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Clicking "Check for Updates" in Windows 10 Makes You Download "Preview" Patches - Says Microsoft

LAwLz
1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Well depending what Im doing network wise I open the cmd prompt, because Im old school like that. 

that's not the point. Linux has a load of GUI package managers but i always use the terminal because i prefer it. 

 

the point is that a gui should be consistent and be logically laid out. Windows's isn't.

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22 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

that's not the point. Linux has a load of GUI package managers but i always use the terminal because i prefer it. 

 

the point is that a gui should be consistent and be logically laid out. Windows's isn't.

Thats because Microsoft is in a transitional phase. Computers are no longer just boxes, now they come in all types of shapes and sizes. Not everyone has a traditional desktop or laptop for that matter, so now Microsoft is trying to figure out how to compete with things like Android and iOS devices, who generally are fast enough for most and have awesome battery life. There are bound to be growing pains, with those of us who liked the OLD way and those who want a new innovative GUI. 

 

Truthful I dont think Microsoft really knows the path they are trying to take. They defiantly want ARM devices, as they have tried with them many times. They also know they need a GUI that is touch friendly. I really think the reason they havent replace the Control Panel yet is because they are not exactly sure how they are going to accomplish what they need to do. Furthermore, I think Microsoft really wants to lock Windows down like iOS and to a lesser extent Android is, where you have to purchase off their store. However their attempts have failed thus far. Thats another reason Microsoft doesnt have consistency, they are not sure what settings they can lock out on the user, without the user getting all pissed off. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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@Donut417 Microsoft messed up bad by trying to use the same OS on everything. Apple has seperate OS's (iOS, macOS, tvOS and watchOS) for a reason. you can't have one interface that works on everything.

 

Linux is an entirely different story. you can customize it to be as terminal or gui dependent as you want. that's also why it has succeded for so many different usecases. 

 

the point is Microsoft should stop trying to make an interface that works on everything. that will never work. they should make an OS for pc's and traditional laptops, and a seperate one for tablets. 

either that or they should make it that "tablet mode" turns all the stupid tablet stuff on, but turning it off brings back all the old control panel items etc. 

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1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

 

the point is Microsoft should stop trying to make an interface that works on everything. that will never work. they should make an OS for pc's and traditional laptops, and a seperate one for tablets.

Why?  If their market research indicates that that is what people want then why should they stop trying?  I think you are assuming because you don't like it then that must be the reason it has some issues.    It isn't.  what killed windows on tablet (RT et al) is app support/performance, not the interface.  Sure the interface upset a few people when it was used for the desktop too, but you have to understand desktop users are a shrinking demographic.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Just now, mr moose said:

Why?  If their market research indicates that that is what people want then why should they stop trying?  I think you are assuming because you don't like it then that must be the reason it has some issues.    It isn't.  what killed windows on tablet (RT et al) is app support/performance, not the interface.  Sure the interface upset a few people when it was used for the desktop too, but you have to understand desktop users are a shrinking demographic.

maybe it is because i'm used to systems without touchscreens (because macbook) but i don't see the point of making the whole OS touch-friendly when only a really small amount of people have touchscreen devices. and i do own a touchscreen Windows 10 device, and the experience is terrible. 

 

and the argument that desktop users are a shrinking demographic is not a reason to screw them over with inconsistent and (subjectively) terrible interfaces. 

 

i uderstand there are a lot of tablets out there, that people use as laptop and desktop replacements, because you can do loads of stuff on them these days, but i'm not one of them. tablet interfaces slow me down, and hinder me in loads of ways. Windows 10 does this too. i find myself noticably less productive on a Windows device compared to my MacBook or a Linux device. 

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1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

but i'm not one of them.

Yeah by its not profitable to Microsoft to market to people like you. They have to market for the largest group, thats how you make money. To be honest Microsoft gives two shits about consumers. Most of their money is most likely made on sales to Enterprise users, at least when it comes to their desktop OS. 

 

Its getting to the point where households may not have traditional desktop/laptops. Microsoft knows this very well and they have to adapt or go out of business. The issue here is Google and Apple had enough time while Microsoft gave two fucks about phones and tablets to establish their dominance in the market. Microsoft is basically playing catch up. Microsoft also knows they have to have some type of ARM device. Why? Because generally they are cheaper or at least you can get cheaper ARM device. Device like the Chromebook have an advantage because while they are simple they are very cheap. You can still do a lot on a Chromebook because at lot of stuff is on the cloud, including MS office. 

