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Found 12 results

  1. Introduction: By the popular concept of @Aniallation, who since retired from the forum, the "How many watts do I need" is still one of the most asked question by many people wanting to build a PC. By similar methodology, here a simple guideline to how much your PC would need, assuming the quality of the PSU itself is good. These numbers are estimations based off a stress maximum load, one you will likely never reach in normal use. Take these numbers as a guideline, but feel free to ask on the forum itself if you're still not sure what you need with your exact configuration. Methodology: CPU+GPU+50=estimated wattage, chosen worst case out of the configs Low-end APU system: Midrange APU system: Low-end gaming: Midrange gaming: Mid-high gaming: High-end gaming: High-end 3080 gaming: High-End 3090 gaming: Low-end hedt/tr: Midrange hedt/tr: High-end hedt/tr: Ultra high-end hedt/tr: CPU power consumption: GPU Power Consumption: License
  2. Introduction: Today I have tested 5 versions of the popular Black lines of Kailh, Gateron and Cherry. I'll be giving out up to 5 points per switch, giving 5 to the best, 1 to the worst on each part. This is all based off opinion, and your preference may vary on some parts. Gateron Black: Key stability: 3/5 RGB passthrough: 2/5 Lubing: 3/5 Sound: 2/5 Smoothness: 3/5 Weight: 5/5 Value: 5/5 To start with the cheapest of the line: Gateron black. They can be found for as low as 20 cents/switch and are a great step-in point if you want something that feels like a heavier red. Their key stability is decent, RGB passthrough unfortunately really not good, for this you should get an RGB version. Their smoothness is actually quite decent for the price, especially after lubing i did enjoy the quick session of gaming i did with it. with their lower travel and relatively light weight compared to others I'd sure recommend it. Gallary: Gateron Milk Black: Key stability: 4/5 RGB passthrough: 3/5 Lubing: 4/5 Sound: 4/5 Smoothness: 2/5 Weight: 4/5 value 4/5 Then a slightly different, but similar switch. Gateron's Milk black has a top housing that's white rather than transparent, giving it a bit of a special look. I felt like the key stability on it was a bit better, the RGB passthrough are still wishes to be found, but it's still better than the normal one as well. I felt a bit of sand-like feeling at stock, but a lot of it lost when I lubed it. the sound of it becomes a bit clacky when doing this as well. the smoothness on itself I gave rather low because of its stock performance. the weight is highly enjoyable for the short session I played, though the normal ones felt a little better on this. because they generally cost only a little more than regular blacks (24c/switch), I’m giving them a 4/5 on value. Gallery: Gateron Ink Black: Key stability: 1/5 RGB passthrough: 4/5 Lubing: 5/5 Sound: 5/5 Smoothness: 5/5 Weight: 2/5 value: 2/5 then, the most expensive out of this lineup. the switch is easy to recognize by its smoky black housing, which seems to give a lot of the incredible smoothness to the switch. the key stability looks bad this way, but i felt like it was the worst from the 5 that i tried. the RGB passthrough is a bit dark because of the housing, but does come through decently. lubing it gives it even a little more smoothness, rivalling it with the well-known and personally used Tealios. their weight unfortunately felt a bit heavy for me at bottom out for gaming, but would be very enjoyable if you're purely typing. because of their high price tag of at minimum 0,75 cents/switch, their value is of course not that high rated, but if you're looking for something really smooth and don't want to pay the premium for something like Tealios, this is the option to go for. Gallery: Kailh Box Black: Key stability: 5/5 RGB passthrough: 5/5 Lubing: 2/5 Sound: 3/5 Smoothness: 4/5 Weight: 3/5 value: 3/5 Kailh box black is a bit of a different formfactor, and takes it's name from it's "box" around the switch stem. because of this the key stability is simply unrivalled by the others. their RGB passthrough is also the best out of these switches, as Kailh used a transparent housing on the switch. the lubing is decent, but doesn't feel that needed on it compared to the others. their smoothness is decent, though the feeling between the actuation point and bottom out was for me hard to feel. as they're more expensive than the Gateron milk and regular black, I felt like a 3/5 value would be fair for it. Gallery: Cherry MX Black: Key stability: 2/5 RGB passthrough: 1/5 Lubing: 1/5 Sound: 1/5 Smoothness: 1/5 weight: 1/5 value: 1/5 It almost feels like i just chose these numbers to shit on cherry here... but this really was how I felt about it. the key stability of it is decent, but nothing special compared to Gateron, it's RGB passthrough on this version is about nothing, since the fully black switch blocks the light on my keyboard. the lubing made the already sandpaper-like feel of the switch even worse, which also gives a sound while you’re typing on it. the weight of it felt on the heavy side for me and because I have so many complaints, while this is the second most expensive switch in the line, the 1/5 value makes it a worse one than the most expensive switch in the lineup. Gallery: Verdict: Gateron Black: very cheap (~20c), decent weight for gaming and typing, smooth, worth lubing but recommended to get the RGB version if needed. Gateron Milk Black: cheap (~24c), nice weight for gaming and typing, relatively smooth, but a bit sand-like feel at stock, RGB passthrough not well. Gateron Ink Black: expensive (~75c), but the smoothest black switch out there, very nice clacky sound, RGB passthrough doable, but not ideal. Kailh Box Black: well-priced (~40c), extremely good key stabilization, pretty smooth, not that worthy to lube, RGB passthrough is good. Cherry MX Black: middle ground price (~40c), sandpaper-like feeling, mediocre sound, key stability, lubing makes the sand-like feel even worse, RGB gets completely blocked, so recommended is to get the RGB version.
