sof006

Honestly, having watched both channels for a long time, I hope that Linus will take Steve's criticism at face value and learn from what he's saying here. Because, he's hitting the nail pretty dang center.
 
LTT's informative value for me has dropped a lot over the years. They truly have become the Top Gear of tech channels, where you don't watch for actual reviews, you watch for fun, while GN, HardwareUnboxed, and several others have taken the technical lead. 
 
Another comment noted that it seems Linus has built a team which does unfortunately tend toward this attitude. LTT has other voices, like Luke and Ivonne who have more neutural takes, but more and more, they seem to be taking a back seat to the actual content being put out. It's fine if you want the channel to represent these kinds of views, but having put a lot into LTT Labs over the past year, realize that you are moving into a space where that neutral tone is not only expected, but also necessary. If the point of Labs is to provide hard data, it has to be accurate.
 
Some of this almost feels like it's Linus's past of not finishing his degree coming back to haunt him. He has a very intuitive feel for how to shoot videos, write scripts, get views, but the hard technical side has always eluded him. By comissioning the Labs and claiming all the things he hopes it will accomplish, this is exactly the kind of thing he's not equipped to manage. There's a lot to be said against the need of a college degree in the current world, but for science and engineering roles, you definately need some kind of background there, or at least show the willingness to put the time and energy aside to learn it. I just don't think Linus has that patience and it really holds him back sometimes in understanding why a lot of the hard techy audience cares for the accuracy and methdology that someone like GN has really focused on over the years.
GN's not perfect either, but they're constantly showing they're taking steps to improve or learn more. 
 
I haven't seen that level of commitment from Labs yet, and every video released with yet another mistake, or typo, or rushed mis-step only pushes it further from that level of respect LTT is striving for. In short, I think the tech audience in general accepts that everyone all make mistakes. But show us you're also willing to learn from them. You can blame GN for not giving you a heads up, sure, but that's not addressing his points, which are pretty clear and concise.
Do better, and we all win here.

It might be easy downplay it as insignificant if you're not the one with a smaller company. 

@LinusTech
First of all, thank you for the prompt response. Unfortunately, the answer has only deepened my disappointment and further eroded my trust in LTT. The comment about the pitchforks particularly struck a chord. I believe this highlights that the issues raised have been a concern for many in the community for some time. Responding with disappointment doesn't help anyone.
 
If the topics Steve raised were truly non-issues, the community's reaction, especially here, would be different. Reading Linus's statement, I got an even stronger impression that he's losing touch with the community. It seems he's looking down from his ivory tower, unable to understand the discontent among his followers.
Since the union incident (which I'd like to leave aside as there might be cultural differences at play), I've noticed more and more statements and behaviors characteristic of people in power, who aren't often contradicted on an equal footing. Linus claims he's always open to feedback and that anyone can approach him, but being in such a position means recognizing that mere words aren't enough.
 
Listening to the interviews with the staff, it's a recurring theme that they all wish for better quality and more time. This begs the question: why isn't this feedback being escalated? Given the number of employees who've voiced this concern, there shouldn't be any difficulty in garnering support for it unless such concerns never reach the top where decisions are made.
 
LTT boasts a host of capable employees, and it's clear to me that they're deeply passionate about their work. However, I feel that the management is falling short, and Linus is losing touch not just with his employees, but more crucially, with the community. I hope someone like Luke will sit down with Linus and explain to him why a "trust me bro" attitude no longer works and why he can't react to community criticism with disappointment.
 
I'm glad GN released the video, giving the community an avenue to express their feelings and concerns and ensuring they're heard.

Steve said and I quote - "LMG has put one of a kind block up for auction". Whether it's for charity (which I think most of the people who watch GN nad LTT know it was) or not is irrelevant. So it the fact that you've compensated the Billet Labs. It shows a bigger issue within the company that's mixed up with lower video quality.
 
Billet Labs didn't just lose money on this but a great, functioning prototype. It's priceless in engineering. Don't be that guy that says "I compensated them for it, it's fine". Own it and apologize publicly.
 
Regarding reviews mistakes- you've said you're improving a bunch of times now and I don't doubt that. But at the same time you cannot use that argument for everything, especially with so many viewers onboard. It shouldn't be that every time you make a mistake (and there were quite a few recently) you just go "whoops...but...but... we're getting better". At some point it just starts getting old and stops being true (The phrase "Labs has tested..." became pretty much meaningless). Just focus at one thing at a time. Correct video procedures, testing procedures, instead of making a thousand new things at once. How can you trust in new things being good when old things are broken?
 
I think that GN did an excellent journalistic job and brought up something that a non-insignificant amount of the community was thinking but didn't have a medium to speak out (and making a forum thread by some rando' wouldn't be it). Putting aside his personal relationships and speaking what he believes in is IMHO a mark of a true journalist.
 