 

As far as the GUI in Windows 10 is concerned, I think they are trying to figure out how to make it easy to use and intuitive. So people like my dad who have no tech skills at all could easily use it. This is part of the reason why he owns a Chromebook, because he needed something easy to use. As I stated before the reason why Settings menu in Windows 10 is incomplete is because Microsoft is figuring out how to lock things down more. How to make thing easier for the lowest common denominator. I have over 10 years in customer service, I can tell you the IQ of the average person is -15, so they have to build things so those people can easily use them. Windows in its current form and in previous forms was difficult to use if you didn't have half a brain, which most of the population does not have. There are times when pop ups would happen and users didnt know what to hit, and or they put themselves in situations that compromised the system and its security. Microsoft is trying to end that confusion. Yes, there will be people that will be left behind that liked the old ways. Yes, Im sure Microsoft will piss a lot of people off with the changes they want to make. I might be one of them. BUT they have identified as a BUSINESS they have to change the way they are doing things. While this will be a painful experience as us users are finding out, its necessary for them as a business. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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8 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

maybe it is because i'm used to systems without touchscreens (because macbook) but i don't see the point of making the whole OS touch-friendly when only a really small amount of people have touchscreen devices. and i do own a touchscreen Windows 10 device, and the experience is terrible. 

That's just it, many more people are moving to touch screen, MS want their OS to be the same across all devices. If their market research is telling them that's what people want then that's what they'll do.

8 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

and the argument that desktop users are a shrinking demographic is not a reason to screw them over with inconsistent and (subjectively) terrible interfaces. 

They are not screwing over desktop users.  There is a huge difference between not getting the UI implementation right for some users and "screwing over" all users.  Like all products, it is not going to be the best match for everyone, but that doesn't mean we should expect them to stop trying. 

8 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i uderstand there are a lot of tablets out there, that people use as laptop and desktop replacements, because you can do loads of stuff on them these days, but i'm not one of them. tablet interfaces slow me down, and hinder me in loads of ways. Windows 10 does this too. i find myself noticably less productive on a Windows device compared to my MacBook or a Linux device. 

That's you, they slow "you" down.      If you prefer mac that's fine, but your preference isn't the same as everyone else's. 

 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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2 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

 I can tell you the IQ of the average person is -15, so they have to build things so those people can easily use them.

This is why apple is so successful in the phone business.  ?:P

 

 

 

/j don't take it to heart people.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

Device like the Chromebook have an advantage because while they are simple they are very cheap. You can still do a lot on a Chromebook because at lot of stuff is on the cloud, including MS office. 

not for long. i own a chromebook, and currently (on the dev channel) you can get Linux programs working quite easily, enableling everything from gimp to firefox to run (i used those as an example because i got them to work) and once they develop a nice gui for that chromebooks will get a lot more useful. 

 

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

As far as the GUI in Windows 10 is concerned, I think they are trying to figure out how to make it easy to use and intuitive. So people like my dad who have no tech skills at all could easily use it. This is part of the reason why he owns a Chromebook, because he needed something easy to use. As I stated before the reason why Settings menu in Windows 10 is incomplete is because Microsoft is figuring out how to lock things down more. How to make thing easier for the lowest common denominator. I have over 10 years in customer service, I can tell you the IQ of the average person is -15, so they have to build things so those people can easily use them. Windows in its current form and in previous forms was difficult to use if you didn't have half a brain, which most of the population does not have. There are times when pop ups would happen and users didnt know what to hit, and or they put themselves in situations that compromised the system and its security. Microsoft is trying to end that confusion. Yes, there will be people that will be left behind that liked the old ways. Yes, Im sure Microsoft will piss a lot of people off with the changes they want to make. I might be one of them. BUT they have identified as a BUSINESS they have to change the way they are doing things. While this will be a painful experience as us users are finding out, its necessary for them as a business. 

