Surge Protectors

[Dautin]

Hi guys,

 

I was wondering what the recommended amount of joules of protection I should get in a surge protector.

 

Thanks.

[W-L]

Hi guys,

I was wondering what the recommended amount of joules of protection I should get in a surge protector.

Thanks.

As long as it's a good quality unit usually higher is better most have a minimum of around 2000Joules theses days, I usually recommend this one from APC, others from Belkin, Philips and the lot are also great:

http://www.amazon.com/APC-P11VNT3-Performance-SurgeArrest-Protection/dp/B0012YFXSW

[Dautin]

As long as it's a good quality unit usually higher is better most have a minimum of around 2000Joules theses days, I usually recommend this one from APC, others from Belkin, Philips and the lot are also great:

http://www.amazon.com/APC-P11VNT3-Performance-SurgeArrest-Protection/dp/B0012YFXSW

 

Cool, thanks.

[watts300]

Cool, thanks.

Slightly cheaper and still a name brand.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000J2EN4S/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1444328223&sr=8-1π=SY200_QL40&keywords=belkin+surge+protectors&dpPl=1&dpID=31%2B7EG-TqxL&ref=plSrch

I have two of those.

[Dautin]

Any suggestions on UPSs? 

 

I will be running one computer that probably draws 250W from wall (not sure on that) and three aps, one switch, and one router.

[W-L]

Any suggestions on UPSs? 

 

I will be running one computer that probably draws 250W from wall (not sure on that) and three aps, one switch, and one router.

 

What is your system exactly I can get you a better idea of what you need but something like this 750VA unit is capable of 450W which will have more than enough for the system and peripherals.

http://www.amazon.com/APC-BE750G-Back-UPS-10-outlet-Uninterruptible/dp/B000Z80ICM/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444329963&sr=1-1&

[Dautin]

What is your system exactly I can get you a better idea of what you need but something like this 750VA unit is capable of 450W which will have more than enough for the system and peripherals.

http://www.amazon.com/APC-BE750G-Back-UPS-10-outlet-Uninterruptible/dp/B000Z80ICM/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444329963&sr=1-1&

 

Well I have multiple access points that will be POE using POE injectors (not sure on the wattage).  The switch uses 58 W under max load, the router uses something like 15 W.

 

As for the computer itself, it will be being used as a server so the only thing that will need to be powered is the computer itself (no monitors, keyboards, or anything like that).  It probably pulls about 250 W.  

 

Those are the only items that will be utilizing a UPS.  That way it allows the network to stay up when the power is down and enough time to power down and save stuff on the server.

[W-L]

Well I have multiple access points that will be POE using POE injectors (not sure on the wattage).  The switch uses 58 W under max load, the router uses something like 15 W.

As for the computer itself, it will be being used as a server so the only thing that will need to be powered is the computer itself (no monitors, keyboards, or anything like that).  It probably pulls about 250 W.  

Those are the only items that will be utilizing a UPS.  That way it allows the network to stay up when the power is down and enough time to power down and save stuff on the server.

Yeah that UPS will give you more than enough overhead and then some for everything.

 

If you want a smart UPS since you are running a server it can safety shutdown the PC if the battery level runs down too low or a certain time from an extended power outage.

[Dautin]

Yeah that UPS will give you more than enough overhead and then some for everything.

 

If you want a smart UPS since you are running a server it can safety shutdown the PC if the battery level runs down too low or a certain time from an extended power outage.

 

Thanks for your help.

[westom]

I was wondering what the recommended amount of joules of protection I should get in a surge protector.

 

 

Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules.  A protector adjacent to electronics must either block or absorb that surge.  How does its 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not?  it doesn't.  At 2000 joules, it only absorbs 670 joules and never more than 1330 joules.  Where is the protection?

 

Adjacent protectors only claim to protect from surges that are typically made irrelevant by protection that is already inside appliances.

 

Protection exists when you can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  Nothing from Belkin, APC, etc will even discuss hundreds of thousands of joules ... let alone make a product that protects from this other and destructive surge.