As I said in my previous post in the thread - I'll still be watching LTT but at the same time I want it to be the best version of itself. That's probably a lot to take in but everything that's being said is valid and should be evaluated.

That kinda sounds like an excuse for sloppiness right off the bat.
 
If it's not done, then why is it being utilised? Keep the Lab to one side until it can provide a genuine benefit to LMG. You wouldn't release the screwdriver with a bad ratchet and then release a V2 6 months later, so why is the labs able to turn out sloppy work now?
 
To regular viewers maybe. You have over 15m subs, but not 15m views per video, which would indicate from your subs alone not ALL of them take everything in. There is no point saying on one channel that the Lab isn't up to speed, and then using the "when we sent it to the lab" line on another like it's an authority on the matter. So far as comms goes, again, its sloppy.
 
 
I think this seems to miss the point some are making on this. Did it REALLY matter in this isolated instance? No. Should it have passed QC before being put live to a potential audience of 15m subs+new viewers? Also no - again, sloppy. And it wasn't isolated. Also, one of the points is that the accuracy of your testing isn't wholly reliable either. If the on screen specs and the testing data is wrong often enough, then why would anyone take an LMG videos word on it if/when it is accurate? 
 
 
On this we agree. To be inaccurate would at least involve the pretence to being accurate in the first place, whereas using a 3090 block on a 4090 doesn't even pretend to be accurate. Personally, rather than inaccurate, I would call the whole video, response, and attitude to Billet as misrepresentative. The practicality of the block and the conclusion that you wouldn't recommend it would almost certainly stand if it was tested competently, but the route taken to the conclusion instead, and the dismissive tone (which is subjective, granted) did not come off well. When Facebook very first started, there was nothing about it in the early days that anyone would have picked up on to say it would become a multi-billion valued company. But if another company did a piece to millions of people saying it was pointless, useless, and then doubled down on it, while also reviewing it as a dating site because they got their whole prep, planning, and organisation wrong, it maybe never would have (and frankly I wouldn't miss it, but that beside the point). It just came across as a wilfully lacklustre video taking a dump on Billet.
 
FYI, that's still a sale. Money to charity or not, but the wider world has no knowledge on any of this situation, so I'll zip it on that one.
 
I thought the $500 was the issue? What you say here doesn't sound dismissive and I do genuinely believe it. To a degree. Just admit you goofed on a video, and the video output numbers trumped video accuracy/quality in this instance. 
 
 
So when Steve publicly points out flaws, errors and other issues with LMG, it's a disappointment, but when it's you calling out Billet it's tough love for them to do better? Pick a side. Either advocate for tough love, or the softly-softly approach.
 
Agreed.
 
That feels like an open goal, but I'm not going to take it...
 
 
If your having issues often enough to discern them as 'regularly' then again I think some inwards reflection could be used here. It wasn't always the way. I've been watching since 2015, and whilst I don't expect dildo racing to return any time soon, some care for the final product and not just the numbers would definitely be noticed. More channels+More videos does not = more quality. More numbers, maybe, but if that's what matters, LMG will need to roll with the punches.
 
Yes, I hope so. But saying it doesn't reach anyone, the final product proving it does. Plenty of opportunity for that.
 
1000% - honestly, as much as Steve's video had valid points, it appears to be an excuse for people to vent issues that apparently have been with some people for a long time. At the very least, it could be a jumping off point to address issues, a lot of which may not even have been widely known or accepted in LMG HQ.
 
 
Did the CEO of Billet send you that?

What was nonsensical about his post? Nothing in the GN video was particularly hyperbolic. LTT has thus far done an abominable job of addressing any of the criticisms levied against them. This isn’t pitchforks, people have a right to be concerned and to voice those concerns.

I just finished watching the Gamers Nexus video and found the presentation well thought out and troubling for LTT.  I spent my working career in the pharma industry and am well acquainted with problems regarding bad or misleading data.  The fact that obvious discrepancies can find their way into posted videos speaks to very poor quality control.  I am not a consumer of much of what LMG posts to YouTube, pretty much just relying on the forums for answers to technical questions and also providing assistance where I might be able to. 
 
Bottom line - spend some time on quality control and review; slow down and your work product will be better.

This video has brought to light a lot of the issues with LTT, and the problems facing the company recently.
 
