Clicking "Check for Updates" in Windows 10 Makes You Download "Preview" Patches - Says Microsoft

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Besides, if you haven't been living under a rock you would have noticed that people are getting fed up with glitchy, rushed out, broken games too

The only reason games are broken is because Dumb fucks give these companies money via preorders before the game is finished. IF people would wait for the game to be released and people to review it, then companies would do their due diligence to make sure the games are done and bug free. And NO im not saying to give Microsoft a free pass, BUT Microsoft did force Windows 10 on to us. Also older versions of Windows are going away, Windows 7 has about a year of life left in it and Windows 8 will have a few more years, but Microsoft pushed so many people on to Windows 10. BUT as people bitch, they have to think about the fact there are other options. MacOS, Linux, Chrome OS to name a few. When people stop buying Microsoft's product, then they will change. However I dont see this happening any time soon. Apple products are too expensive for most people. Linux for many is to complicated or just not the experience they are looking for. Chrome OS has many limitations.  Each OS has pluses and minuses. You just have to pick the one that checks as many as the boxes you need. 

 

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I put it to people that if everyone was disciplined enough to put aside 30 minutes each weak to check for updates (security updates at the very least) check their chosen anti virus is still working properly and run a malware scan, then MS would likely not have forced updates.

My aunt turns her computer off after she is done using it. I told her its safe to leave it on, or just put it in to sleep mode. I had to convince her to turn her machine on at least on Tuesdays for patch Tuesday. Plus as I was stating earlier, most users dont know how to check for updates or how to run a virus scan, they expect it to just do it on its own. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Apple products are too expensive for most people.

unless you buy them used... you can get pretty good MacBook's for €500 which are better in most aspects than windows laptops for that price... 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i've never minded updates, as long as they don't bug me to restart. in macOS, i can tell it to 'remind me tonight' which is really nice, because if i go to bed i can turn it off. otherwise i have way too much stuff open to be bothered to reboot it. 

I think many people agree,  Win 10 will ask you if you want to postpone the restart.  I have updates set to recommended and have a regular power cycle (I turn off the pc at night) very rarely do I get caught with waiting for an update to finish or have an annoying pop asking me to restart or postpone the install.

 

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

 

 

My aunt turns her computer off after she is done using it. I told her its safe to leave it on, or just put it in to sleep mode. I had to convince her to turn her machine on at least on Tuesdays for patch Tuesday. Plus as I was stating earlier, most users dont know how to check for updates or how to run a virus scan, they expect it to just do it on its own. 

Which is why having an automated update systems is so important.  The system doesn't have to be on on Tuesday though, once the update is available it will download it when it is on and install it on the next shutdown.    But at the same time as soon as you give someone the option to turn it off, they do and then they have all the issues that come with a system that is not upto date.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

I think many people agree,  Win 10 will ask you if you want to postpone the restart.  I have updates set to recommended and have a regular power cycle (I turn off the pc at night) very rarely do I get caught with waiting for an update to finish or have an annoying pop asking me to restart or postpone the install.

i have. a few times. or it will begin talking crap about the active hours thing... which i hate. i don't have a regular power cycle. my pc is on for days sometimes... and i have had it reboot on me once if i remember correctly... i could be wrong though...

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i have. a few times. or it will begin talking crap about the active hours thing... which i hate. i don't have a regular power cycle. my pc is on for days sometimes... and i have had it reboot on me once if i remember correctly... i could be wrong though...

I hear this a lot,  For the majority of users the average desktop is not in use 24/7 though, most do have a regular shutdown period.   If you are working on a pc that needs to be always on, then you should have either an OS setup for those needs or a network admin controlling the updates.  

 

It comes back to what we said before about us tech enthusiast being the insignificant users whose wants/needs are rare.  Majority of users turn off daily and and need automatic updates.  

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

All I can say, is that you probably like the Control Panel more because that is what you are used to. But if you give the new Settings an honest try, and try and learn it, I think you'll discover that you'll quickly end up not using the old panel anymore, or at worst, absolute rarely.

I sometimes wonder if you even use Windows 10, because your experience seems to be completely different from reality.

Half the stuff I do on a regular basis does can not be done in the new settings menu. Here are 10 examples:

1) Change your IP, or any of the network adapter settings.

