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Windows To Blame For Poor AMD ThreadRipper Performance

BuckGup
By BuckGup
in Tech News
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Wendell over at Level1Techs has been slaving away for the past couple of months trying to determine why the new 32 cores threadripper CPUs actually perform worse than the older 16 core versions in certain workloads. Well it appears he and Ian Cutress have found the culprit. Many blamed the gimped amount of memory channels starving the 4 physical dies but testing with the EPYC counterpart, which has 2 channel access to each dye, shows no performance difference. Here is a video of him explaining how they found it and a theoretical fix for windows in the mean time. Linux on the other hand has no issue and is over 100% faster.

 

Comparison between 7551 and 2990WX in Windows and Linux

595419027_wowendell.PNG.8a2dcea2e44c62acae42c5efea29cb90.PNG

 

As you can see there is a big issue in windows

wowowowdadsfds.PNG.951b10846d2df420798d9489c92ff4cc.PNG

 

Here are links to the sources

https://level1techs.com/article/unlocking-2990wx-less-numa-aware-apps

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=2990wx-linux-windows&num=1

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13446/the-quiz-on-cpu-0-playing-scheduler-wars-with-amds-threadripper-2990wx

 

I would be interested to hear from @King Poet and others on the forum who have the 2990WX and see what kind of performance differences they see when they run the CorePrio fix.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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5 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

I thought this was established already when it came out that 2990WX benchmarks under Linux painted a brighter picture for the CPU?

Right but the cause was unknown

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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7 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Ohhh, alright. That would make a bit more sense, why it acts like this.

yea it was known Windows crapped out on that cpu... now we know why :) 

She/Her

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Posted

I wonder if Microsoft will even bother fixing this.

CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700x / GPU: Asus Radeon RX 6750XT OC 12GB / RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 2x8GB DDR4-3200
MOBO: MSI B450m Gaming Plus / NVME: Corsair MP510 240GB / Case: TT Core v21 / PSU: Seasonic 750W / OS: Win 10 Pro

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6 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

I wonder if Microsoft will even bother fixing this.

Yeah probably not

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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6 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

I wonder if Microsoft will even bother fixing this.

Probably since it likely effects quad socket Intel systems too and if EPYC2 is as good as hoped there would be enough people demanding it be fixed, so long as they know about it needing to be fixed of course.

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For those that don't watch the whole video, Windows is burning nearly half of the max processing power of a 32c CPU on the Scheduler moving stuff around. Further, it appears the issue stems from a previous Node Overflow bug fix in windows. It looks like someone at MS hacked up a solution to NUMA Nodes for the Windows Scheduler some time back and Threadripper brought enough threads to the party to make it noticeable.

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39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Probably since it likely effects quad socket Intel systems too and if EPYC2 is as good as hoped there would be enough people demanding it be fixed, so long as they know about it needing to be fixed of course.

Yeah the demand is way higher than I thought. Here's another one

https://news.hpe.com/high-performance-computing-center-stuttgart-and-hewlett-packard-enterprise-collaborate-to-build-worlds-fastest-supercomputer-for-industrial-production/

 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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13 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

For those that don't watch the whole video, Windows is burning nearly half of the max processing power of a 32c CPU on the Scheduler moving stuff around. Further, it appears the issue stems from a previous Node Overflow bug fix in windows. It looks like someone at MS hacked up a solution to NUMA Nodes for the Windows Scheduler some time back and Threadripper brought enough threads to the party to make it noticeable.

Aka lazy programming that someone thought we would never have 32 cores and 64 threads on a consumer PC. They should test in windows server

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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4 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Aka lazy programming that someone thought we would never have 32 cores and 64 threads on a consumer PC. They should test in windows server

I'm guessing it was a hack-patch from the Vista days. Nehalem had 8c/16t server parts, so they'd have had some sort of patch back then for Server 2003.

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2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

For those that don't watch the whole video, Windows is burning nearly half of the max processing power of a 32c CPU on the Scheduler moving stuff around. Further, it appears the issue stems from a previous Node Overflow bug fix in windows. It looks like someone at MS hacked up a solution to NUMA Nodes for the Windows Scheduler some time back and Threadripper brought enough threads to the party to make it noticeable.

Your post is similar to a thought I was having,

 

I'm not a coding/software type enthusiast, but Since the start of this thread I've had a concept in my head about this that I can't quite articulate with specifics.  To me it appears  TR and Epyc have, through their sheer size, unearthed an issue within windows.  It is clear from the number of people that thought it had to do with memory etc that the actual cause was not easily apparent.   The golden rule is still, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  And therefore if you don't see an issue then there is nothing further to do.  I understand that some jobs are hacked together, but it seems a little unfair to the engineers responsible to call them Lazy or hacks ( as people on these forums are frequently guilty of)  if this was done in vista days but didn't present as an issue until 32 core processors became a thing recently.

