Saccaed

TLDR; IC Graphite is Panasonic Soft PGS. Both perform identically. Soft PGS can be bought in large sheets and runs ~10% the cost of IC Graphite. Soft PGS(IC Grapite) performs best under the most clamping force as can be safely used for any application(for my laptop, increased clamp force resulted in 4c cooler temps). Cut to fit the clamped surface(extra margin does not perform better). Soft PGS does amazingly well at normalizing temps between cores(2c delta for normal clocks, 4c for extreme overclocking). The material is completely reusable and is great for experimenting; so far I've pulled and replaced the heat sink ~20+ times without any degradation. Do insulate any immediately nearby components as PGS is very electrically conductive.
 

Inspired by the LTT IC Graphite Thermal Pad video I've been researching graphite and graphene products with the goal of overclocking my laptop even more. Panasonic PGS looked interesting due to it's price and claimed properties. I ordered the most conductive sheet listed for immediate order, 0.025mm EYG-S121803, along with a sheet of 0.5mm Arctic MX-2 silicone thermal pad. I ordered the Arctic thermal pad in anticipation of emulating some example use of the PGS material (TUfast racing using the Pyrolytic Graphite Sheet).
 
Before making changes I ran some heating and cooling tests using Prime95 set to run "Small FFTs" mode with 8 threads. I also set the laptop fans to max.
 
The laptop is an EVGA SC17 1070 and for all tests the clock and voltage were kept the same. This first set of tests show performance using IC Graphite in place of the shipped thermal paste(good stuff). The tests I ran to compare IC Graphite to the shipped paste we're not valid for side by side comparison, but a long term test confirmed IC Graphite to perform within 1-2C of the shipped thermal grease.

 
A preface is needed before going into the modifications. Through overclocking and stress testing of the CPU and GPU I found the CPU to be capped by heat and the GPU by power delivery. The GPU peaks roughly 20C below the thermal throttle threshold which began me wondering if I could find a way to wick more heat from the CPU over to the GPU. The cooling solution for the laptop already has a crossover heat pipe that runs from the CPU die, over the GPU die, that passes through both GPU heat syncs. With that in mind the modifications went as follows...


 
Test 1 involved folding up the PGS sheet I received and spanning it between the CPU and GPU dies. After watching a showcase video put out by Digikey I wondered if the sheet alone could improve thermals and found out that it can't. I didn't bother running a more in depth test after discovering that the CPU couldn't handle the previous overclock and would only stabilize below 100C around a 31x multiplier.

Above is how I mounted the folded PGS sheet. The results were lackluster.
 
Test 2 involved skinning one side of Arctic thermal pad with the PGS sheet, then coating the backside of the laptop cooling solution in hopes that cooling performance would improve. This idea came from seeing existing variations of PGS products that already came configured with silicone thermal pad backed with PGS sheet and a short clip from a video demonstrating a real world application of PGS in electric race cars.

This configuration seemed to yield measurable results. So I repeated exactly the tests I performed before attempting modification(prime95, 8 threads, Small FFT, fans set to max).

To consider changes in ambient temperature between the before and after tests, I calculated the ambient temperature for both tests looking up a temperature chart for the day. Testing before PGS application happened at 11am and the calculated ambient is 15.5C. Testing after PGS application happened at 8pm and the calculated ambient temperature is 14.8C. Between tests a calculated 0.7C delta.
 
Analyzing data between the tests, what sticks out for me is the 3C drop in temperature across the CPU and GPU while testing the PGS application. The ambient temperature of the PGS test was 0.7C lower, which to me does not account for all of the observed cooling.

Testing does seem bear out that the PGS + Arctic application did manage to normalize temperature between the CPU and GPU 0.9C; observable, but not dramatic or conclusive. What I failed to test was the Arctic thermal pad without applying the PGS to the back surface. The PGS material is quite fragile and I don't want to attempt separating it from the Arctic thermal pad now that they are stuck together. As a result, I can't know if the arctic pad or PGS played more of a role in the results.
 
