Honda and JPL create a new type of battery that could be the future of EVs

[Sithon1]

Honda in association with California institute of technology and JPL have created a room temperature flouride ion battery . They say this battery will be more stable than lithium ion batteries with less risk of overheating.

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/amp/honda-ev-battery-fluoride-ion/65391/

Quote

"Fluoride-ion batteries offer a promising new battery chemistry with up to ten times more energy density than currently available Lithium batteries. Unlike Li-ion batteries, FIBs do not pose a safety risk due to overheating, and obtaining the source materials for FIBs creates considerably less environmental impact than the extraction process for lithium and cobalt."

- Dr. Christopher Brooks, Honda Research

Quote

The potential safety and environmental benefits make the technology worth exploring.

Much works needs to be done before the new battery can be put to widespread use, of course, but Honda says that fluoride-ion batteries could well be the future of electric-car battery systems, not to mention any other products that require batteries.

This seems pretty cool.

Imagine a Tesla with same weight and a 2000km range.

[emosun]

1 minute ago, Sithon1 said:

Imagine a Tesla with same weight with a 2000km range.

yeah like a gas car with a large tank

actually just put a large tank on a gas car and have the future now

[Sithon1]

1 minute ago, emosun said:

yeah like a gas car with a large tank

actually just put a large tank on a gas car and have the future now

Less greenhouse gases , with that power to weight ratio electric airplanes become real contenders and much cheaper energy costs.

[Syfes]

We've heard these kind of claims every couple months it seems for over 10 years now. Still nothing to show...  

 

Wake me up when they actually have a production ready solution, until then consider me unimpressed. 

[Fnige]

Can it be the future of batteries overall...

[Curufinwe_wins]

19 minutes ago, Sithon1 said:

Less greenhouse gases , with that power to weight ratio electric airplanes become real contenders and much cheaper energy costs.

Actually it doesn't. Ignoring the time it takes to charge batteries... which is much longer than refilling with liquid fuels. Or the logistics of extremely high throughput power charging facilities at airports.

 

Current best lithium ion batteries reach around .9 MJ/KG. Jet fuel is around 45 MJ/KG. Even with only a 30% energy conversion (thermal to mechanical) efficiency of the turbine (very low. New high bypass turbo fan jets are reaching 50%), and a 85% battery efficiency charge+discharge (high for batteries, electric to mechanical)....

 

That puts jet fuel around 20X more weight efficient than a best of everything current battery. 10X more in theory still is only half way there.

 

The volumetric efficiency is fairly similar. Though you would save the weight of parts of the turbine, I'm not sure that you would end up saving much once you got back making a high subsonic thrust vector.

[mynameisjuan]

Still waiting for game changing batteries announced 10 years ago.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, emosun said:

yeah like a gas car with a large tank

actually just put a large tank on a gas car and have the future now

EV: $5 tank and no tax

Petrol: $60 tank and tax

Diesel: $50 tank and road user charges + tax

LPG: oh dear

 

Electric cars are the future, can’t hide in the past old man!

[PlayStation 2]

10 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

EV: $5 tank and no tax

Petrol: $60 tank and tax

Diesel: $50 tank and road user charges + tax

LPG: oh dear

 

Electric cars are the future, can’t hide in the past old man!

In America, the average car costs like $30-40 to refuel, with diesel trucks not that far behind.

Most crossovers and compact cars don't have huge fuel tanks and are usually pretty efficient on gas usage.

Electric cars still aren't massively cheaper to own here, and if you're buying a Tesla, you're paying up the ass for a brand name.

[vetali]

Still likely 10+ years away if theres no issues. 

 

Biggest reason why I am not considering EVs as my next car purchase yet isn't anything to do with range. I think ranges of modern EVs are good. Its the charge time. When charge time is closer to the time to refuel traditional gasoline cars, I'll be interested. 

 

 

[Taf the Ghost]

35 minutes ago, Syfes said:

We've heard these kind of claims every couple months it seems for over 10 years now. Still nothing to show...  

 

Wake me up when they actually have a production ready solution, until then consider me unimpressed. 

More like close to 40 years. I'd also be concerned about the nature of the Fluoride. We know the safety profiles of Lithium pretty well, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Sithon1]

21 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Actually it doesn't. Ignoring the time it takes to charge batteries... which is much longer than refilling with liquid fuels. Or the logistics of extremely high throughput power charging facilities at airports.

 

Current best lithium ion batteries reach around .9 MJ/KG. Jet fuel is around 45 MJ/KG. Even with only a 30% energy conversion (thermal to mechanical) efficiency of the turbine (very low. New high bypass turbo fan jets are reaching 50%), and a 85% battery efficiency charge+discharge (high for batteries, electric to mechanical)....

 

That puts jet fuel around 20X more weight efficient than a best of everything current battery. 10X more in theory still is only half way there.

 

The volumetric efficiency is fairly similar. Though you would save the weight of parts of the turbine, I'm not sure that you would end up saving much once you got back making a high subsonic thrust vector.

You could get around the speed issue with hot swappable standard battery packs. Despite the energy to weight still not being comparable, the energy cost is still much less. It would be good for cargo and slower speed utility aircraft.

Just speculating for fun.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

In America, the average car costs like $30-40 to refuel, with diesel trucks not that far behind.

Most crossovers and compact cars don't have huge fuel tanks and are usually pretty efficient on gas usage.

Electric cars still aren't massively cheaper to own here, and if you're buying a Tesla, you're paying up the ass for a brand name.

$4000 gets you a nice wee Nissan Leaf. Not too much when you save that much in gas every year. 