 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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would be kinda funny if Microsoft never fixed this and it would be the end of windows as it cant handle the thread war going forward. 

 

even funnier, AMD did an isekai comeback and toppled a huge company by the use of an unknown weakness that noone were expecting. 

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53 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Your post is similar to a thought I was having,

 

I'm not a coding/software type enthusiast, but Since the start of this thread I've had a concept in my head about this that I can't quite articulate with specifics.  To me it appears  TR and Epyc have, through their sheer size, unearthed an issue within windows.  It is clear from the number of people that thought it had to do with memory etc that the actual cause was not easily apparent.   The golden rule is still, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  And therefore if you don't see an issue then there is nothing further to do.  I understand that some jobs are hacked together, but it seems a little unfair to the engineers responsible to call them Lazy or hacks ( as people on these forums are frequently guilty of)  if this was done in vista days but didn't present as an issue until 32 core processors became a thing recently.

 

 

We've known since the Launch Day testing results it was a Windows problem. Phoronix's first results proved it, we just didn't know what. 

 

The other issue is that from the Launch of Ryzen 1st gen, MS rushed out several scheduler updates to Windows to handle Ryzen. (Along with Nvidia for their drivers, plus a lot of game patches.) So the Windows Scheduler issues have been known for a while, so this isn't too surprising.  However, this one turned out to be a lot more complex than what happened originally.

 

As for being a hack to handle the first node overrun? Well, Windows Server, in theory, should be able to handle a 4 Node system, so it's still strange. Though what it looks like is they probably hacked a solution up rather than rebuild the design of part of the scheduler, thus it can't scale out very effectively. Questionable decision seeing as they were already up to 8c/16t Server parts by the late 2000s. If the system was going to break with more than 2 NUMA nodes, it really should have been changed somewhere in the last decade, at least for Windows Server.

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10 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

would be kinda funny if Microsoft never fixed this and it would be the end of windows as it cant handle the thread war going forward. 

 

even funnier, AMD did an isekai comeback and toppled a huge company by the use of an unknown weakness that noone were expecting. 

16 threads on Ryzen broke a lot of even modern games & programs. It's kind of just interesting in hindsight, but Intel was still bringing at least 12 cores to HEDT in 2017. That would have broken a lot of programs if Ryzen hadn't launched earlier. (How's that for funny? One of Intel's worst product Launches would have been worse but for AMD getting there first.)

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2 hours ago, mr moose said:

'm not a coding/software type enthusiast, but Since the start of this thread I've had a concept in my head about this that I can't quite articulate with specifics.  To me it appears  TR and Epyc have, through their sheer size, unearthed an issue within windows.  It is clear from the number of people that thought it had to do with memory etc that the actual cause was not easily apparent.   The golden rule is still, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  And therefore if you don't see an issue then there is nothing further to do.  I understand that some jobs are hacked together, but it seems a little unfair to the engineers responsible to call them Lazy or hacks ( as people on these forums are frequently guilty of)  if this was done in vista days but didn't present as an issue until 32 core processors became a thing recently.

Yep.
With any sort of design, be it software, physical, concept exc, there will be some kinda fault or limitation that wont be realized till you scale up/down to a certain level.
With Leap years, just having an extra day every 4 years, will cause calendar drift of 1 day every 128 years, which is why the Gregorian calendar added some sub-clauses like: If the year is a multiple of 100, you skip that leap year, unless it is also a multiple of 400 (which is why 2000 was a leap year).
This system still has problems since it has 1 day drift every 3216 years... but I doubt we are gonna fix it before the year 3000.

Back to Windows: I do wonder if there is some engineer out there who knew about this.
I can imagine someone coding something back in like 2006 thinking it will be rewritten long before 32/64 thread CPUs are a thing, and it just didn't... and everyone forgot about it.
I haven't worked on anything beyond indie projects, but Ive certainly seen plenty of times... 'Jerry rigged' code that meant to just make something work today, and be replaced by something proper tomorrow, never get replaced. Sometimes its because whoever wrote it left the project before they could replace it (so nobody ever knew about it), or everyone just forgot about it. Because it didn't cause any issues till now, nobody ever did anything about it. exc.
 

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2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Well, Windows Server, in theory, should be able to handle a 4 Node system, so it's still strange. Though what it looks like is they probably hacked a solution up rather than rebuild the design of part of the scheduler, thus it can't scale out very effectively.

Wouldn't actually be any different, Windows Kernel and Scheduler is common across all editions of Windows. Differences with Windows Server are all upstream of the Kernel, though may be running an older or newer Kernel version but Microsoft doesn't have a big fork between desktop and server. That's why any application, driver, hardware or what ever else can work on either and you can even take across dll's from one to the other for even some rather low level stuff and still be fine.