  3. Introduction Today I'm going to break down what are in my eyes the most important parts of the Intel ATX Power Supply Specification, but to a more understandable level. I’ll link the full specification below. This document will be based on ATX Design Guide June 2018, revision 002 and will include some outside info. 2.1 Processor Configurations - Recommended This paragraph talks about the second 12v rail, meant only for the CPU. Intel recommends how much current it should allow before shutting down for some of their TDP's. I noted an example of a CPU with the TDP to give an idea, and the amount of watts that would be on this rail. PSU 12V2 Capacity Recommendations Processor TDP Continous Current Peak Current 165w (9980XE) 37.5A (450w) 45.0A (540w) 140w (7900x) 28.0A (336w) 39.0A (468w) 95w (9900k) 22.0A (264w) 29.0A (348w) 65w (9400) 21.0A (252w) 28.0A (336) 35w (9100) 13.0A (156w) 16.5A (198w) you could manually calculate this the following two ways: 12v2 Continuous Current = (SoC sustained Power / VRM efficiency) / 11.4v 12v2 Continuous Current = (SoC Peak Power / VRM efficiency) / 11.4v 3.1: AC Input - Required This part goes into detail regarding what voltages the PSU should be able to handle as input or AC current. If it's rated for 115v, it doesn't mean it can't handle a spike to 130v for example. The two most important ones are listed below in a tableThis part goes into detail regarding what voltages the PSU should be able to handle as input or AC current. If it's rated for 115v, it doesn't mean it can't handle a spike to 130v for example. The two most important ones are listed below in a table. Voltage Minimum Nominal Maximum 115v AC 90v 115v 135v 230v AC 180v 230v 265v 3.1.1: Input Over Current Protection - Required Many will think about Over Current Protection with this, but it's not quite the same, since that's on the other side of the PSU. This follows a similar idea, but on the AC side. It uses fuses to protect the PSU from too high current on the AC side in case of a PSU hardware failure. 3.1.2 Inrush Current - Required Inrush current is the high input current that a PSU or other electrical device pulls for an instant when turning on. Usually, this is caused by charging capacitors It is required to limit it, since you could trip a breaker or even damage the PSU itself without it. 3.1.3: Input Under Voltage - Required Many will again think of the DC side protection, but this is when voltage would drop below the minimum shown in the table above. So if it drops below 90v for 115v or 180v for 230v it will shut itself down to limit damage done to the PSU. 3.2.1: DC Voltage Regulation - Required Now we're going to the other side, the output or DC side. These have to stay inside a margin of 5-10% depending on the rail. You can see this below in a table. Output Range Minimum Nominal Maximum +12V 5% +11.40V +12.00V +12.60V +5V 5% +4.75V +5.00V +5.25V +3.3V 5% +3.14V +3.30V +3.47V +5VSB 5% +4.75V +5.00V +5.25V -12V 10% -10.80V -12.00V -13.20V 3.2.5: Output Ripple Noise - Required Ripple is the AC noise that's still left after conversion to DC voltage. This you should try to keep as low as possible, but Intel set some limits to this in their specification. In the first table you can see Intel's limits, in the second what I personally consider for a PSU within normal operation range, but it's a lot harder to meet. Intel: Output Maximum Ripple +12V 120mV +5V 50mV +3.3V 50mV -12V 120mV +5VSB 50mV Personal: Output Maximum Ripple +12V 50mV +5V 30mV +3.3V 30mV -12V 50mV +5VSB 30mV 3.2.8: +5v DC / +3.3v DC Power Sequencing - Required DC Power Sequencing is the time it has to take between certain rails to start up. This is best explained by looking at the image Intel provides for this. As you can see here, the 3.3v line should always be lower than the others, because of the way a system would boot up. If this fails by a bigger margin, the system won't power on. The impact of a smaller fail is unknown to me. 3.2.9: Voltage Hold-Up Time - Required Voltage hold-up time is simply said that a PSU should be able to at least supply it's maximum rated continuous load for 17ms if the AC input suddenly shuts off. Intel requires this to be at a minimum load of 0A. This does not mean that this will prevent it from cutting power on a longer run. A longer hold-up time (let's say for example 23ms) won't improve this for users except if they own a UPS, as this is the time a good UPS would be able to continue operation. 3.3.1: PWR_OK - Required PWR_OK or Power Good is a signal the PSU sends that the 12V, 5V and 3.3V rails are within limits and that there's enough energy left in the converter to supply it with the specified load. If this signal indicates differently, the PSU or motherboard will shut itself down. 3.3.4: +5VSB - Required 5 Volt StandBy (5VSB) is a rail that supplies power to components when the system isn't powered up. This would for example be to keep motherboard LEDs on, allow for Wake on LAN to work or power USB devices. 3.5.1: Over Voltage Protection (OVP) - Required Over Voltage Protection or OVP is a protection against a too high voltage on a rail. This is technically required for everything but the 5VSB, but is highly recommended to be present there as well. It's generally integrated into the protection IC. In the table below you can see the voltages Intel recommends to set it to. Output Minimum Nominal Maximum +12V 13.40V 15.00V 15.60V +5V 5.74V 6.30V 7.00V +3.3V 3.76V 4.20V 4.30V +5VSB 5.74V 6.30V 7.00V 3.5.2: Short Circuit Protection (SCP) - Required Short Circuit Protection or SCP measures the resistance on each rail, and will shut down when resistance is lower than 0.1 Ohms. Generally this goes combined with OPP, OCP, OVP and UVP. It's generally integrated into the protection IC, and is required on ATX spec, with separate circuits per rail. 3.5.4: Over Current Protection (OCP) - Required The term Over Current Protection or OCP has two types of protection included into the name, being OCP and OPP. Over Power Protection or OPP is a protection that will shut down the PSU when too much power on all rails combined is drawn, generally this is between 110 and 140% of the advertised wattage. This is a protection that works as a limit, shutting down when a certain point