2) Uninstall certain older applications. For example, if you try to uninstall Firefox 3.6 in the new settings menu, it will fail (or at least it has never worked for me), but it does work in the old control panel.

3) Change UAC notification frequency (there is a link to it, but it goes to the old prompt you get from the control panel).

4) Change firewall settings such as opening a port.

5) Change some of the more granular power options (you can only change auto sleep, and turning off the display after a certain time of inactivity in settings).

6) Bitlocker options are not implemented at all in settings.

7) Storage space options are not implemented either.

8 ) You can not view or change saved credentials.

9) Can't add network printers from a print server (if you click on the "add printer" button in Settings, it will try and find all printers and list them (with no search function, and not listed in alphabetical order). Not just that, but it won't find printers which are being shared from another Windows computer either. Only the printer settings in the control panel allows you to type in a server name, and the specific printer you want to map.

10) Can't manage Outlook profiles.

 

Then there are a few more obscure things such as changing environmental variables, but I don't do that on a weekly or even monthly basis so I won't mention that. Plus, you can do that from cmd.

But the 10 things I listed above are very basic things. Just saying "it will get added later" is no excuse for not having basic things implemented in something released over 3 years ago.

 

 

And on top of that you have the things @dalekphalm mentioned, like not being able to have 2 windows open at the same time. I have no idea how Microsoft thought that was acceptable. But I think that's because Microsoft tried to turn peoples' PCs into phones where you only have 1 program open at once.

Fun fact, it was not possible to code a UWP program to support running two instances at once until earlier this year. It was not until update 1803 that they added support for running two instances of the same UWP program.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

They have, it is called Settings panel. You also have more options there then in the Control Panel. 

Microsoft is very close to have everything in the Settings panel.

Quotes like this makes me seriously question if you even use Windows 10. No, Microsoft is very, very far from having everything in the settings panel.

I could list 10 basic things I do a daily, weekly or monthly basis that are not implemented. If we start listing the more obscure things some people need access to then I would not be surprised if there are maybe 50-100 things missing in Settings.

Settings is at best a dumped down version of the control panel which lets you change things like the color of the title bar, but barely anything more advanced than that.

I wouldn't even say Microsoft are very close to having all the BASIC settings implemented in Settings yet. Much less all the advanced things.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

I hear this a lot,  For the majority of users the average desktop is not in use 24/7 though, most do have a regular shutdown period.   If you are working on a pc that needs to be always on, then you should have either an OS setup for those needs or a network admin controlling the updates.  

 

It comes back to what we said before about us tech enthusiast being the insignificant users whose wants/needs are rare.  Majority of users turn off daily and and need automatic updates.  

sure but leaving a pc on for 48 hours before rebooting it isn't that much to ask right? 

 

and by the way, Windows is the ONLY OS that forces reboots. Linux obviously doesn't, and macOS will give you 1 notification a day but it won't force a restart. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Fun fact, it was not possible to code a UWP program to support running two instances at once until earlier this year. It was not until update 1803 that they added support for running two instances of the same UWP program.

really? damn... how would that work with Edge though? because if i look in task manager i'll always have like a million chrome processes open... how does Edge do that? 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

sure but leaving a pc on for 48 hours before rebooting it isn't that much to ask right? 

I don't know, apparently for some it is.  I haven't had that issue yet.  My mate leaves his on all the time and he hasn't done anything to the system.  It just restarts At 3am once a month if necessary.

 

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

and by the way, Windows is the ONLY OS that forces reboots. Linux obviously doesn't, and macOS will give you 1 notification a day but it won't force a restart. 

 

 

Windows is a different OS to the others. Just because one can do it doesn't mean the others should be able to.   Linux and Mac evolved from the same/Similar Unix Kernel. Although many argue Mzc is about as related to Unix as windows is to dos, however that being said, it is my understanding windows didn't start with any of the foundations required to be able to apply Kernel updates on the fly.    Different systems have different requirements, MS have to work within the confines of the OS's abilities.

[LAwLz]

Just now, firelighter487 said:

really? damn... how would that work with Edge though? because if i look in task manager i'll always have like a million chrome processes open... how does Edge do that? 