Windows 10 is not the way at all. i know this because my grandma complains about her laptop a lot, and basically all of her complaints could be fixed by getting something that doesn't run Windows. she complains about the popups, and a weird bug she experiences about the mail app dissapearing from the taskbar from time to time, and then she doesn't know how to find it again. 

 

i uderstand most of the population isn't tech-savy, but again that doesn't mean they have to let down advanced users. Apple nailed it in my opinion. their ecosystem is often seen as the ecosystem for people who aren't tech-savy, but it really isn't. in the case of macOS you get a good desktop and laptop friendly UI along with a system that's unix based. so you can open the terminal and use all of the commands that come along with that. 

 

10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's just it, many more people are moving to touch screen, MS want their OS to be the same across all devices. If their market research is telling them that's what people want then that's what they'll do.

what happened to options... like why can't they leave the legacy control panel as is, and make the settings app alongside it? 

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They are not screwing over desktop users.  There is a huge difference between not getting the UI implementation right for some users and "screwing over" all users.  Like all products, it is not going to be the best match for everyone, but that doesn't mean we should expect them to stop trying. 

like, who thought a touch-friendly UI for a desktop pc was a good idea? it isn't. yet they are forcing it on us. 

 

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's you, they slow "you" down.      If you prefer mac that's fine, but your preference isn't the same as everyone else's. 

i know. i admit i'm biased. it's right in my signature. 

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2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

what happened to options... like why can't they leave the legacy control panel as is, and make the settings app alongside it? 

Because as I said they are trying to unify the UI across all devices.  Again if that is what their market research is telling them that's what the consumer wants, then that is why you don't get a tired old desktop environment that serves a minority of old users and adds nothing to the rest of of us. 

 

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

like, who thought a touch-friendly UI for a desktop pc was a good idea? it isn't. yet they are forcing it on us. 

You are boxing the OS to one device again,  MS aren't going to make two operating systems just so the diminishing number of desktop users can have a UI that lacks touchscreen usability.  That makes no sense.  Again there is no reason that a desktop should become unusable just because the OS UI is touchscreen friendly.

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i know. i admit i'm biased. it's right in my signature. 

Acknowledging bias doesn't make it O.K or legitimate. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Just now, mr moose said:

Because as I said they are trying to unify the UI across all devices.  Again if that is what their market research is telling them that's what the consumer wants, then that is why you don't get a tired old desktop environment that serves a minority of old users and adds nothing to the rest of of us. 

 

You are boxing the OS to one device again,  MS aren't going to make two operating systems just so the diminishing number of desktop users can have a UI that lacks touchscreen usability.  That makes no sense.  Again there is no reason that a desktop should become unusable just because the OS UI is touchscreen friendly.

Windows's UI is annoying enough for me to invest into other platforms. it hold me back in enough ways that i can definitively notice it when i'm doing schoolwork and stuff. 

 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Acknowledging bias doesn't make it O.K or legitimate. 

 i mainly have it there so if i give advice on here or participate in discussions people know i'm biased. 

 

why is it not OK to have preferences? 

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8 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

Windows's UI is annoying enough for me to invest into other platforms. it hold me back in enough ways that i can definitively notice it when i'm doing schoolwork and stuff. 

That's great, we have established that already, but you are trying to argue that MS are somehow screwing desktop users over by making things shit for no good reason. 

8 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

 i mainly have it there so if i give advice on here or participate in discussions people know i'm biased. 

That is fine.

8 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

why is it not OK to have preferences? 

Did you read my post?

I Never said it was not OK, In fact I said the exact opposite of that, I said that is was OK to have preferences:

 

37 minutes ago, mr moose said:

   If you prefer mac that's fine, but your preference isn't the same as everyone else's. 

 

 

 

The problem here is you think your preference is evidence that everyone else is getting a shit UI without good reason. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Did you read my post?

I Never said it was not OK, In fact I said the exact opposite of that, I said that is was OK to have preferences:

yes i read it:

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Acknowledging bias doesn't make it O.K or legitimate. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

The problem here is you think your preference is evidence that everyone else is getting a shit UI without good reason. 

aren't they? what good reason is there to put a tablet UI on a desktop pc? 

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2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

yes i read it:

 

 

 

aren't they? what good reason is there to put a tablet UI on a desktop pc? 