is reached, but doesn't actively monitor the amount of current. It's generally integrated into the PWM controller. Over Current Protection or OCP has the same purpose, but a different concept than OPP. OCP will generally be faster than OPP, since it uses shunt resistors to check the amount of current on each individual rail, and will shut down if a certain point is reached. OCP on 12V is generally only found on PSUs with multiple rails, since OPP can handle a single rail just fine. It's generally integrated into the protection IC combined with shunt resistors. To explain the difference very simply is that OPP is a limit for the whole rail and OCP is a more continuous check of every single rail. 3.5.5 Over Temperature Protection (OTP) - Required Over Temperature Protection or OTP protects the PSU against overheating,for example due to a fan failure. it's generally a thermistor combined with a protection IC that supports this, but there have also been cases where it was integrated into the fan controller. Most reviewers stop measuring after 200°C, but it depends on the place the thermistor is integrated what recommended limits are. 3.5.7: Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - Recommended This is basically a different wording for multirail. Multi rail these days aren’t physical rails, rather they have multiple points where they measure the current (generally 2-8). It can shut down the PSU earlier to protect itself, with a lower chance of burning through connectors and/or cables with a catastrophic failure. 3.5.9: Power Supply Efficiency for Energy Regulations, Energy Star and CEC PC Computers with High Expandability Score - Recommended This part of the documentation includes 3 examples of efficiency requirements, being the ones from Energy Star, CEC and Efficiency for Energy Regulations. I'll include the ones from Cybenetics and 80+ as a comparison. Efficiency for Energy Loading Full load (100%) Typical load (50%) Light load (20%) Required minimum 70% 72% 65% Energy Star (version 6.1/7.0) Loading Full load (100%) Typical load (50%) Light load (20%) Minimum (V6.1) 82% 85% 82% Minimum (V7.0) 87% 90% 87% CEC Loading Full load (100%) Typical load (50%) Light load (20%) Minimum (115v) 87% 90% 87% Minimum (230v) 88% 92% 88% Cybenetics Efficiency levels (115V) Efficiency 5VSB Efficiency A++ =>94% - <97% >79% A+ =>91% - <94% >77% A =>88% - <91% >75% A- =>85% - <88% >73% Standard =>82% - <85% >71% Efficiency levels (230v) Efficiency 5VSB Efficiency A++ =>96% >78% A+ =>93% - <96% >76% A =>90% - <93% >74% A- =>87% - <90% >72% Standard =>84% - <87% >70% 80 plus Rating 10% (very low load) 20% (low load) 50% (typical load) 100% (Full load) 80+ 115v 80% 80% 80% 80+ 230v 82% 85% 82% 80+ Bronze 115v 82% 85% 82% 80+ Bronze 230v 85% 88% 85% 80+ Silver 115v 85% 88% 85% 80+ Silver 230v 87% 90% 87% 80+ Gold 115v 85% 89% 85% 80+ Gold 230v 90% 92% 89% 80+ Platinum 115v 90% 94% 89% 80+ Platinum 230v 92% 94% 90% 80+ Titanium 115v 90% 92% 94% 90% 80+ Titanium 230v 90% 94% 96% 94% 4.2.1: AC Connector - Required In this part Intel mentions a IEC 320 or equivalent plug, which might sound complicated, but this is just the name of the well known 3-pin plug you find on most PSUs With that it needs to have a dedicated on/off switch next to it. 4.2.2.1: Main Power Connector - Required orange=3.3v blue=-12v black=ground/communication green=power on red=5v gray=power good purple=5vsb yellow=12v the main power connector, generally called 24 pin connector because of it's 20+4 pins supplies its power via the motherboard to many components, including part of the GPU, memory, the motherboard itself and so on. 4.2.2.2: Peripheral Connectors - Required yellow=12v black=ground/communicaton red=5v Peripheral connectors, or better known as the Molex standard is a connector that's getting more and more rare in favor of other connectors these days. It's used on old GPUs, expansion cards and so on. Fun thing is that Molex was the base for many connectors, including PCI-E, EPS and ATX Main Power. They’re part of the so-called Micro Fit series. 4.2.2.4: PCI-Express (PCI-E) Graphics Card Connector - Required yellow=12v black=communication/ground The PCI-E Graphics Card Connector, or generally called PCI-E connector supplies power to the GPU. A 6 pin is rated for up to 75W, while the 8 pin goes up to 150W. 4.2.2.5: +12V Power Connector - Required yellow=12v black=communication/ground The +12V power connector or 8 (4+4) pin connector is a cable that provides current to the VRM, which then supplies it to the CPU. It follows the EPS standard. 4.2.2.6: Serial ATA (SATA) Connectors - Required orange=3.3v black=communication/ground red=5v yellow=12v Serial ATA or SATA power is mostly used for drives using the SATA standard, but can be used for other things as well. 6.0: Environmental - Recommended A PSU has to be able to: Operate at +10 to +50 degrees Celsius at full load. Survive -40 to +70 degrees Celsius while not operating Operate at a humidity up to 85% Survive a humidity up to 95% while not operating Operate at up to 3.048 meters high Survive non-operational at up to 15.240 meters high Survive a mechanical shock of 50 grams while not operating 8.4: Safety - Required Should a component failure occur, the power supply should not exhibit any of the following: Flame Excessive smoke Burnt PCB Fused PCB conductor Unusual noise Emission of molten material Fail to ground 9.1: Reliablity - Recommended This is relatively simple. Make a unit that's expected to work at least for it's rated lifetime (generally by warranty) by selecting the right components. This would mainly include capacitor and fan lifetime and reliability. 10.0-15.0: CFX12V/LFX12V/ATX12/SFX12V/TFX12V/FLEX ATX Specific Guidelines - Required The last paragraph goes into the many shapes you find power supplies in. here a quick breakdown CFX12V: CFX is a formfactor only really used in SFF sized prebuilts. It's simply said an ATX sized PSU with a cut in it. ATX12V: Standardized formfactor PSU, which is the most common to find. SFX12V: A formfactor for small sized PSUs for use with SFF builds. SFX-L12V: A slightly bigger version of SFX, which allows a 120mm fan to fit up top TFX12V: A formfactor closer to server PSUs in its shape. These are rare to find, mostly in office/HTPCs, but even there SFX is getting more common. FLEX ATX: A formfactor mostly used in small cases, but just like TFX hard to find as SFX becomes more common From Left to right: SFX -> SFX-L -> ATX Sources: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/power-supply-design-guide-june.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_Plus https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/1154199-psu-protections-what-do-they-help-against-and-how-do-they-work/ https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?option=eta_9-51-40 Credit: @sowon Moritz Plattner - Tech-review.de License