Microsoft has access to special privileges for the UWP programs they write themselves. So they made special exceptions or coded around the limitations for Edge as well as the calculator.

Quote

Multi-instance support has already been supported for some time in specific Microsoft UWP apps, including Calculator and OneNote. However, expanding the option to all developers will tackle one of the more frustrating issues with using UWP apps over their desktop counterparts.

 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Windows is a different OS to the others. Just because one can do it doesn't mean the others should be able to.   Linux and Mac evolved from the same/Similar Unix Kernel. Although many argue Mzc is about as related to Unix as windows is to dos, however that being said, it is my understanding windows didn't start with any of the foundations required to be able to apply Kernel updates on the fly.    Different systems have different requirements, MS have to work within the confines of the OS's abilities.

you have to reboot a Mac to apply most security updates. in that regard it's similar to Windows. however if it updates, it won't force a restart. that's the difference. 

 

in fact you have to reboot Linux machiens too... for kernel updates anyway.. unless you have a system in place that can patch it while it's on... but i believe that's an enterprise feature.. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

you have to reboot a Mac to apply most security updates. in that regard it's similar to Windows. however if it updates, it won't force a restart. that's the difference. 

 

in fact you have to reboot Linux machiens too... for kernel updates anyway.. unless you have a system in place that can patch it while it's on... but i believe that's an enterprise feature.. 

 

I was under the impression Linux could update the Kernel on the fly.  Windows only requires restarts for certain updates.  I can't even remember the last time I had to postpone a restart in windows.  It may haven even been the 1803 upgrade.  

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I was under the impression Linux could update the Kernel on the fly. 

it can though systems like https://www.ubuntu.com/livepatch but those are paid services... 

 

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Windows only requires restarts for certain updates.

same for macOS...

[LAwLz]

49 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's because no one does,  Updates for most users are an annoying, irritating service that breaks some things stops people from watching videos of cats.  It is also not fun like playing a game so they will play their game instead of running updates.

 

I put it to people that if everyone was disciplined enough to put aside 30 minutes each weak to check for updates (security updates at the very least) check their chosen anti virus is still working properly and run a malware scan, then MS would likely not have forced updates.

If Microsoft had designed Windows properly then it would not be an issue.

The reason why people don't want to update are:

1) It requires them to restart their computer, interrupts their use, or it makes shutting down/starting up slower. This is not an issue on OSes which do not require restarts for applying patches, for example a lot of GNU/Linux based distros. If Microsoft had designed Windows properly, this would not be an issue.

2) A lot of people get confused when things change, for example the look of a menu changes. Microsoft has changed the look of things in Windows 10 several times now. If they had sat down and thought things through a bit more before pushing it out, maybe they wouldn't have had to change the look of some menu 3 times in 3 years.

3) It creates compatibility issues. It is quite amazing at how many compatibility issues Windows 10 has created. Even some applications break from rather simple, semiannually updates. Nowadays Microsoft has to maintain a massive list of white and black listed applications, as well as constantly check which programs users has installed just to make sure they can push out a specific update to a specific computer without causing issues. They never had to do this with previous Windows versions, and it seems like we had fewer issues too, somehow.

 

4) Now it is also revealed that checking for updates apparently opts you in to receiving preview updates which aren't being rolled out to the mass market yet. So now I feel like I need to avoid checking for updates because I run the risk of downloading unstable updates if I do.

 

 

My point is that the reasons why people don't put aside 30 minutes to keep up to date are all because of things Microsoft have done or are doing. They could fix these things. Some other OSes do not have these issues. Microsoft is a company and because of that they exist to service their customers. It is not the customers' responsibility to adapt their usage to suit the desires of the company they are paying.

[Drak3]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Windows only requires restarts for certain updates.

OSX is far worse in this regard. I don't think I've had an update to OSX or Safari that didn't require an update. I've also went through some of the settings you're required to go through during initial setup something like 3-4 times in the year I've owned my MacBook Pro. I haven't had to do that with Windows.

[GoodBytes]

4 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Truthful I dont think Microsoft really knows the path they are trying to take.

I agree with everything you said before. Just that I think MS knows what they are doing, the thing is that what was planned on paper didn't turn out to be as on paper, and the market changed as well, requiring reworks.