[justpoet]

A good EV can be had in the US in the 30k range (which is also roughly the average US car sales price), +/- tax credits…as long as you're in California, since most EVs are only sold to the Cali market due to battery shortages.    Tesla is the exception, not only on availability, but also on price, and also is out of the tax credits now (too many units shipped to qualify as of next year).  Tesla is also the exception for reasonable charge times in most places if you don't have the full range from home with a full charge and charger overnight in your garage.

 

What will be interesting will be the output amp ratings (LiPo batteries are exceptionally good at high output amps compared to all other current batteries, and we're still taxing them fairly well in cars), the cost of production, and the cycle count expectancy...for any new battery technologies, not just density (they didn't specify weight either, just density, but I'll give that a pass for now assuming it won't be super silly like Pb batteries).

 

If more businesses caught the solar bug and used it to power car chargers as an employment perk, or did charging with it like parking vouchers for shopping with a restaurant, then we could make big steps forward in that realm, but if they get the solar bug, in general they just use it to reduce ongoing electric costs instead.

 

Still, new battery technologies are always interesting, and we can't move forward without looking into them further, so I'm happy to see more new battery tech in the news.

 

[Curufinwe_wins]

12 minutes ago, Sithon1 said:

You could get around the speed issue with hot swappable standard battery packs. Despite the energy to weight still not being comparable, the energy cost is still much less. It would be good for cargo and slower speed utility aircraft.

Just speculating for fun.

Maybe. But if energy to weight wasn't so important, we would use cheaper liquid fuels instead.

 

And energy costs of cheaper liquid fuels isn't more expensive than direct electricity. I mean think about it, if LNG is the cheapest electricity source right now in bulk for the US, and state-of-the-art LNG plants hit 50% thermal to electric energy efficiency, then add in transmission losses and 85% max charge+ discharge capabilities... directly burning the LNG at even 35% efficiency is going to be similar cost to the power plant. And again, high bypass are looking at around 50% peak thermal to mechanical as well.

 

Though you are definitely correct in this having far more applicability in slower cargo plants.

[schwellmo92]

What happened to graphene batteries being the lithium killer? I’ll believe it when I see it.

[emosun]

57 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

EV: $5 tank and no tax 

lol , how much is the battery again , they giving those out for free now huh?

[Guest]

Just now, emosun said:

lol , how much is the battery again , they giving those out for free now huh?

They come with the car, usually in the car where the engine would be. 

[emosun]

1 hour ago, Sithon1 said:

Less greenhouse gases

stamping a steel gas tank produces less pollution than assembling 1000 chemicals from around the world to make a battery

[PlayStation 2]

38 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

$4000 gets you a nice wee Nissan Leaf. Not too much when you save that much in gas every year. 

Are we talking new cars or used cars?

Because the range on a first generation Leaf ain't that much, definitely not enough for people who take hour long commutes to their job or school, because that's a common scenario in the United States.

If you showed me a Chevrolet Sonic vs. a Chevrolet Bolt, or a Nissan Sentra vs. a Nissan Leaf, the Sentra and the Sonic would be cheaper in the short and long run unless I kept that car for a good couple of decades.

[emosun]

1 minute ago, RorzNZ said:

They come with the car, usually in the car where the engine would be. 

oh wow , those batteries must cost zero dollars then seeing as they came with the car

the cars price in no way is effected , they should just give the owner 10 batteries seeing as they are free

tbh. I've built electric cars , i'm giving you a hard time becuase i know a lot more than you. lol

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Are we talking new cars or used cars?

Because the range on a first generation Leaf ain't that much, definitely not enough for people who take hour long commutes to their job or school, because that's a common scenario in the United States.

If you showed me a Chevrolet Sonic vs. a Chevrolet Bolt, or a Nissan Sentra vs. a Nissan Leaf, the Sentra and the Sonic would be cheaper in the short and long run unless I kept that car for a good couple of decades.

Like used ones, but you can buy new and they don't depreciate much. If you get a new one every year its a couple thousand you lose, cause you save so much on gas. Gas prices are pretty different here so its way worth it. Not to mention the Tax. Also no Chevys unfortunately. You know a country is in a rut when Chevrolet is a luxury brand lol. 

 

4 minutes ago, emosun said:

oh wow , those batteries must cost zero dollars then seeing as they came with the car

the cars price in no way is effected , they should just give the owner 10 batteries seeing as they are free

tbh. I've built electric cars , i'm giving you a hard time becuase i know a lot more than you. lol

You don't seem to know as much as me, you should put more of your knowledge into what you write. 

[justpoet]

3 minutes ago, emosun said:

tbh. I've built electric cars , i'm giving you a hard time becuase i know a lot more than you. lol

OT: I've actually been thinking about picking up a used version of the econo-sport car I had in college, probably with a dead engine, and converting it to electric.  Beyond a separate motor to run pumps for things like brakes and power steering, what are common things people forget to consider (basics like weight, battery management, how to mate to the drivetrain without blowing it up from torque, etc are things I've already thought about).  Are there any go-to controllers these days (been a while since I looked at specific hardware, as this thought has been swirling for many years now).

[Blademaster91]

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

stamping a steel gas tank produces less pollution than assembling 1000 chemicals from around the world to make a battery

Yeah almost no one mentions how much it impacts the environment to actually make the batteries, and when those batteries fail it pollutes to recycle them.

I like electrics cars as a way from getting away from liquid fuel, but it shouldn't be a total replacement when there are cheap and efficient liquid fuels like LPG or Hydrogen.

48 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

$4000 gets you a nice wee Nissan Leaf. Not too much when you save that much in gas every year. 

A Leaf for $4000? Sure you can find a Leaf or Prius for around that much, but you will spend way more than $4000 replacing the batteries.

[emosun]

3 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

You don't seem to know as much as me, you should put more of your knowledge into what you write. 

why you are barely worth my time