 

Companies with integity include Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Intermatic, Ditek, General electric, ABB, and Square D.  Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector from companies of integrity is 50,000 amps.  And this is most important.  That proven solution also has a dedicated wire for a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground.  

 

Again, where do hundreds of thousands or joules harmlessly dissipate.  Earth ground.  Protection means a surge is harmlessly connected to and absorbed by earth WITHOUT being anywhere inside a house.  Then superior protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

 

A Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) protector sells in Lowes ahd Home Depot.  These proven solutions (essential to protect near zero Belkin and APC protectors) are also available in electrical supply houses and on the internet.  Your cost for the proven solution is about $1 per protected appliance.  How many times more is an APC or Belkin - for near zero protection?

 

BTW, APC recently admitted some of their protectors are so dangerous as to be removed from the house immediately.  Protectors so undersized as to create house fires.  Be concerned.

 

UPS does not do surge protection.  That is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  UPS does not do hardware protection.  Specifications list even less joules.

[Dautin]

Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules.  A protector adjacent to electronics must either block or absorb that surge.  How does its 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not?  it doesn't.  At 2000 joules, it only absorbs 670 joules and never more than 1330 joules.  Where is the protection?

 

Adjacent protectors only claim to protect from surges that are typically made irrelevant by protection that is already inside appliances.

 

Protection exists when you can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  Nothing from Belkin, APC, etc will even discuss hundreds of thousands of joules ... let alone make a product that protects from this other and destructive surge.

 

Companies with integity include Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Intermatic, Ditek, General electric, ABB, and Square D.  Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector from companies of integrity is 50,000 amps.  And this is most important.  That proven solution also has a dedicated wire for a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground.  

 

Again, where do hundreds of thousands or joules harmlessly dissipate.  Earth ground.  Protection means a surge is harmlessly connected to and absorbed by earth WITHOUT being anywhere inside a house.  Then superior protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

 

A Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) protector sells in Lowes ahd Home Depot.  These proven solutions (essential to protect near zero Belkin and APC protectors) are also available in electrical supply houses and on the internet.  Your cost for the proven solution is about $1 per protected appliance.  How many times more is an APC or Belkin - for near zero protection?

 

BTW, APC recently admitted some of their protectors are so dangerous as to be removed from the house immediately.  Protectors so undersized as to create house fires.  Be concerned.

 

UPS does not do surge protection.  That is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  UPS does not do hardware protection.  Specifications list even less joules.

 

Can I get a link to one that you would recommend?

[W-L]

-SNIP-

 

I'm not sure where your getting most of your information from but most surge protectors are only a intermediary device to help prevent damages to devices, usually from sudden changes or spikes in power not for full lighting strikes, devices like you point out as whole house protectors are designed for situations like those. Even with surge protectors hardware can fail from sudden power loss which is why UPS's are fairly popular in preventing data loss and damage to hardware, they have a low surge rating due to the fact they can immediately act by going to battery backup whenever bad or dirty power is detected by disconnecting themselves.

 

The APC units that were of issue were a couple of years ago when brought up, the units were those manufactured older than 2003 were placed on recall the new ones now are not a problem.

[westom]

I'm not sure where your getting most of your information from but most surge protectors are only a intermediary device to help prevent damages to devices, usually from sudden changes or spikes in power not for full lighting strikes, devices like you point out as whole house protectors are designed for situations like those.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but damage must never occur from sudden power loss and other such anomalies.  In fact, "damage from sudden power loss" is a first indication of technical naivety.  If knowledge comes from designing, standards, basic electrical knowledge, or experience tempered in logical thought, then one would never foolishly conclude that power loss causes damage.  But that myth is popular.

 

UPS is recommended to protect hardware ONLY because advertising said so - subjectively.  This separates the informed from the naive.  The informed demand specification numbers.  And the informed would say what internal part is damaged by power loss.  Why does nobody define an 'at risk' part?  Because it does not exist.  Power loss never causes hardware damage. 