Suggestions for improvement are welcome. The rule for this project is no materials that need regular replacing to maintain performance(no thermal grease).
 
Hopefully my testing will be useful for someone.
 
UPDATE 2018 06 13
After looking into Panasonic Soft PGS I found a graph comparing thermal conductivity and mounting pressure that interested me.
 

 
Seeing that my heat syncs are held firm with sprung screws, I wondered if I could shim the springs with washers to increase mounting pressure. I ended up testing 2 configurations each adding 1 washer as a shim. The first test was great with 1 washer shim, the second test was a complete failure as I could not maintain a cool enough temp to even test(I figure that the heat sync began to warp and the contact surface shrink).
 


 
I performed the same Prime95 tests with the same clocks. Absolute CPU temperature dropped from 91C to 87C (4C delta). CPU GPU temperature delta dropped from 24.1C to 17.7C (6.4C delta) while under load. CPU GPU temperature delta normalized back to 19.5C while cooling after load (before PGS 19.7C measured, after PGS 20.1C, after washer shims 19.5C measured).
 
Update 2018 09 02
First, I changed how I built up material around the CPU die by using wider tape then cutting out the die area for fitment; before the tape was built up using many pieces of smaller tape(I didn't have wide tape at the time). I changed the tape application after noticing the uneven imprint left behind on the old piece of Soft PGS. The new application yielded improvement over the old application at the time of testing(4C) but when I compared to the first tests with the previous application there only was a 1C improvement. This has me wondering if there is some change over time that the Soft PGS material is experiencing. I'm fairly confident in the consistency of mounting as I tested many configurations over the course of the day and most yielded no improvement and an exact repeat of the previous tests. Don't know what to make of today's results, going to test again in a couple months with another new piece of Soft PGS to see if I can repeat the observations.

I also tested stacking two layers of the Soft PGS material as a goof. The results were bad, not recommended.
 
Update 2018 09 06
Found improvement by trimming the Soft PGS to fit the die and eliminating the buildup that maximized contact between a larger PGS sheet and the cold plate. I still used a single layer of tape for insulation.

Prime 95 temps dropped from 87C to 84C. My gaming overclock temperature changes were dramatic in comparison, 96C to 81C before and after previous testing.

Very interested in this project. Will contribute where possible.

Very interested in this project. Will contribute where possible.

Very interested in this project. Will contribute where possible.

Very interested in this project. Will contribute where possible.

I'm not worried about using liquid metals; it's not my first build. I'm interested in the water cooling honestly for the fun of building it since I know I don't need it and at that point I'll definitely be using the best interface I can find. For now I'm just curious.
Anyway I'll leave it be, I generally lurk and only wanted to say I appreciate the reading material.

No, i would like to keep data consistent AND keep it in one thread.
 
So, Panasonic have got two new products:
 
1. Multilayer PGS (ML-PGS?);
https://eu.industrial.panasonic.com/products/circuit-thermal-protection/thermal-protection/pyrolytic-graphite-sheet-pgs/Multilayer-PGS#overlay-context=products/circuit-thermal-protection/thermal-protection/pyrolytic-graphite-sheet-pgs/Multilayer-PGS
 
2. Thermal Storage Sheet (TSS).
https://eu.industrial.panasonic.com/products/circuit-thermal-protection/thermal-protection/pyrolytic-graphite-sheet-pgs/thermal-storage-sheet#
 
ML-PGS is basicly few layers of 0.025mm PGS with 0.05mm adhesive layer. This wasn't discovered before, but it's perform interestingly since it decrease hot spot size.
 
After some time use PGS in laptop i no longer sure that PGS should be "cut to die size". Heat from small die is concentrated on same small area. I think bigger PGS with adhesive layer which stick to heatsink may perform better (spread heat from small die to heatsink). ML-PGS is good opportunity to test this idea.

