one NUMA node on the AM4 CPUs.

oh yeah it does, but I think I misread your earlier comment ,_, sorry thanks

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32 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

I don't own one right now, but does windows see threadripper as 2 (or 4) NUMA nodes? o_o

 

23 minutes ago, porina said:

Don't know if it answers your question or not, but two CCX comes under one NUMA node on the AM4 CPUs.

 

It's important to remember NUMA and UMA are all about memory not actually about CPU cores or even specifically sockets. Wherever there is a memory controller with memory attached to it that is a NUMA node or more correctly could be one, Edit: in relation to the CPU.

 

UMA = Uniform Memory Access

NUMA = Non Uniform Memory Access

 

NUMA allows the OS and other sub systems to know which memory regions are local or closest to which CPU/Cores/Socket and place memory pages in optimal locations.

 

In the good/bad old days of North Bridge and South Bridge with Front Side Buses controlling the memory multi socket systems were still a single NUMA node or UMA. All CPUs connected to the FSB and had equal access to memory, equal congested slow high latency access. On die memory controllers actually introduced the NUMA problem, fix one problem create another.

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5 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

would be kinda funny if Microsoft never fixed this and it would be the end of windows as it cant handle the thread war going forward. 

 

even funnier, AMD did an isekai comeback and toppled a huge company by the use of an unknown weakness that noone were expecting. 

I would love that so much. I really just want windows to be phased out for Linux(I say as I keep using Windows 10 lol) 


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5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It's important to remember NUMA and UMA are all about memory not actually about CPU cores or even specifically sockets. Wherever there is a memory controller with memory attached to it that is a NUMA node or more correctly could be one.

Maybe it was what @VegetableStu was getting at, is the 4 die TR 2 or 4 NUMA nodes assuming it is operating in NUMA mode? Two memory controllers dies, two without. 

 

I think we got into a discussion in another thread how the memory was attached to a Ryzen die, one per CCX, or two shares between 2 CCX. Looking forward to Rome, is that a single NUMA node regardless of the chiplets? That doesn't exclude the possibility, even necessity, that software may want to be aware of the chiplet structure, but that's kinda separate.


Main rig: Asus Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700k stock, Noctua D14, G.Skill Ripjaws V 3200 2x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 1650, Corsair HX750i, In Win 303 NVIDIA, Samsung SM951 512GB, WD Blue 1TB, HP LP2475W 1200p wide gamut

Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance LPX RGB 3000 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, Corsair 600C, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 3600, Noctua D9L, G.SKill TridentZ 3000C14 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, WD Green 240GB SSD, LG OLED55B9PLA

VR rig: Asus Z170I Pro Gaming, i7-6700T stock, Scythe Kozuti, Kingston Hyper-X 2666 2x8GB, Zotac 1070 FE, Corsair CX450M, Silverstone SG13, Samsung PM951 256GB, Crucial BX500 1TB, HTC Vive

Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB + 480GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-8086k, i3-8350k, i7-7920X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i3-6100, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, 2x i7-4590, i5-4570S, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600, R5 2600, R7 1700

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