 

4 hours ago, Donut417 said:

They defiantly want ARM devices, as they have tried with them many times. They also know they need a GUI that is touch friendly. I really think the reason they havent replace the Control Panel yet is because they are not exactly sure how they are going to accomplish what they need to do.

They haven't removed the Control Panel, because many things made on it are legacy code made by people that no longer work at the company, and I recall reading that Microsoft early days didn't pay much attention to documentation. So, you have little, or poorly made ones, or incomplete or just simply nothing. So it adds a lot delays.

 

4 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Furthermore, I think Microsoft really wants to lock Windows down like iOS and to a lesser extent Android is, where you have to purchase off their store.

Actually, that is not true. Media is rushing to conclusions. What Microsoft is doing is offering a platform for developers to have a distribution platform, with an integrated update system, DRM layer, with included purchase system with generated reports and all that... basically a Steam like service but for apps for Windows. And that is the Store.

 

As for the "S Modes" variant, well, so far, it is a free/discount (unclear) version of Window 10, where you can only use the Store to get any type of apps you want (marketed as secure and easy).

 

Of course, Microsoft goal is to push people to use the Store. Like Android and Apple store, it is a source of revenue for the company, and because they doing this "service" things, where you have continuous updates, well, money needs to come in somehow. PC sales are going down which doesn't help. More and more people don't use a PC anymore, they just use their phone.

 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

OSX is far worse in this regard. I don't think I've had an update to OSX or Safari that didn't require an update. I've also went through some of the settings you're required to go through during initial setup something like 3-4 times in the year I've owned my MacBook Pro. I haven't had to do that with Windows.

...? yes you have to reboot Mac's, but it doesn't force you to. i also (i believe anyway) didn't have to reboot for Safari updates... 

 

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

Actually, that is not true. Media is rushing to conclusions. What Microsoft is doing is offering a platform for developers to have a distribution platform, with an integrated update system, DRM layer, with included purchase system with generated reports and all that... basically a Steam like service but for apps for Windows. And that is the Store.

 

As for the "S Modes" variant, well, so far, it is a free/discount (unclear) version of Window 10, where you can only use the Store to get any type of apps you want (marketed as secure and easy).

 

Of course, Microsoft goal is to push people to use the Store. Like Android and Apple store, it is a source of revenue for the company, and because they doing this "service" things, where you have continuous updates, well, money needs to come in somehow. PC sales are going down which doesn't help. More and more people don't use a PC anymore, they just use their phone.

 

bullcrap! those S versions are a disaster! they don't allow other browsers on there for F sake! yes Apple has an App Store on macOS, and yes you can set it to only allow apps to be installed from the App Store. that is a SETTING!!!! not an entirely different version of the OS!

[Drak3]

Just now, firelighter487 said:

but it doesn't force you to

I don't view Windows 10's update system to be automatically bad. I actually think the version implemented in the pro version is the best system yet of all platforms, with my only problem with it being the "check for updates" debacle.

 

3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i also (i believe anyway) didn't have to reboot for Safari updates... 

Every Safari update I've ever received required a reboot, including the 12.0.2 update I just installed.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

Just now, Drak3 said:

I don't view Windows 10's update system to be automatically bad. I actually think the version implemented in the pro version is the best system yet of all platforms, with my only problem with it being the "check for updates" debacle.

the problem with that is that Pro is MUCH more expensive than Home... 

 

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Every Safari update I've ever received required a reboot, including the 12.0.2 update I just installed.

it would make a bit of sense, as i imagine Safari is integrated into the OS... probably with Siri and stuff. still, it won't force you to reboot. 

[Drak3]

Just now, firelighter487 said:

the problem with that is that Pro is MUCH more expensive than Home... 

Not really. The only "issue" is that the prebuilts at Walmart and BestBuy typically ship with Home, but honestly, the limitations of home aren't causing that many issues with new prebuilts.

 

3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

it would make a bit of sense, as i imagine Safari is integrated into the OS... probably with Siri and stuff.

OSX is the only OS I've seen require this level of Update > Reboot. Linux and Windows only require it when the update has an effect on components required to run.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Not really. The only "issue" is that the prebuilts at Walmart and BestBuy typically ship with Home, but honestly, the limitations of home aren't causing that many issues with new prebuilts.

well it is an issue... you shouldn't have to buy Pro just to get a good update model. 