I only joined to say thank you for this thread. I found it a month or two ago and thought it was useful then but to have y'all come back to it and continue making meaningful posts is just awesome.
I don't have much to add myself other than I'm planning a new cpu/motherboard/ram combo to upgrade my q9550 finally so I'm considering thermal interfaces. I think I'll get some PGS and see what's what. Not going to try any real overclocking until I can afford to water cool. Looking at https://www.arrow.com/en/products/eyg-s0909zlx2/panasonic a 90x90x0.2mm sheet for about $20. That multi-layer stuff is interesting.

I wonder. Is the underlying Linux being run headless? 2 vms and 2 gpus, normally a gpu for linux is needed as well.

Lmao this is common knowledge I thought. How else would there be so many Xfinity hotspots?
 
Can agree the data cap sucks, but equipment is on you. I buy my own. Not having to pay a stupid rental fee is enough reason to.

It's a security risk to Amazon profits LOL

I wonder. Is the underlying Linux being run headless? 2 vms and 2 gpus, normally a gpu for linux is needed as well.

I don't think I've read such an elitist comment in a long time lmao

Whaddya mean? Taran uses Windows for editing all his 1000+ videos:
 
And these too:
.

Im wondering the same. Normaly they give some hints about the software used. Sadly there is no hint, how they pulled off.

I finally got round to testing the 500um graphite pads. It performed worse than the 100 and 200 um pads, over-temperature in OCCT in barely 2 minutes (see graph for performance). Which I guess is to be expected, given the extra thickness.
 
On balance, I think IC Graphite got it right with going with the 200um thickness pads. While 100um seems to perform marginally better, it is also much less robust to handle (easily bent). And Thermal Grizzly seems to get it right with respect to the thermal performance. Graphite pads are fine for everyday use, but definitely not for extreme overclocking or stress testing overclocked CPUs. 
 
In fact, I've kind of left the 500um in there, since the temps are about the same during regular use, 37-40C idle, 55-61C during gaming (with 29-31C ambient).
 
 

I think you will find it hard to do much better than die perpendicular mounting pressure. Maybe if the mounting center point can be shifted and the perpendicularness remains unchanged, some gains may happen. For example, differing screw tension tends to create a gradient of conductivity when done in a way that is biased for a corner or edge.

Incorrect!
 
EYG - Pyrolytic Graphite Sheet (PGS Only);
EYGA - Taping PGS (with adhesive or Insulation + adhesive or high heat resistance);
EYGE - Thermally conductive elastomer (semi-sealing material - SSM);
EYGS - soft-PGS (Compressible Type) later re-named in "GraphiteTIM";
EYGT - Graphite-PAD.
 
For our use best fit only EYG (PGS Only) and EYGS (soft-PGS\GraphiteTIM), since they offer best (of all products) thermal conductivity.
 
Unfortuanly, it can't fill micro gaps like usual thermal gease do it. I think problem with PGS\soft-PGS density. It have good thermal conductivity (26 W/m*K for 100um PGS-Only), but low density (0,85g/cm3). If we look Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut there is 12,5 W/m*K and 3,7 g/cm3 OR Conductonaut - 73 W/m*K and 6,24 g/cm3. If you look results from Carbonaut review - there interesting thing: less density - higher temp (mostly). So, we need something that have both: very high thermal conductivity (W/m*K) and very high density (g/cm3). First will help to fast trasfer heat, another - fill smallest micro gaps between CPU\GPU die and heatsink.
 
I even starting to think, that *CNT array is a bit extreme variant, need to step back. Close to current best solutions - LMs, maybe start from adding liquid *CNT in them to boost thermal conductivity. I saw interesting Foxconn patent where they combined LM and *CNT Array. LM was filled inside array to fill all gaps, but it requied special lab equipment and methods (PVD or CVD). Regular user can't do it by himself, also he can't buy it - very expensive and will be made for order with waiting period.
 
That way solution may sound crazy - custom made LM (DIY Liquid Metal) + test addition or complete new formula... maybe same Galistan (In + Ga +Sn), but made of nano particles to boost density.

Compressible type PGS (EYGS) is what you want for die to heat sink contact. The other types do not perform well for die to heat sync applications. In theory the thinnest sheet of EYGS that conforms well is what will perform best, in practice a thicker sheet will perform more consistently across applications.
 