  4. (This also counts for focus based PSUs like Antec Earthwatts and Asus Strix, with the exception of the nzxt-e and the new Focus GM, GX, PX and SGX lines (it meets 2.52 atx, which require hardware changes)) The Seasonic Focus line has been suffering major criticism on the PSU subforum lately. Why?  Old revisions (2017-2018) will shut off on some GPUs (970, 1080 ti, vega 64, Vega VII, 2080 ti). it'll will trigger the overcurrent protection, and will shut down immediately. This is likely due to the high transients the GPUs are known to put out New revisions (2018-2019) have a bigger headroom, but aren't built for it and start to ripple at the loads where the PSU would shut down at with the older revision.  If you plan on buying one, either wait for the v2, or choose a different PSUs, for this you can check the PSU tier list, or ask around on the forum. With that is focus known to be quite loud under load, has a staggering 200% opp on the 3.3v rail, but this isn't as concerning as the above mentioned problems. edit: the 2019 based Focus GX/GM/PX have fixed mentioned issues Sources: @PSUGuru, Tomshardware, Guru3d, seasonic, pceva
  5. Introduction There are many things you should look for on a PSU, and subjectively protections are one of the most important, if not the most important thing to look for. They will shut down the PSU down because of too much power, too much or too little voltage, short circuits or high temperatures. Here will be a breakdown of every protection. What they do, how they technically work and how important it is. Some terms used Protection IC= an integrated Circuit that monitors the PSU, integrating most, and in some cases all protections. ATX Standard= A standard set by Intel with all the requirements or recommendations for PSUs in regard of protections, voltage regulation, ripple and so on. Shunt resistor= a device which creates a low-resistance path for electric current, to allow it to pass around another point in the circuit. This way it can measure current Thermistor=A type of resistor whose resistance is dependent on temperature. OPP (Over Power Protection) Over Power Protection or OPP is a protection that will shut down the PSU when too much power is pulled, generally this is between 110 and 140% of the advertised wattage. This is a protection that works as a limit, shutting down when a certain point is reached, but doesn't actively monitors the amount of current. It's generally integrated into the PWM controller and is a crucial protection. It's required in ATX except if OCP is also there. OCP (Over Current Protection) Over Current Protection or OCP has the same purpose, but a different concept as OPP. OCP will generally be faster than OPP, since it uses shunt resistors to check the amount of current, and will shut down if a certain point is reached. OCP on 12v is generally only found on PSUs with multiple rails, since OPP can handle a single rail just fine. It's generally integrated into the protection IC combined with shunt resistors and is a recommended, but not required protection by ATX. OTP (Over Temperature Protection) Over Temperature Protection or OTP is a protection that protects the PSU against overheating with for example a fan failure. it's generally a thermistor combined with a protection IC that supports this, but there have also been cases where it was integrated into the fan controller. Most reviewers stop measuring after 200c, but it depends on the place the thermistor is integrated what recommended limits are. It's recommended until ATX 2.52, but since has been required. UVP (Under Voltage Protection) Under Voltage Protection or UVP is meant to shut down if voltage goes down too far. not only because a lot of components need a stable voltage, so you can have less correction on the VRM side, it's also there because OCP and OPP measure by how much current is going through, but not the voltage. so if the voltage drops down, the current can go higher, which can result in burnt cables or connectors. It's generally integrated into the protection IC, and recommended in the ATX standard, but required for a modern PSU in my eyes. OVP (Over Voltage Protection) Over voltage Protection or OVP works to a similar way as UVP, but the other way around. It checks the voltage on a rai that it isn't getting too high, so it can keep a safe height, and will shut down if it gets too high. It's generally integrated integrated into the protection IC and required by ATX standards. Voltages for OVP according to ATX spec Output Minimum (V) Nominal (V) Maximum (V) +12 VDC 13.4 15 15.6 +5 VDC 5.74 6.3 7 +3.3 VDC 3.76 4.2 4.3 5VSB 5.74 6.3 7 SCP (Short Circuit Protection) Short Circuit Protection or SCP measures the resistance on each rail, and will shut down when resistance is lower than 0.1 Ohms. Generally this goes combined with OPP, OCP, OVP and UVP. It's generally integrated into the protection IC, and is required on ATX spec, with separate circuits per rail. PWR_OK Signal The Power Good or PWR_OK signal is a delay signal to show if the PSU has enough energy stored for at least 17 ms under maximum load. This delay must be under 500ms, but is preferred below 250ms according to the ATX specification, but must be higher than 100ms. Verdict OPP is required, for when too much power is pulled. OCP is recommended, and is meant for the same thing. OTP is required since the most recent ATX specification when too high temperatures are reached. UVP is recommended by ATX, required by me for when voltage drops too low OVP is required by ATX for when voltage goes too far up. SCP is required for when resistance gets too little. PWR_OK is required to signal the PSU can still function right until the next one. Sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermistor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_(electrical) https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supplies-101,4193.html https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/power-supply-design-guide-june.pdf