Because:

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 If their market research indicates that that is what people want then why should they stop trying?

 

44 minutes ago, mr moose said:

many more people are moving to touch screen, MS want their OS to be the same across all devices. If their market research is telling them that's what people want then that's what they'll do.

 

 

21 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Because as I said they are trying to unify the UI across all devices.  Again if that is what their market research is telling them that's what the consumer wants, then that is why you don't get a tired old desktop environment that serves a minority of old users and adds nothing to the rest of of us. 

 

 

Really not sure how to say it any other way.  Please read what I have posted.

 

One really good reason too make one UI across all devices is becasue that is what the majority of consumers want.

 

Your prefernce, my preference, Hell even the general preference of tech enthusiasts means jack shit when bulk of consumers want something different. 

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

One really good reason too make one UI across all devices is becasue that is what the majority of consumers want.

BUT I DON'T WANT IT REEEEEE!!!!1!!!

 

on a serious note, do the majority of consumers even know? 

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23 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

Windows's UI is annoying enough for me to invest into other platforms.

Then move to a new platform. Microsoft's duty is to make sure that stock price keeps climbing for their investors. The fact is, making changes that a vast majority of their customers want is what they have to do. Your a minority when it comes to Microsoft customer base, so am I and a lot of people here. BUT they have to make the best decisions that make them money. Thats what you dont understand. They aint a soup kitchen they are a BUSINESS. They have to do what is best for the business. 

 

As you stated earlier, you feel like MacOS is done better. Then Id advise you to change to MacOS. When my laptop dies I will most likely go to MacOS or ChromeOS depending on what I want to spend at the time. While Ill most likely keep a Windows PC, its mostly going to be for gaming. 

 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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Just now, firelighter487 said:

BUT I DON'T WANT IT REEEEEE!!!!1!!!

 

on a serious note, do the majority of consumers even know? 

Some do, most probably know what they want but do nothing about it. That is why companies like MS, Apple, etc invest in market research, they need to extract that information from consumers who don't want to fill out surveys or get annoyed with popups.  This is one of the big reasons why telemetry data in windows is such a huge thing,  Instead of bugging consumers with popups and surveys and phone calls (which annoy them further), they can harvest the data that tells them how quickly an app gets shut down, how many times notepad is used, how many features in edge are popular and how often it is used to download FF.  (they also find out how many people ignore security updates).  They can estimate by the apps installed what type of user visits the control panel and what they do  on it, this is relevant data to the success of the OS.  

 

Companies can only produce the products the market tells them are wanted.  When something sells that is one indicator the product is good, when surveys are negative toward a feature that is another metric they use.  The problem with surveys is they are only filled out by a small percentage of users who are like minded.  What if the majority of consumers are not of the same opinion as those who filled out the surveys?  You get windows 8 with no start button.  MS realised this was a mistake and hanged it.

 

This is why things change, why we are seeing more and more touch screen features in every new release.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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@mr moose i'd also think that most enthousiasts turn off the telemetry... me included. so... has it become a choice of giving up all of your privacy or seeing the OS change for the worse? 

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29 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

@mr moose i'd also think that most enthousiasts turn off the telemetry... me included. so... has it become a choice of giving up all of your privacy or seeing the OS change for the worse? 

 

I would consider it to be the end result of consumer behaviour rather than a choice per se.  I honestly don't think apple or MS are interested in who you are or who you talk to, they are interested in how they can make their OS/products more attractive to you (because that = $$). As a manufacturer how do you determine what the consumer wants if they won't tell you and when you ask it is perceived as annoying?   Any other manufacturer would love to have the benefits that software has in the ability to send user data back for such determination.   

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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Just now, mr moose said:

 

I would consider it to be the end result of consumer behaviour rather than a choice per se.  I honestly don't think apple or MS are interested in who you are or who you talk to, they are interested in how they can make their OS/products more attractive to you (because that = $$). As a manufacturer how do you determine what the consumer wants if they won't tell you and when you ask it is perceived as annoying?   Any other manufacturer would love to have the benefits that software has in the ability to send user data back for such determination.   

if Apple gave me a survey i'd say keep going like this... if MS gave me one i'd say look at Apple lmao...