 

APC easily manipulates the naive with subjective claims.  That hardware protection myth comes from a subjective expressions that only says "protection".  It does not say protection of what from what - with numbers.  Then wild speculation assumes that must be "hardware protection".

 

UPS does one protection - temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  It does not protect hardware. And outputs some of the 'dirtiest' power. Robust protection inside all electronics even makes 'dirtiest' UPS power irrelevant (see 2nd to last paragraph).

 

If 'hardware protection' exists, then a number that defines it.  Why no number?  That protection is 'believed' - not defined.

 

All appliances contain robust protection. Concern is for an anomaly that can overwhelm existing and robust protection.  Facilities that cannot have damage earth a 'whole house' protector.  So that all types of surges are made irrelevant - will not overwhelm protection inside every appliance.  At about $1 per protected appliance, it is clearly the superior solution.  BTW, did you notice THE most important verb in that sentence?  Earth.

 

Spikes cause damage?  Good.  Let's see the numbers.  International design standards (long before the PC existed) defined spikes at 500% of line voltage - without hardware damage. Today's electronics are even more robust.  Numbers even say how robust.

 

UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  Otherwise a UPS would even be required on every clock, smoke detector, and dishwasher.

 

Did I mention 'dirtiest' power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode?  Tech Tip 3 from an AC utility.  Leftmost waveform is power directly from AC mains - when not in battery backup mode.  Notice 'dirty' UPS power is when it switches to battery:

  http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp

Fortunately all electronics already contain robust protection so that even 'dirty' UPS power does not cause hardware damage.

 

You also recommended a near zero 2000 joule protector ... knowledge only from advertising.  You never learned about destructive surges - ie hundreds of thousands of joules.  Advertising from near zero protectors would never discuss surges that typically do damage. It says where your knowledge comes from.

[W-L]

-SNIP-

 

Ok I'm not going to argue with you on this since many points you have are correct there are a few such as the UPS having dirty power is not correct, modern and good quality UPS's do not use squarewave based waveforms, they use stepped approximated or regular sinewaves which do not have a problem with PSU's theses days and provide cleaner power than from the wall during problem periods.

 

In regards to power loss it's in terms of data where if power loss occurs it can potentially damage the HDD even though the likely hood is low, data loss or corrupt is a very real world problem where UPS's come in use.In real world use case and as said previously any lightning strike even with surge protectors and UPS's can potentially fail to protect devices since they may not sustain that type of load or surge, the whole home protector as you point out is the best solution for those types of scenario

[westom]

In regards to power loss it's in terms of data where if power loss occurs it can potentially damage the HDD even though the likely hood is low, data loss or corrupt is a very real world problem ...

My first HDDs were large boxes - some even moved disk heads with motor oil.  Power loss never damaged a HDD - even back then.  In fact, disk drives learned about a power off when DC voltages started dropping.  Disk drive processor then had plenty of time (milliseconds) to stop any writes and protect itself.  No drive knows of a power off until it already starts.

 

Over 20 years ago, if the one file was not written to disk, then that file was lost.  AND an original saved copy was also lost.  This was not hardware damage.  This was a weakness in early filesystem designs - and eliminated by better software designs decades ago.  Power loss does not cause HDD damage.  Did not do damage even decades before the IBM PC existed.  But that myth lives on.  UPS to protect HDD hardware has always been a myth.

 

 

Square wave or stepped wave - both are 'dirty' UPS power that is potentially harmful to motorized appliances.  My reference to square waves is really about all 'simulated' sine outputs.  Since all (and spikes associated with stepped waves) are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves, then subjective advertising calls that UPS a 'pure sine wave' output.  They can claim anything subjectively.  Only valid claim comes with spec numbers.

 

Motorized appliances (ie laser printer, refrigerator) is best not powered by a UPS - due to its 'dirty' output when in battery backup mode.