  6. These days the 12v is known to power almost everything: GPUs, CPUs, fans, part of the motherboard, sometimes DRAM (but is generally still 3.3v) and some PCs already fully work with it (converting it on the motherboard normally). This used to be different, with 5v being much more important than it used to be. From almost everything on the board, these days it's main use is powering storage. In this earlier era the "group regulation" design was made, and used for many years, even today on budget units from various popular companies including at the time of writing: Be Quiet - Pure Power 11 (300-350w only) Cooler Master - Masterwatt Lite Corsair - VS 2017 EVGA - W1, N1, N2, BT FSP Hexa+, Hyper, Hammer, Raider, part of Aurum Seasonic - S12ii/M12ii Thermaltake - Smart 80+ Xilence - Performance C and many others, which are at the time of writing still widely available. Problem 1: Group regulation and crossloads the main problem with group regulated units is that it regulates 12v and 5v together. as noted above these days the only big use for 5v is part of the motherboard and storage, which keeps the load on it quite low, while modern systems have the heaviest components on 12v. In the PSU world we use the word "crossload" for loading up one rail a lot, while the others little to none (either from 3.3/5/12v). When the 12v is loaded up far enough, the controller can't keep the 5v in control, as they're reported together and starts to go out of ATX specification as the controller thinks it's only rising the 12v. especially since some of the units above don't have undervoltage protection, this can have results from shorter lifespan of components to in very bad cases burnt cables. ATX specification only allows a difference up to 5% between rails. They can also fail ATX specification easily when the minor (3.3/5v) are loaded up, while the 12v is kept at the minimal 0.1a Problem 2: Low load operation The PSU is required to output voltages while the 12v is at only 0.05a, which is for most group regulated units impossible to do with the crossloading problems mentioned above. not meeting this is again a fail for ATX specification for Haswell. Examples: Group regulated units failing ATX specification http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/11/12/evga-750n1-750w-power-supply/3/ http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/10/08/cooler-master-masterwatt-lite-600w-230v-power-supply/3/ How do I recognize a group regulated unit? The first way (if you have internal shots) is to look at the number of regulation coils. if two are present, it's a group regulated unit, at 3 it's individually regulated. The big coil is used for 12v/5v, the smaller for 3.3v. The second indication that a PSU is group regulated is to look at the power distribution label. If the PSU says it can output a total a 600w but the 12v says it only outputs 400w, then that's an indication that it's group regulated. Here's some images which hopefully provide additionally clarity to those that don't know. There are two sides to a PSU. Primary and Secondary. Won't go into details on the specifics here, The two coils boxed in red are located on the secondary side. 12v and 5v are regulated on the bigger coil and the small coil has 3.3v. Now a thing to consider here is that there is a secondary topology known as Dual Mag Amp, which has two magamp coils. Better than group regulation from a performance standpoint, but in general, it's not very efficient. I think the most you can achieve is bronze efficiency. Maybe silver. It can be easy to confused the two topologies. Now, sometimes, group regulation could use one coil. I've seen a few very old PSUs with just the one coil. (credit to JonnyGuru.com for this image.) Below is a Corsair CX450, Boxed in red are the DC-DC converters. Now, this example shows the coils covered. But usually, the coils are exposed and mounted a daughter board(s). These regulate the minor rail outputs while the 12v is independently regulated. Final verdict If you can, get a DC-DC unit, or at least something individually regulated. If you can't, keept the 12v at a minimal level, for example not combining it with high end or even mid-low GPU's or powerful CPUs. They're simply not made for modern component use. License: Credit: @PSUGuru
  7. Thanks to @Seasonic Rep for the sample Some brief information The Seasonic Focus and Focus Plus will be replaced by 4 new focus models: The GM, GX, PX and SGX. The GM will replace the Focus, having 7 years of warranty, an 80+ gold rating and semi-modular cables. The GX will replace the Focus Plus Gold, having 10 years of warranty, an 80+ gold rating and fully modular cables. The PX will replace the Focus Plus Platinum, having 10 years of warranty, 80+ platinum rating and fully modular cables. The SGX will not replace any current focus units, but rather starting a new line as an SFX-L, having 10 years of warranty, 80+ gold rating and fully modular cables. The new units are still all single rail, which I'm personally less of a fan of, especially after 650w (which makes it less of a case here, but is applicable for other focus GX units) . This is because of the rare case that undervoltage protection would be ruled out or fail and a rail would drop down in voltage. after this wattage it's likely to burn the cables when this would happen. this is a rare, but not impossible case. External shots Bottom/label Side Back Side included cables Connectors Box Top/fan Internal shots Total view backside DC-DC section Full internal APFC side Fan close-up for fan model Performance data as we currently don't own any equipment to test PSUs on efficiency, noise and other things, I'll leave some data here from reputable reviewers about a GX based model in form of the Phanteks AMP. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phanteks-amp-series-550w-power-supply-review https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phanteks-amp-series-650w-power-supply-review https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phanteks-amp-series-750w-power-supply Other things in the box - Zipties - PSU tester (shorts 2 pins on 24-pin to turn it on) - Manual - Quick start guide - Power cable - 4 screws Cables 24 pin (Motherboard) EPS12V (CPU) PCIe power (GPU) SATA Molex 1x20+4 2x2 6+2 pin 2x 4+4 pin 10 4 (3+1 on sata cable) Power distribution +3.3v +5v +12v -12v +5vsb 20a 20a 62a 0.3a 3a 100w 100w 648w 3.6w 15w The fan The fan can be set in 2 different modes, a normal and a "hybrid" mode. This can be toggled with a button on the back, unpressed being in this hybrid mode, and pressed in a normal mode. hybrid mode keeps the fan off up to a certain load, with measurements from Seasonic having it start spinning after 30% load with 25 degrees ambient. the normal mode keeps the fan spinning at a lower rpm at this load, but not passively like the hybrid mode. I personally prefer the normal mode, as it's not noticeable over the fans in my case. The fan used here is a FDB (Fluid Dynamic Bearing). This is is a Hong Hua HA1225H12F-Z, rated for 2200 rpm at 12v 0.58a. Personal notes - When installing the PSU in my masterbox 5 lite rgb, i found the 8 pin EPS a bit on the short side, as i could barely reach it on my motherboard. I had to take my cooler out to properly install it. - Most of the cables aren't sleeved, which some might prefer - A 3x SATA cable would've been easier to manage in my case, from experience with the CX550m - The tester is a nice touch - you can't easily dust out the PSU, since the top has to be fully taken off to remove the fan Final Verdict + silent at lower loads (meets blue color requirements as of revision 13.0) + pretty looking + fully modular + choice between semi-passive or always-spinning fan + wide range of cables for a 650w unit + stays well within ATX specification 2.52 (as per measurements by Aris) - doesn't meet 2% low-load requirements (as per measurements by Aris) - doesn't meet gilding requirements (as of revision 13.0) - 8 pin EPS could've been a little longer ? 2x8 pin EPS ? protections set ~140%, but regulation stays fine within it (as per measurements by Aris) ? single rail without options to set multi-rail link to mentioned products: https://seasonic.com/focus-gx https://seasonic.com/focus-px https://seasonic.com/focus-gm https://seasonic.com/focus-plus-gold https://seasonic.com/focus-gold
  8. Introduction: Many buy a high wattage PSU because they need it, but some buy them just to have their system more quiet, or at least, they think it will. After talking about the 50% efficiency myth here, this is generally the second given reason for it, and from a theoretical standpoint it makes sense. higher wattage PSUs need more components to supply the advertised power to a system, and will inside the same platform generally look the same otherwise. an example is shown here, with the Corsair RMx (RM550x, Tomshardware) (1000w, TechPowerup) Example 1: RMx because you'd stress the components less a piece there would be less heat in theory, making the fan spin less quickly, which would in theory make a more quiet PSU. if we compare the graphs, we see that the fan kicks in later on the 1000w, making it more silent at those loads in theory, but when the fan kicks in, it actually kicks in louder than on the RM550x. an even better view would be if you compare two that don't use a semi-passive mode. Example 2: Dark Power Pro 11 here you can see it much clearer, as it doesn't use a semi-passive mode. Example 3: Toughpower PF1 there are extreme examples like Thermaltake's Toughpower PF1, which blasts it's fan directly when turning on. Verdict: overwattage can make sense in some cases, if the usage stays inside the lower parts, but it's better to focus at noise output in general, not just how much wattage you can run until the fan starts spinning. get a PSU that fits your system's usage, and look at reviews what is the most quiet PSU inside your budget is, not what the highest wattage is you can afford. as always with wattage: quality>quantity Sources: rm550x (tomshw), RM1000x (TPU), DPP11 850w (Tomshw), DPP11 1000w (TPU), PF1 1200w (TPU)
  9. The following pictures indicate the pinouts for 12 pin, and for Seasonic's pinout on their cable. I'll include a table for a bit more detail 12 pin - GPU side yellow: 12v black: ground PSU side - Seasonic (can vary per manufacturer) yellow: 12v black: ground white: no wire Pin UL AWG Signal PA/PB 1 UL1007 16-18 12v PA - 3 2 UL1007 16-18 12v PA - 2 3 UL1007 16-18 12v PA - 1 4 UL1007 16-18 12v PB - 3 5 UL1007 16-18 12v PB - 2 6 UL1007 16-18 12v PB - 1 7 UL1007 16-18 GND PA - 7 8 UL1007 16-18 GND PA - 6 9 UL1007 16-18 GND PA - 5 10 UL1007 16-18 GND PB - 7 11 UL1007 16-18 GND PB - 6 12 UL1007 16-18 GND PB - 5 Pin: GPU side connector UL: standard for cable used AWG: wire thickness signal: indication of 12v/ground for each pin PA/PB: source of the signal, PA referring to the first connector on the PSU, PB to the second
  10. Introduction This time I'm doing a short bit on a couple of topologies and methods of regulation, and their up- and downsides. A short conclusion will be written below, so you don't have to read the whole thing to make your PSU choice. Topologies - Double Forward - Active Clamp Reset Forward (ACRF) - LLC Resonant Double Forward Double forward or two switch forward is a single forward configuration with 2, rather than 1 MOSFET to keep the core from running into saturation (Vishay) D= Diode Q= MOSFET T= Transformer Cin= Voltage in Upsides: - cheap Downsides: - only scales up to 750w - not meant for high efficiency PSUs, as it generally only goes up to 80+ bronze - due to hard switching more likely to whine Active Clamp Reset Forward (ACRF) ACRF is a topology close to Double forward, but unlike Double forward is able to continue switching without load being applied, making it more efficient, but still use hard switching. mostly produced by FSP Upsides: - relatively cheap - shown to be scalable up to 1000w Downsides: - more expensive than Double forward - efficient enough only to meet 80+ gold - due to hard switching likely to whine, but less than Double forward - mediocre design cause