Regardless of what your stance on the video is, it's undeniable that LMG did some awful things to Billet labs, and not only do they deserve an apology for what happened to them. Selling a prototype piece of hardware in an auction is one thing. But the company made it clear they needed it back, and in doing so LMG may have entirely screwed a smaller company, after they already spoke poorly of them in a previous video. The auctioning of the prototype was just a swift kick to balls, after a cruel and unusual slap to the face and it's one that not only should Linus apologise for, he should also be doing everything in his power to personally recify if he has any semblance of integrity. This doesn't just reflect poorly on LMG, it reflects poorly on his management of the company and the company culture that something like this could even happen in the first place.
 
Although on the note of the video I would like to point out that Steve has a point about LMGs bias towards sponsors and companies they have a good working relationship with. In the past Linus has been openly critical of sponsors that have decreased the quality of their products or have had major changes in management that shifted the reliability of the company. In the past LMG has dropped sponsorships with Tunnel Bear and Cheero all because of their new management and drops in quality. Likewise in the past LMG has made the impression that they listen to the community and are quick to call out anti-consumer practices in the tech space. Or being critical of poor customer support provided by companies who they've previously spoken well of.
 
But that seems to go out the window when Asus is the one on the chopping block. In the recent customer support video, Asus gave some truly awful tech support, yet Linus still ranked them highly despite the fact the actor calling them had to outright give them the solution. Asus should have gotten an automatic fail, but again they were highly ranked and Linus spoke decently of them. In the thread made by Plouffe discussing customer support issues people have had, many people have pointed out bad experiences with Asus customer support, myself included, and yet as far as I'm aware, none of this has been mentioned in a follow up. Likewise in that same thread, many other people mentioned having Asus products fail spectacularly, again myself included. But nothing has ever come out of this, nor has Linus giving a follow up really addressing the concerns or the bad experiences people have had with the company.
 
I'm not suggesting Linus go out of his way to burn bridges or anything by insulting the company. But the fact that Linus and LMG in general have kept Asus as a sponsor despite people having major issues with their quality control recently feels a little disengenuous. I get that they're sponsoring LTX, but after the fiasco with Asus motherboards and Ryzen 7000X3D chips, I feel like LMG should have at least mentioned it and been openly critical of Asus for letting an issue like that happen. Rather than just keeping them as a sponsor and entirely dancing around the dead CPU shaped elephant in the room
 

How can you comment about what you don't know? Watch the video then return when you've seen it.

Omg you've missed the whole point....

Linus has always been a bit of a prick. I remember they were reviewing some MSI z79 or z89 board and Linus told “Slick” off in a rather rude manner. E  Even left it in the video. I’m sure that’s never changed behind the scenes, but that’s also why I said the channel lost its soul when Luke went to do Floatplane. It’s Linus’ name on it, but it was Luke’s personality that made it.
 
I’m not saying is solution was bad. When he was first outlining it, one of the thoughts going through my head was that it was probably the best that he could afford. But that doesn’t mean it meets the same standard I feel he layed out for Linus. I think it’s hypocritical, even if the alternative was impractical.

Might screw LMG too, in the long run. What Corp, in their right mind, is going to send their products to LMG Willy Nilly after this? Things are going to be a lot more locked down and structured so far as product samples go. 

Criticism =/= Attack and if GN wanted to attack ltt I doubt he'd spend 45 minutes going over points

Can't help but agree with Steve's points. I already had a concern watching the "working for lmg" videos where the overwhelming feedback was "I wish we didn't have to go so fast". And I remember watching some of those videos that were highlighted, granted I didn't catch the cooler temp deltas, but I did see the techquickie video that kept having to Asterisk so many of it's points for bad maths, and at one point I had said to a friend "Why didn't they just cut to b-roll and re-record the voice for this?"
 
I like LMG, I like the fun janky project videos, and frankly with their budget it means they're able to do what some can't, but I can't ignore what's being brought up in this video, and I already had problems with the amount of corrections and asterisks being put in.
 
If they want to be taken seriously for accuracy in testing, they also need to be willing to forgo their metics and remove wrong videos.
 
Also the Billet Labs thing is unforgivable. Auctioning off something that wasn't yours, that's been specifically requested back, not cool, they definitely need to publicly address that. And I'd go further and say they need to reach out to who bought it, even if it's a general call out on social media and buy it back for Billet.
 
What I'll be interested to see is... do they invite Steve onto the WAN show? Would they dare? And would Steve show up? Because it's honestly in Linus' best interest to squash this immediately. These are legitimate concerns.

I love how they stated they watched 5 mins only to then go on prove all of Steve's points perfectly....

For the most part, Steve kinda points out something I've seen myself watching the videos and a disconnect between what's said and what's being done. They say they want more accuracy, but I've noticed inaccuracies and corrections in pretty much every video, sometimes it's pretty bad.

It doesn't really matter when it happens on one of those lighthearted filler videos about watercooling a PC with a car or silly tech gadgets from Ali Express, but the actual reviews of legitimate products being done in Labs NEED to be combed over for inaccuracies and NEEDS to be retested when ones are found. Otherwise what's the point of building Labs in the first place?
 