 

Bottom line - even a 'dirtiest' UPS is not harmful to electronics.  Because electronics already have robust internal protection.  Power so 'dirty' as to be problematic for small electric motors is also good power for electronics.  A UPS does not protect hardware.  Existing robust hardware makes irrelevant less 'dirty' power from AC mains and 'dirtier' power from a UPS in battery backup mode.  That is the point.  Even if a UPS 'cleaned' AC mains, well, protection already inside electronics appliances made cleaning irrelevant.

 

Meanwhile, what happens inside electronics?  Any incoming clean or dirty AC power is intentionally made 'dirtiest'.  Well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes.  Then superior 'cleaning' regulators and filters already inside electronics clean that 'dirtiest' power. What does a UPS add when electronics already contain superior filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation?  Nothing.  Best protection is already inside electronics - to even make dirty UPS power irrelevant.

 

OP asked about protection from something that can overwhelm that existing and superior protection. UPS does not.  Nothing adjacent to an appliance even claims such protection.  Protection must be located where transients enter - at the service entrance - within meters of single point earth ground.  Only a 'whole house' solution is always implemented when damage cannot happen.  Everyone here can and should install same - for tens of times less money than a UPS or plug-in protector.

 

UPS does not even protect disk drives 50 years ago.  That protection has been standard in disk drives for that long.

[W-L]

Ok without going further off topic, to the OP in general the surge protectors like the Belkin Phillips and APC ones discussed will fulfill the needs your looking for to a reasonable amount.

[westom]

... surge protectors like the Belkin Phillips and APC ones discussed will fulfill the needs your looking for to a reasonable amount.

The Belkin or APC do not even claim that protection.  They claim to protect from surges mostly made irrelevant by protection already inside electronics.  The OP asked,"I was wondering what the recommended amount of joules of protection I should get in a surge protector."  Protection make hundreds of thousands of joules surges irrelevant.  A 2000 joule APC or Belkin does not even come close.  Then why are they so expensive?

 

And then create other problems - such as compromising protection already inside computers. Yes it can even make damage easier.

 

If APC is so good, then why did their new owners announce so many APC protectors must be removed immediately due to fire.  Other protectors (such as Belkin) are similar in design.  What happens when a hundreds or 1330 joule APC protector tries to absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?

 

Belkin or APC  is an inferior recommendation.  Made by ignoring numbers. OP is strongly advised to properly earth one 'whole house' protector - to protect everything including refrigerator, dishwasher - and especially smoke detectors. For tens of times less money.  Even Belkin or APC (near zero) protectors need that protection.

 

Belkin and APC clearly cannot do what the OP has asked for.  Both were recommended by ignoring all numbers and 100 years of well proven science.  But so many believe the myth.  It must be true.

[Dautin]

You both have valid points.  I'm just looking for the UPS as a battery backup to keep my network up and running if the power was to go out for a few minutes, not for surge protection.

 

SO what I get from this argument is that a whole house surge protector will give me the best protection.  I'm not really looking for protection from lightning because surges like that will blow through just about anything.  As W- L pointed out I am looking for a surge protector that will account for sudden changes or spikes in power. 

 

Thanks for all of your guy's help.

 

@W-L @westom

[westom]

SO what I get from this argument is that a whole house surge protector will give me the best protection.  I'm not really looking for protection from lightning because surges like that will blow through just about anything.  As W- L pointed out I am looking for a surge protector that will account for sudden changes or spikes in power. 

 

Protection from sudden changes, spikes, etc has long existed inside electronic even before an IBM PC existed. That protection is not needed because it has always existed.  That protection is also why a UPS output can be so 'dirty'.

 

Your concern is a transient that blows through superior protection inside appliances and lesser protection in Belkin and APC products.  Any protector that *blocks* is bogus.  Repeatedly stated: protection from destructive surges (lightning is but one example) means not blocking a surge.  Protection from lightning and other surges, for over 100 years, has always been about connecting that surge low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth.

 

Protection means a surge does not enter a building.  If anything needs protection, then everything needs that protection.