Conformity and pressure are going to be the focus of any application. In my desktop setup, the mounting is easy to modify by inserting additional shimming washers to increase mounting pressure. Compared to my laptop, the desktop reduced temps double from pressure alone(could also mean that the desktop cooler had lesser compression to begin with). That video goes over well issues that laptop applications will have to consider. Between my two laptops, one has a much better cooler and motherboard design which allowed for easy repeated modification. My lesser laptop could be tinkered with as well, but any tinkering likely would take 3x longer per modification. My easier to work on laptop still required a fair amount of procedure discovery to achieve repeatable improved results.

This is how package look's like. Bag and flat box inside with instruction and certificate of origin.
 
Finally some actual tests of Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut:

 
Source: https://vonguru.fr/2019/05/13/test-carbonaut-thermal-grizzly-flop-ou-bonne-surprise-partie-1/
 
Very similar to IC Graphite.
 
So, look's like our next stop will be... CNT array - yes, carbon nanotubes arrays. Single walls, Multi walls (whatever). I saw their price... not in next 10 years ($450-900 for small piece). VERY expensive.

Here is another test, but with small mod to cooling system of my laptop (i called it Kapton Mod):
 

 
Heatpipe of GPU go throught CPU heatsink base and there is possible chance that GPU heatpipe MAY transfer heat to CPU heatsink base OR CPU heatpipe. So i isolated (wrapped) GPU heatpipe in one layer of Kapton tape to block any heat transfer at this area.
 
Conditions:
1. Cold start of laptop;
2. Running ThrottleStop with BD Prochot enabled and set multiplier x32 on all cores (if GPU temp will be more then 52°C - CPU will NOT throttle);
3. Running O.C.C.T Test;
4. Room temp.: 27°C.
 

Max core #1 temp was 97°C (so, lower on 2°C AND higher frequency on 200 MHz). Lowest core temp was 89°C (core #0 and core #3). Again, lower on 1°C AND higher frequency on 200 MHz.

GPU temp also lower on 2°C.
 
I runned test when i did mod (few days ago), but got Error on CPU #1. Only today's attempt everything was fine, i don't know why.

The spacers provided ensures a fixed distance from the cold plate to the motherboard, which I guess is to prevent over tightening. I've already tightened it all the way down. The only way I can increase the mounting pressure is to find alternative spacers. 
 
In the mean time, I've actually found some generic branded graphite pad that's 0.5mm thick but has a Z-axis conductivity of 13 W/(mK). I just got them today, will test them out to see how they perform. Hopefully the thickness may mitigate some of the mounting pressure issue.

too bad they removed it from the extension stores
 
that's pretty funny he's saying hardware is thermal-throttled on a well-cooled PC the same way it will always be thermal throttled on a mac

I just got a sheet of EYG-S0909ZLX2. I cut it to 40x40mm and replaced the 40x40mm sheet of IC Graphite I had gotten for my Ryzen 2400g, OC'd to 3.8GHz and under a Cryorig H7 cooler. I actually think this performs better than the IC Graphite, they aren't exactly the same. On idle, my CPU temperature dips to as low as 31c. After stress testing with Prime95, it gets up to 69c. With the IC Graphite it was 32-70. I am by no means some kind of perfect tester, though. I am terrible at putting my Cryorig H7 on, so the sheet might not be on as good as it could be. I would like to see more tests done with Panasonic PGS types as well as this Carbonaut sheet, which I hope doesn't turn out to be just a rebranded industrial product like IC Graphite was.

Here it is!
 
https://www.caseking.de/en/search?sSearch=Thermal+Grizzly+Carbonaut
 
Not in stock now, but there are some pictures of a box and material itself.
 
25 x 25 mm (GeForce RTX 2080) — €9,90;
32 x 32 mm (Intel LGA115x) — €9,90;
31 x 25 mm (GeForce RTX 2080 Ti) — €10,90;
38 x 38 mm (Intel LGA20xx и AMD AM4) — €12,90;
51 x 68 mm (AMD TR4) — €25,90.