And the Billet Labs thing is just unacceptable across the board, I don't care where the money went, they quite possibly the company before it even had a chance. And that "I didn't want to spend $500 to get accurate data" response always sat wrong with me.

Tiptoeing, being careful how to present his data and word his critique against LTT or products highly endorsed by LTT.
If Steve was anywhere, before this, to go "LTT is completely wrong", there would have been huge backslash from the LTT fanboys, the biggest tech channel that mainly goes for the entertainment and so caters less media literate people who have hard time understanding that their messiah/idol/bro Linus would lie to them.
 
Like you remember when the today sports drink seller and boxer cracked jokes about people who had ended their lives while walking around a forest where many people go to end their lives?
Before the main media started to call him asshole for it, a lot of his fans went completely frenzy against YT channels and people calling that guy an asshole and demanding shift response from YouTube. That's how, kind of, "retarded" people can be and why GN has needed to word his critique carefully. Like there is probably a ton of people right now writing how "evil" and "wrong" GN is for publishing that video and we can probably see from socialblade or somewhere how many of those people are unsubbing GN for calling Linus out. Like this forum taking mainly the more mature stand and even joining calling Linus out isn't something exceptional, but go and look at Twitter and YT and you can find those who are calling GN out for dirtying LTT.

Out of all the things, this is the thing I am most concerned with, I am still concerned about all of the other points made in the video. However what LMG/LTT did here, its not right, with all the horrible things he said about the product (even though it was his fault for not following their explicit instructions), then doubling down and not apologising when called out for making these blatent errors, to then auction something that was not there's to auction. He's not only verbally discredited this company which has likely ruined them, but also gotten rid of their only known working prototype which he had absolutely zero right to do.

Remember like...3 days ago when Linus complained about a prototype backpack showing up a thrift store?

You missed the entire premise and core content of the video.
 
You should watch the whole thing.

You should watch the whole video

I see a lot of comments are upset that Steve took this public however I agree with his choice. A lot of you dedicated folks will follow LTT on every possible platform, their yt coummnity page etc. Don't forget that there is a very large audience out there that plays these videos as "2nd monitor content". We don't have the time to go back and check if what they said was actually correct, monitor community and forum pages for video corrections etc. and LTT has clearly shown that they will not post videos like "Here's what we got wrong this month".  I didn't even notice half of the mistakes and corrections that Steve showed and damn that's a lot. Personally no matter the outcome of this I'll still be an ltt viewer because I learn a lot from the content and it's really enjoyable to watch but this video from Steve has shown with proof from LTT's own posts and corrections just how much inaccuracies their videos contain so it's increased the level of skepticism that I have when watching LTT videos, which I think is one of Steve's goals with this videos apart from it being a call to action for LTT.

The most important issue I'm watching to see how they handle is the Billet Labs situation as that is massively f*ed up. Given the size of the company I can see how it could happen without malice but that still doesn't excuse such a massive blunder and it needs to be rectified immediately. 

Edit: If anyone from LTT reads this comment I'd recommend that in the future, once per month at least to go over that months content, check for errors, and then make that process itself content by uploading them in a separate video. This way it makes sense to pay someone to specifically check for errors (a job made much easier post posting the video 😄 as there's often community feedback on videos) and you have a chance to also make some more money from the correction video.

a lot of people have been critical of linus / ltt over a number of things, but individuals won't get traction.
 
Steve Will.  It requires someone like him to call out an issue and actually have something happen from it.

I don't think that LTT would have tested an EK 3090 cooler on a 4090 so why did Billet Labs get the short end of the stick here? The Video should never have been released and it should have been stopped the second that they figured out that it was the wrong GPU. Doubling down on it took it from in the moment oversight to incompetence and then auctioning the water block took it from incompetence to malice. LTT needs to make a system to ensure that this doesn't happen again and if they try to play the victim here there needs to be a fan protest of some sort because like Linus likes to say that we're his boss so lets leverage that against him.

The part where it is alleged LTT auctioned off a prototype water block they promised to return is troubling. That requires an official response.

For the large majority, GN is correct. The thing that sticks out to me has been the extremely large increase in * corrections. * this and * that. They need to let their foot off the gas a little. They're moving too fast and breaking things too quickly, catch my drift?
 
However, in my personal opinion, part of the video, in regard to sponsorship, seemed a bit more personally driven, rather than fact-based. But besides that, LTT needs to ensure accurate data. I will 100% back that. 
 
Hopefully, Linus and LTT will take a moment to reflect before rushing to any statements or any off-handed remarks on the WAN show on Friday.