 

Destructive surges may occur once every seven years.  A number that can vary significantly even in the same town.  A number better defined by decades of neighborhood history to determine is protection (at $1 per protected appliance) is desired.

 

Properly earthed protection long existed on phone and TV cable.  But the most common incoming surge path is AC electric. A proven solution (even from direct lightning strikes) costs about $1 per protected appliance.  As proven by over 100 years of experience.  Again, it works because it does not *block* a surge - as a Belkin or APC must magically do.

 

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts.  Completely different from what was originally asked.  Blackout is a completely different anomaly that causes no hardware damage.  UPS addresses a blackout; not a surge.

 

UPS does not protect hardware.  Surge protector (effective and ineffective) does not provide temporary power during blackouts. Two completely different solutions for two completely different anomalies.

[Dautin]

Protection from sudden changes, spikes, etc has long existed inside electronic even before an IBM PC existed. That protection is not needed because it has always existed.  That protection is also why a UPS output can be so 'dirty'.

 

Your concern is a transient that blows through superior protection inside appliances and lesser protection in Belkin and APC products.  Any protector that *blocks* is bogus.  Repeatedly stated: protection from destructive surges (lightning is but one example) means not blocking a surge.  Protection from lightning and other surges, for over 100 years, has always been about connecting that surge low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth.

 

Protection means a surge does not enter a building.  If anything needs protection, then everything needs that protection.

 

Destructive surges may occur once every seven years.  A number that can vary significantly even in the same town.  A number better defined by decades of neighborhood history to determine is protection (at $1 per protected appliance) is desired.

 

Properly earthed protection long existed on phone and TV cable.  But the most common incoming surge path is AC electric. A proven solution (even from direct lightning strikes) costs about $1 per protected appliance.  As proven by over 100 years of experience.  Again, it works because it does not *block* a surge - as a Belkin or APC must magically do.

 

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts.  Completely different from what was originally asked.  Blackout is a completely different anomaly that causes no hardware damage.  UPS addresses a blackout; not a surge.

 

UPS does not protect hardware.  Surge protector (effective and ineffective) does not provide temporary power during blackouts. Two completely different solutions for two completely different anomalies.

 

And I never said that surge protectors do provide power during blackouts...

 

This arguing is silly, and I'm just going to leave now.

[Dautin]

Protection from sudden changes, spikes, etc has long existed inside electronic even before an IBM PC existed. That protection is not needed because it has always existed.  That protection is also why a UPS output can be so 'dirty'.

 

Your concern is a transient that blows through superior protection inside appliances and lesser protection in Belkin and APC products.  Any protector that *blocks* is bogus.  Repeatedly stated: protection from destructive surges (lightning is but one example) means not blocking a surge.  Protection from lightning and other surges, for over 100 years, has always been about connecting that surge low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth.

 

Protection means a surge does not enter a building.  If anything needs protection, then everything needs that protection.

 

Destructive surges may occur once every seven years.  A number that can vary significantly even in the same town.  A number better defined by decades of neighborhood history to determine is protection (at $1 per protected appliance) is desired.

 

Properly earthed protection long existed on phone and TV cable.  But the most common incoming surge path is AC electric. A proven solution (even from direct lightning strikes) costs about $1 per protected appliance.  As proven by over 100 years of experience.  Again, it works because it does not *block* a surge - as a Belkin or APC must magically do.

 

A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts.  Completely different from what was originally asked.  Blackout is a completely different anomaly that causes no hardware damage.  UPS addresses a blackout; not a surge.

 

UPS does not protect hardware.  Surge protector (effective and ineffective) does not provide temporary power during blackouts. Two completely different solutions for two completely different anomalies.

 

Furthermore, you are just repeating yourself again and again and that doesn't help me at all.  You have yet to link any of your sources and/or recommend a whole house surge protector to me.  

[westom]

And I never said that surge protectors do provide power during blackouts...

 

Nobody said that.  And nobody said you said that.  Why are you jumping to conclusions based in speculation?