worse transient response LLC Resonant Converter LLC stands for L (inductor), L (transformer primary which is an inductor, too) and C (capacitor). There are two inductors (LL) and a capacitor (C) used which form a resonant circuit . It's made out of 5 parts, in case of a Half-bridge (two switching FETs, transformer, inductor and capacitor). (Texas Instruments) Vin=Voltage in Q=MOSFET Vsq= unipolar square-wave voltage Cr= resonant capacitor Lm= inductor D= Diode Upsides: - efficient enough to (generally) meet up to 80+ Titanium - low chance of whining - high scaling in wattage Downsides: - most expensive Regulations - Group regulation - Double Mag Amp - DC-DC Group Regulation I went into group regulation and why it's a problem before here. It uses two coils, a big and a smaller one. The big one will regulate 12v and 5v, while the smaller one will regulate 3.3v. Thus, because the controller tracks both 12v and 5v rails as a whole, in crossload situations (if the load on one of them is high, while the other is low) voltages can go out of nominal (5% tolerance by ATX specifications). Specifically, This is common situation with modern PCs that, first, support C6/C7 sleep states, in which 5V rail get almost no load while 12V rail still loads relatively high, and second, modern PCs generally don’t load 5V rail much even when not in standby, because the only hardware that still uses it are HDDs and SATA SSDs, while 12V rail can be loaded very high, especially with high-end GPUs. This is especially troublesome with fast peaks of modern GPUs, which switch between 50 and 450 Watt multiple times per second. If the output capacitors can not buffer that (particularly in older units), the main regulator has to follow those peaks - altering also the 5 Volt output voltage with it. This leads to strong 5 Volt fluctuations even if there is little load on the rail. (Jonnyguru) Upsides: - cheap to produce Downsides: - voltage can easily get out of spec due to regulating 12v and 5v together - generally doesn't meet c6/c7 sleep states or can’t keep voltages in specs in crossload situations associated with them - not recommended for anything beyond an APU system Double Mag Amp Double mag amp is one of the two ways of an "independent" regulation, in this case regulated from the secondary winding, using an inductor to step down the current to either 5v or 3.3v. This is relatively uncommon with the introduction of DC-DC, since this is less efficient. An example where this is still used would be Seasonic's S12iii. Also, it can not work with an unloaded output (luckily a situation that doesn’t occur in a normal PC). The picture below marks the 3 coils compared to two on group regulation, by which you can see it's a double mag amp (in this case the s12 based corsair TX 80+) (Anandtech) Upsides: - relatively cheap - individually regulated Downsides: - needs more load to work, hence generally not coming higher than 80+ bronze - low efficiency compared to DC-DC DC-DC DC-DC uses a similar, yet quite different technique to double mag amp. it does share that it uses independent regulation, but does it in a different way. It uses buck step-down converters to lower the voltage directly from 12v to 5v or 3.3v. This is more efficient, and needs less load to function. LLC PSUs can even work properly without any hardware attached on a rail, if necessary. On the picture below i marked a dc-dc converter, in this case on a Seasonic Focus PX (Relaxedtech) Upsides: - individually regulated - very efficient, since it can function with less load - most common in modern PSUs Downsides: - most expensive Verdict: In the most ideal situation you get a DC-DC unit with an LLC Resonant Converter, but due to budget this might not always be possible. APU system: preferably DC-DC, any topology Low-end gaming system: DC-DC, ACRF or LLC midrange-high end gaming system: DC-DC with LLC Sources: https://www.ti.com/seclit/ml/slup263/slup263.pdf https://www.vishay.com/docs/91616/twoswitch.pdf https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supplies-101,4193-14.html https://www.techpowerup.com/articles/overclocking/psu/160/5 https://www.anandtech.com/show/2450/3 https://www.relaxedtech.com/reviews/seasonic/focus-plus-ssr-850px/1 http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/slup129/slup129.pdf License: Credit: Moritz Plattner - Tech-review.de @Juular
  11. newer version can be found here: Credit to: @Jurrunio @GoldenLag The following list is based on facts, ranked on power delivery and known problems. The list will include modern motherboards for both Intel and AMD chips From Asus, Asrock, Biostar EVGA, Gigabyte, MSI, NZXT and Supermicro (chipsets will be listed). We’ll include the recommended chips we would do with the boards. For advanced users: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Smj5dh97n32wJqm5dkdDcQt8ID7vH52-lKzaaXUUQx8/edit?usp=sharing AMD (AM4 Althlon 2xx, Ryzen 3, Ryzen 5, Ryzen 7, Ryzen 9) All current draw figures are based on Prime95 small FFT with AVX unless otherwise specified, in other words the worst case scenario. Only the top end SKU of CPUs in the same generation and core/thread count configuration is named, others share the same rating. Zen scales down frequency and voltage according to EDC (current limit) and TDC (thermal limit) settings of the motherboard so in theory you won’t cook the VRM of any board at stock, you just lose frequency. AM4 (Athlon 2xx, Ryzen 3, Ryzen 5, Ryzen 7, Ryzen 9) Tier S 300A current draw on little ambient airflow (i.e below a big air cooler in a well-ventilated case), maxed out 3950X on liquid nitrogen (LN2) overclocking Asus: X570 Hero Gigabyte: X570 Aorus Xtreme MSI: X570 Godlike Tier S- 250A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 3900X on liquid nitrogen (LN2) overclocking Asus: X570 Strix-E, Pro WS Ace, Impact, ITX Asrock: X570 Taichi, Phantom Gaming X, Creator Gigabyte: X570 Aorus Master MSI: X570 Creation, Ace, Unify Tier A 200A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 3950X on ambient cooling, 2700x on LN2 Asus: X570 Strix-F, TUF Plus, Prime Pro, Prime-P, X470 Crosshair VII Hero, X370 Crosshair VI Extreme Asrock: X570 ITX/TB3, X470 Taichi (Ultimate), X370 Taichi, Professional Gaming Gigabyte: X570 Aorus Ultra, Pro (ATX), X470 Gaming 7 MSI: X470 M7 AC Tier B 160A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 3900X, 3950x at 1.3V on ambient cooling, maxed out 1800X on LN2 Asus: X470 Strix-F, X370 Crosshair VI Hero, Strix-F Biostar: X570 GT8, X470 GT8, X370 GT7 Gigabyte: X570 Aorus Elite, ITX Tier C 125A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 2700X, 3900x at 1.3V on ambient cooling (P95) Asus: X470 Strix-I, B450 Strix-I, X370 Prime Pro Asrock: X570 Extreme4, Steel Legend, Pro4 (ATX & mATX), Phantom K4 Gigabyte: X570 UD, Gaming X, X370 Gaming K7, Gaming 5 MSI: X570 Gaming Pro Carbon, !X470 Gaming Pro Carbon, !B450 Gaming Pro Carbon, Tomahawk (& Max), Gaming Plus ATX (& Max), A Pro (& Max), Mortar (& Max), Gaming Plus mATX, Bazooka Plus, Gaming Plus ITX, X370 M7 ACK, XPower Titanium Tier D 100A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 1800X and 3700X, a tad more than maxed out 2600X, maxed out 2700X in ambient cooling (Cinebench R15) Asus: X470 Prime Pro, B450 TUF Pro, Strix-E, X370 Strix-I, B350 Strix-I Asrock: X470 Master SLI, K4, ITX, !B450 K4, Steel Legend, ITX Gigabyte: X470 Gaming 5, Ultra Gaming, B450 Aorus Pro (ATX), Aorus Elite MSI: X570 A-Pro, Gaming Plus, Edge, !X470 Gaming Plus, Gaming Pro, B450 Pro-VDH (& Max & V2), Bazooka (& V2), X370 Gaming Pro Carbon, Krait Gaming, SLI Plus, Gaming Plus, Gaming Pro, B350 Gaming Pro Carbon, Krait Gaming Tier E 75A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 1600X and 3600X, a bit more than maxed out 2500X Asus: X470 TUF Plus, B450 Strix-F, TUF Plus, Prime Plus, X370 Prime-A, B350 Strix-F, Prime Plus, TUF Plus Asrock: X470 Master SLI, K4, B450 K4, Steel Legend, Pro4, M/AC, HDV, X370 Gaming X, Killer SLI, mITX, K4, Pro4, B350 mITX, Pro4, K4, HDV, AB350M Biostar: X470 GTA, GTQ, GTN, X370 GT5, GT3, B350 GT5, GT3, GTN Gigabyte: B450 Aorus M, Gaming X, DS3H, ITX X370 Gaming K5, K3, 3, Gaming, DS3H, !B350 Gaming 3, Gaming, DASH, DS3H, AB350N Gaming-WiFi MSI: B450 Pro-M2 (& Max) B350 Gaming Plus, Tomahawk, PC Mate, Bazooka, Mortar, Pro-VDH, Pro-VH Plus, Pro-VD Plus Tier F 50A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 1300X Asus: B450 Prime-K, Prime-A, B350 Prime-A, Prime-E, Prime-K Asrock: B450 HDV R4.0, B350 HDV R3.0, HDV R4.0 Biostar: X570GT, B350 B45M2, HiFi B350S1, ET2 Gigabyte: B350 D3H, D3V, HD3, DS2 MSI: B450 Pro-M2 V2, B350 Gaming Pro Tier H2O Liquid cooled only VRM, terrible if cooled only with air, tier S if liquid cooled Asus: X570 Crosshair VIII Formula Asrock: X570 Aqua Tier W Workstation features, can appear here and above tiers Asus: X570 Pro WS Ace (ECC certification) Asrock rack: X570 D2I, D4U-2L2T, X470 D4U (ECC cert + KVM switch), D4U2-2T (ECC cert + KVM switch) AMD (TR4, Threadripper) Tier LN2 700A current draw under mist of liquid nitrogen and high RPM fan (ambient air? unrealistic), maxed out 2990WX under an awful lot of liquid nitrogen Asus: Zenith Extreme Alpha MSI: Creation Tier S 500A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out (1.35v) 2990WX on ambient cooling (P95), 2970WX on liquid nitrogen Asus: Zenith Extreme Alpha MSI: Creation Tier A 350A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 2970WX on ambient cooling (P95), 2990WX limited to 1.175v (P95) Gigabyte: Aorus Xtreme Tier B 300A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 2970WX on ambient cooling (Cinebench R20) Asus: Zenith Extreme with cooling kit Tier C 250A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 2950X on ambient cooling, 2970WX limited to 1.15v (P95) Asus: Zenith Extreme MSI: Gaming Pro Carbon AC, SLI Plus Tier D 200A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 2920X and 1950X on ambient cooling Asus: Strix-E, Prime-A Asrock: Taichi (mATX & ATX), Professional Gaming Gigabyte: Gaming 7, Designare EX, Aorus Pro Tier E 150A current draw on little ambient airflow, maxed out 1920X on ambient cooling Asrock: Phantom 6 Intel (1151 v2, 2066) Tier S Extreme overclocking (i7oc, i9oc) Asus: Maximus XI extreme, Maximus X extreme, Rampage VI Apex, Rampage VI, Maximus XI Gene, Maximus X Apex, Maximus XI Apex EVGA: Dark Gigabyte: Aorus Xtreme (WaterForce), x299-aorus gaming 9 MSI: MEG Godlike, MEG creation Tier A High-end gaming (i5oc, i7oc, i9oc) Asrock: Taichi (ultimate) (xe), x299-Extreme4, Phantom Gaming 9, x299-fatal1ty (xe) EVGA: FTW, Classified K, Micro Gigabyte: Designare, Aorus Master, z390-Aorus Ultra, z390-Aorus Pro, z390-Aorus Elite, Aorus Gaming 7, x299-gaming 7 (pro) MSI: M7, MEG ACE Tier B Mainstream gaming (i5oc, i7oc) Asus: zxxx-Strix, x299-strix, Maximus XI Formula/Hero/Code, Maximus X Formula/Hero/Code, zxxx-Prime-A, X299-TUF, X299-Prime Deluxe Asrock: Phantom Gaming ITX/6/atx-ac/, zxxx-Fatal1ty, z370/z390-Extreme4 Biostar: Z370GT6 Gigabyte: z390-Gaming SLI/plus/m gaming, Gaming 5, x299-aorus gaming 3 (pro), x299-aorus ultra gaming, x299-aorus ultra gaming pro MSI: zzxx-Pro Carbon, Edge, MPG, M5, Krait, x299-sli plus NZXT: N7 Tier C Value gaming (i3, i5, i7) Asus: hxxx-Strix, bxxx-Strix Asrock: zxxx-Pro4, Phantom Gaming 4, ATX/ac, Killer/SLI, hxxx-fatal1ty, bxxx-fatal1ty, Bxxx-Pro4 Gigabyte: Gaming 3, UD4, z390-UD MSI: Tomahawk, Mortar, Gaming Pro, bazooka, hxxx-pro carbon, Gaming Pro, Raider, zxxx-SLI plus Tier D Basic (pentium, celeron, i3, i5) Asus: TUF, Prime-P, Prime-Plus, Prime-C Asrock: hxxx-Pro4, HDV, DGS, HDVP EVGA: Stinger Gigabyte: D3, XP, HD3, DS3H, N-wifi, s2p, n, m h, d3, S2, DS2V, HD2 MSI: A-Pro, PC-pro, Gaming Plus, Pro-VDH, Pro-VD, Pro-VH, Pro-D, Pro-VHL, Pro-VL Tier W: Workstation (i7, i9) Asus: WS Pro, WS Sage Supermicro: CGW-O notes Sources:
  12. Credit to: @GoldenLag, @XR6 Disclaimer: This list only covers the GTX 1000 series, GTX 1600 series and RTX 2000 series for Nvidia, RX 500 series, 5700 and RX Vega for AMD. Cards are not prefered between AMD or Nvidia or any brand listed here. Notes may be included with some of the cards. Tiers are based on facts. We rate on known problems, vrm and cooling capacity. List is subject to change at any time, due to change in sources available. Italics: estimated possition *=best blower cards (use vapor chamber cooling) AMD (RX 57XX) AMD (RX 5XX) AMD (RX VEGA) Nvidia (RTX 20xx/GTX 16xx) Nvidia (GTX 10xx) Useful links: Notes: Update Log:
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