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1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

if Apple gave me a survey i'd say keep going like this... if MS gave me one i'd say look at Apple lmao...

Of course you would.  But most would click next and get annoyed that the survey had taken precious seconds away from viewing that youtube clip or responding to an email.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Of course you would.  But most would click next and get annoyed that the survey had taken precious seconds away from viewing that youtube clip or responding to an email.

i guess.. sadly... 

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6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

'cause it is sufficiently done, and will be improved later.

Consumers push for more frequent OS updates, with new features. The "service" model. A model that Google, Apple, the majority of open source projects (this includes Linux).

Microsoft has just adapted with the times, being last to the party.

You keep saying this, but so far it seems like the overwhelming majority of people I have heard and spoken to completely disagrees.

Businesses certainly don't want it, which is why Microsoft and bending over backwards with their update policy for enterprise. "Enthusiasts" don't seem to want it, because there is a quite large amount of guides on how to disable automatic updates and they even included a "defer updates" option in the pro version.

 

I honestly am not sure I've heard a single person say they want Microsoft to keep rushing out updates like they are right now.

Even if I heard I heard some people say it back in the Windows 7 or 8 days I have forgotten about them, I am quite certain they have changed their mind after seeing this mess.

 

 

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Does it have stability issues? No... Does it work? yes... Does it have bugs that makes the File Explorer non usable? No. Does it look complete for most users? Yes . so then it is ready.

I strongly disagree with the "does it look complete for most users" point. I think most people will run into several instances of a jarring, bright white window popping up when running in the dark mode. It makes it look half-assed, like Microsoft is rushing out unfinished products and as a result their customer experience is dropping like a rock.

Their OS is just becoming more and more of a mess, with features that are only half-working comping out with every update.

Even you said "it will be improved later". If that's their response to criticism then why release it at all? Why not hold off for a little while and release it when it is fully done? It would make Microsoft hell of a lot more professional and serious looking, rather than right now. Plenty of other people, including me, get the impression that the OS we run is a poorly hacked together mess with half baked stuff being pushed out to us.

 

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

If you go in the software world, you'll quickly realize a line of "good enough" is always drawn when releases are made, including known undisclosed bugs. I am talking about all your games, and all you software you use open source or not. The issue with software is that things are never finished, things can always be done better. So a line is drawn, and the feature will be improved in the next version. 

"Others do it too" is not an excuse.

Stop giving Microsoft free passes because "others are bad too". Besides, if you haven't been living under a rock you would have noticed that people are getting fed up with glitchy, rushed out, broken games too. Look at Fallout 76 for one of the latest examples.

Maybe people are fed up with terribly written software getting pushed out to them and want some high quality products, which I sadly can't say Windows 10 is. Hell, even your own post reads like you don't think it is. You're using "it's good enough" as an excuse for why things in Windows 10 are not working completely. Shouldn't we as consumers ask for more than "good enough"? Should "it kinda works" really be the quality standard where we are no longer allowed to complain and ask for higher quality?

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2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 

I honestly am not sure I've heard a single person say they want Microsoft to keep rushing out updates like they are right now.

Even if I heard I heard some people say it back in the Windows 7 or 8 days I have forgotten about them, I am quite certain they have changed their mind after seeing this mess.

 

 

That's because no one does,  Updates for most users are an annoying, irritating service that breaks some things stops people from watching videos of cats.  It is also not fun like playing a game so they will play their game instead of running updates.

 

I put it to people that if everyone was disciplined enough to put aside 30 minutes each weak to check for updates (security updates at the very least) check their chosen anti virus is still working properly and run a malware scan, then MS would likely not have forced updates.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That's because no one does,  Updates for most users are an annoying, irritating service that breaks some things stops people from watching videos of cats.  It is also not fun like playing a game so they will play their game instead of running updates.

 

I put it to people that if everyone was disciplined enough to put aside 30 minutes each weak to check for updates (security updates at the very least) check their chosen anti virus is still working properly and run a malware scan, then MS would likely not have forced updates.

i've never minded updates, as long as they don't bug me to restart. in macOS, i can tell it to 'remind me tonight' which is really nice, because if i go to bed i can turn it off. otherwise i have way too much stuff open to be bothered to reboot it. 

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