 

You completely missed the point.  Each anomaly requires a different solutions.  No magic box addresses all anomalies.  Most wiill recommend a UPS or surge protector to provide temporary power AND do surge protection.  For the same reason some  recommend those near zero Belkin or APC protectors.  

 

Completely irrelevant is  what you said or what anyone feels.  Only thing relevant is the science.  UPS is for blackouts - nothing more.  Properly earthed protector is for destructive types of surges.  Belkin or APC protector is for surges that typically do not damage. That is the science.

[Dautin]

Nobody said that.  And nobody said you said that.  Why are you jumping to conclusions based in speculation?

 

You completely missed the point.  Each anomaly requires a different solutions.  No magic box addresses all anomalies.  Most wiill recommend a UPS or surge protector to provide temporary power AND do surge protection.  For the same reason some  recommend those near zero Belkin or APC protectors.  

 

Completely irrelevant is  what you said or what anyone feels.  Only thing relevant is the science.  UPS is for blackouts - nothing more.  Properly earthed protector is for destructive types of surges.  Belkin or APC protector is for surges that typically do not damage. That is the science.

 

Because I know that there is no "magic box" is why I asked for a surge protector, and THEN a UPS.  I only want a UPS for blackouts, and a surge protector to protect against surges.

[westom]

Furthermore, you are just repeating yourself again and again and that doesn't help me at all.  You have yet to link any of your sources and/or recommend a whole house surge protector to me.  

Sorry. But reality does not change.  Many are so attached to bogus hearsay that facts are only heard when repeated too many times. Repeated until one decides to challenge the science (and numbers) or to accept it.

 

First, I have decades of experience doing this stuff.  Most who recommend this stuff have no experience.  We even traced surges through equipment to learn from our mistakes.  Even demonstrated how plug-in protectors earthed a surge destructively through a network of powered off computers.

 

Second, need a citation? I am one. How do you know?  Statements included reasons why - and with numbers.

 

Should you want professional citations, be prepared to read five times more than this entire thread.  Are you really ready for reams of details?  Or we might start with what you were taught in elementary school science - Franklin's lightning rods.  Since proven solutions are based in those concepts.  Belkin and APC violate that science.

 

Third, should you want a proven solution, then more is required to define the 'art' of protection. Little has been said about this most critical component.  It is layman simple.  But numerous simple concepts must be discussed.  Yes I can bury you in citations.  Better is to discuss how this has been done by summarizing what professional citations demand.

 

Again, earthing is the 'art' of protection. No simple brochure can exist to explain it. Where would you like to  begin?

[Dautin]

Sorry. But reality does not change.  Many are so attached to bogus hearsay that facts are only heard when repeated too many times. Repeated until one decides to challenge the science (and numbers) or to accept it.

 

First, I have decades of experience doing this stuff.  Most who recommend this stuff have no experience.  We even traced surges through equipment to learn from our mistakes.  Even demonstrated how plug-in protectors earthed a surge destructively through a network of powered off computers.

 

Second, need a citation? I am one. How do you know?  Statements included reasons why - and with numbers.

 

Should you want professional citations, be prepared to read five times more than this entire thread.  Are you really ready for reams of details?  Or we might start with what you were taught in elementary school science - Franklin's lightning rods.  Since proven solutions are based in those concepts.  Belkin and APC violate that science.

 

Third, should you want a proven solution, then more is required to define the 'art' of protection. Little has been said about this most critical component.  It is layman simple.  But numerous simple concepts must be discussed.  Yes I can bury you in citations.  Better is to discuss how this has been done by summarizing what professional citations demand.

 

Again, earthing is the 'art' of protection. No simple brochure can exist to explain it. Where would you like to  begin?

 

I would like to begin with a recommendation of a whole-house surge protector and how I might ground it to the earth properly.  Will this whole-house surge protector only protect my house from outside surges, or will it protect my house from surges originating from high-powered appliances within my home such as a washer and dryer?

 

I would also like to apologize for being an ass about this whole thing, but I really don't like arguing since I have to deal with it on an almost daily basis with my friends.