 

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

OSX is the only OS I've seen require this level of Update > Reboot. Linux and Windows only require it when the update has an effect on components required to run.

updates on macOS are much less frequent though in my experience.. 

[Blademaster91]

11 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

...? yes you have to reboot Mac's, but it doesn't force you to. i also (i believe anyway) didn't have to reboot for Safari updates... 

 

bullcrap! those S versions are a disaster! they don't allow other browsers on there for F sake! yes Apple has an App Store on macOS, and yes you can set it to only allow apps to be installed from the App Store. that is a SETTING!!!! not an entirely different version of the OS!

I'm not sure why Windows 10 S is a thing either, but its usually free to get the home version upgrade.

This checking for updates thing is ridiculous though,I click the check for updates button to see if i need to update, MS needs to at least make it clear that it puts me in the queue for preview patches and let me opt out of it.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

You keep saying this, but so far it seems like the overwhelming majority of people I have heard and spoken to completely disagrees.

Vocal minority are a minority. Power users tend to complain about change.

We have seen this time and time again:

• Office ribbon bar
• Windows XP start menu
• Vista Start Menu
• Windows 7 taskbar
• Windows XP look
• Windows Vista search (YES, people wanted the animated dog)
• Control Panel groups

and so much more...

And in each cases, people just panic because it is different, because they are afraid of getting millions of calls for the basic things... but it turns out that people got used to it, and, in many cases, likes it. (reminds me, I recall reading someone here complaining about Windows 10 (but was introduced in Windows Task Manager, and wanted the old one)

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Businesses certainly don't want it, which is why Microsoft and bending over backwards with their update policy for enterprise. "Enthusiasts" don't seem to want it, because there is a quite large amount of guides on how to disable automatic updates and they even included a "defer updates" option in the pro version.

Businesses needs to adapt. Businesses are slow. Granted Microsoft new model was drastically too different for something that was established for years on end. So they pulled back. My work PC doesn't have 1809 if you wonder. The company is still evaluating it, last I asked (and I talked to the IT guys, and he has no idea of any reported issues of 1809 that was reported here, so it isn't that, if you wonder).

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

I strongly disagree with the "does it look complete for most users" point. I think most people will run into several instances of a jarring, bright white window popping up when running in the dark mode. It makes it look half-assed, like Microsoft is rushing out unfinished products and as a result their customer experience is dropping like a rock.

I agree. I think Microsoft is rushing things a bit too quickly, and rely too much on "we will fix it after, the deadline must be meat". But looking at how the next version of Windows 10, I don't want to jinx it, but so far, it looks like the company is pulling a back a bit, and taking their time. I expect the coming version to be mostly polishes with a sprinkle of new little features here and there, instead of anything really major. But, we will see. Next week, they might release a crap ton of new stuff and prove me wrong.. so I don't want to bring any hopes up. But so far so good.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Their OS is just becoming more and more of a mess, with features that are only half-working comping out with every update.

All the features works. Do you have any example of something released that doesn't work?

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Stop giving Microsoft free passes because "others are bad too". Besides, if you haven't been living under a rock you would have noticed that people are getting fed up with glitchy, rushed out, broken games too. Look at Fallout 76 for one of the latest examples.

People are indeed waking up and asking for polish and bugs fixes instead of new features. We saw Apple change their direction, and maybe Microsoft too, we will see.

 

 

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

well it is an issue... you shouldn't have to buy Pro just to get a good update model.

Aside from the "check for updates" debacle, the home model is a good update model for the average consumer. It's only not good for enthusiasts.

 

3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

updates on macOS are much less frequent though in my experience.. 

There's at least 1 new update every week. And half of them are so annoying that I just put them off until I can do 3-6 at once.

 

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Do you have any example of something released that doesn't work?

The Mixed Reality portal was pretty borked when it first came out.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

All the features works. Do you have any example of something released that doesn't work?

yes they 'work' only full of bugs... 

 

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

There's at least 1 new update every week. And half of them are so annoying that I just put them off until I can do 3-6 at once.

what version of macOS are you running?