 

Windows is Windows, sometimes it just wears a different dress.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Wouldn't actually be any different, Windows Kernel and Scheduler is common across all editions of Windows. Differences with Windows Server are all upstream of the Kernel, though may be running an older or newer Kernel version but Microsoft doesn't have a big fork between desktop and server. That's why any application, driver, hardware or what ever else can work on either and you can even take across dll's from one to the other for even some rather low level stuff and still be fine.

 

Windows is Windows, sometimes it just wears a different dress.

Which is why it seems strange. Some slight scheduler version differences for a NUMA-aware version of Windows would make sense, but it really seems like 4 psuedo-NUMA nodes is the limit to the scheduler and it freaks out if you go beyond that. (TR1 is 4 pseudo-Nodes and 2 real Nodes; TR2 -WX are 8 pseudo/4 real.) Though maybe what this actually points to is how MS fixed the Ryzen issues and the Scheduler just cannot handle more than 4 Nodes.

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14 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Which is why it seems strange. Some slight scheduler version differences for a NUMA-aware version of Windows would make sense, but it really seems like 4 psuedo-NUMA nodes is the limit to the scheduler and it freaks out if you go beyond that. (TR1 is 4 pseudo-Nodes and 2 real Nodes; TR2 -WX are 8 pseudo/4 real.) Though maybe what this actually points to is how MS fixed the Ryzen issues and the Scheduler just cannot handle more than 4 Nodes.

A lot of the quad socket systems get used on specialized software that get optimized extremely well or do their own scheduling. Microsoft SQL Server is one that is commonly used on quad socket and it is one of Microsoft's most highly optimized software and has a lot of logic in it to handle thread allocation itself, likely just won't encounter this bug in MSSQL Server or similar applications.

 

Being that over 80% of the server market is dual socket the potential user base that would encounter it is small, then you have to factor in they are most likely using a hypervisor that does that actual real CPU thread scheduling that may in fact fix the issue in itself. Wendell should run up both a KVM install and an ESXi install and do the same testing again to see if issue is present in either running a Windows VM with all cores assigned to it.

 

Edit:

Also Windows knows when it is virtualized and acts different than on a physical bare metal install.

image.png.9496ec799f9e37e9570cef6188f9a740.png

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4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

A lot of the quad socket systems get used on specialized software that get optimized extremely well or do their own scheduling. Microsoft SQL Server is one that is commonly used on quad socket and it is one of Microsoft's most highly optimized software and has a lot of logical in it to handle thread allocation itself, would just won't encounter this bug in MSSQL Server or similar applications.

 

Being that over 80% of the server market is dual socket the potential user base that would encounter it is small, then you have to factor in they are most likely using a hypervisor that does that actual real CPU thread scheduling that may in fact fix the issue in itself. Wendell should rum up both a KVM install and an ESXi install and do the same testing again to see if issue is present in either running a Windows VM with all cores assigned to it.

Deep in the video, he runs a Windows in Linux setup and runs Indigo again. Numbers are roughly the same as a real Windows in control. (That's the "Indigo in WSL" & ~1.55 line in the graphics box in the thread start.) Wendel goes into the details, but it's not that the scheduler isn't aware of the NUMA nodes. When the threads are generated, the system spawns a suggested Thread list. It appears the first problem actually start after 16 threads, but the scheduler has a spillover effect and can handle another 16 threads. 

 

Actually, I think I just figured out much of what is going on. MS, to solve the Ryzen issues, just treats each CCX as a NUMA Node. With TR1, the scheduler patch just gave a near & far designation approach. TR2 -WX models end up being 16 NUMA Nodes and the Scheduler just can't handle going beyond 8 Nodes.

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4 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Deep in the video, he runs a Windows in Linux setup and runs Indigo again. Numbers are roughly the same as a real Windows in control. (That's the "Indigo in WSL" & ~1.55 line in the graphics box in the thread start.) Wendel goes into the details, but it's not that the scheduler isn't aware of the NUMA nodes. When the threads are generated, the system spawns a suggested Thread list. It appears the first problem actually start after 16 threads, but the scheduler has a spillover effect and can handle another 16 threads. 

 

Actually, I think I just figured out much of what is going on. MS, to solve the Ryzen issues, just treats each CCX as a NUMA Node. With TR1, the scheduler patch just gave a near & far designation approach. TR2 -WX models end up being 16 NUMA Nodes and the Scheduler just can't handle going beyond 8 Nodes.

True though I'd still like to see a full VM and on ESXi as well because of the different scheduling methods in hypervisors and I'm not sure Windows in Linux is actually anything like Windows inside a VM detecting that it is in a VM.

 

I'm not actually expecting to see a difference but I think that kind of test is worth it.

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