Need DAC/AMP with sub pre-out

[johnt]

Hey guys. I need some help finding a DAC/AMP combo with a subwoofer pre-out (or two). It's for a 2.1/2.2 system. I'd appreciate something smallish... for example, I would prefer not to purchase a receiver. I'd like it to fit on my desk where space is a premium. I know a receiver will work, but I'd like to see what you guys can suggest as alternatives. I'm not too worried about budget.

[Hikaru12]

The main problem is that you would have to use the subs low pass filter which is not as refined as a receivers. The other issue is the DAC won't be able to control the volume. An amp/DAC only controls volume through the front headphone port as most people who use on are going to be using headphones.

 

Your best bet is to get a DAC with RCA jacks like the new revision O2 amp and connect them to your sub and then to your speakers. This isn't ideal since your sub will mess with the audio quality a tad. If you want something cheaper, just get a 3.5mm to RCA jack which will allow you to control the volume and plug them into the sub and go from there. 

 

Otherwise just get a powered speaker setup which usually has a sub out like the Audioengine A5+

[SSL]

I've never heard of one. Basically you'll need to connect your subwoofer and speakers to a preamp using a splitter or passthrough.

[johnt]

I've never heard of one. Basically you'll need to connect your subwoofer and speakers to a preamp using a splitter or passthrough.

 

I was looking at some Schiit the other day... but yeeeeeah they broke the bank. It seems only there monster amp for $1,700 is really meant for speakers. A majority of their products seems better suited for headphones.

[Hikaru12]

I was looking at some Schiit the other day... but yeeeeeah they broke the bank. It seems only there monster amp for $1,700 is really meant for speakers. A majority of their products seems better suited for headphones.

 

Don't buy their snakeoil. You could get by with a lot cheaper amps especially for a majority of cans, even Planars. For speakers, nothing really beats a quality receiver if you have the space.

[Stagea]

Hey guys. I need some help finding a DAC/AMP combo with a subwoofer pre-out (or two). It's for a 2.1/2.2 system. I'd appreciate something smallish... for example, I would prefer not to purchase a receiver. I'd like it to fit on my desk where space is a premium. I know a receiver will work, but I'd like to see what you guys can suggest as alternatives. I'm not too worried about budget.

 

I suggest looking at direct digital devices. That way you'd be down to a single device, and you'd have a shorter analogue chain.

 

Have you looked at the NAD C 390DD unit? It's a bit big for a desk, but it will keep those MTM-210 speakers well-fed. It also has a decent EQ to tailor the sound.

 

If you really need a small one, there's the NAD D 7050.

[johnt]

I suggest looking at direct digital devices. That way you'd be down to a single device, and you'd have a shorter analogue chain.

 

Have you looked at the NAD C 390DD unit? It's a bit big for a desk, but it will keep those MTM-210 speakers well-fed. It also has a decent EQ to tailor the sound.

 

If you really need a small one, there's the NAD D 7050.

 

-sexy pic-

 

Product:  hell yeah!

 

Price:  B)  :blink:  :wacko: hellllllll noo

 

The 7050 is a little more bearable. The 390DD... I'd have to return a subwoofer for that puppy. But sadly it's exactly what I'm looking for. Optical in, dual sub pre-outs, banana plugs, and amp all in one. I don't fully understand the information on the rear. Why 4 ohms if you don't bi-amp? The MTM-210 doesn't even let you bi-amp. Which means the 150w/channel on the 390DD would really be more like 50 to 75-ish. Am I crazy or sort of on the right path?

[Stagea]

Product:  hell yeah!

 

Price:  B)  :blink:  :wacko: hellllllll noo

 

The 7050 is a little more bearable. The 390DD... I'd have to return a subwoofer for that puppy. But sadly it's exactly what I'm looking for. Optical in, dual sub pre-outs, banana plugs, and amp all in one. I don't fully understand the information on the rear. Why 4 ohms if you don't bi-amp? The MTM-210 doesn't even let you bi-amp. Which means the 150w/channel on the 390DD would really be more like 50 to 75-ish. Am I crazy or sort of on the right path?

 

Direct digital amps are not cheap (at least not at this point). Prices have actually gone down quite a bit since there are now different brands with the tech (before it was essentially a Lyngdorf / TacT monopoly). I drool over Steinway Lyngdorf's home audio and home theater equipment.

 

This is a very simple way of looking at direct digital:

 

There are cheaper amplifiers with digital inputs, but they are still conventional designs. They just happen to have the DAC, the Preamp, and the Power Amp enclosed in one chassis. Oftentimes they also do not have a high pass feature on the main channels (they always run full-range).

 

The information on the rear of the C 390DD just says that the amp can drive one pair of 4 ohm loads, or two pairs of 8 ohm loads (in parallel, this would also equate to a pair of 4 ohm loads). It is essentially saying that each channel is 4 ohm stable. It is a 2 channel amplifier, so it will not bi-amp (hence the bi-wire indication). This amp can easily sustain a clean 165W / channel to 8 ohm loads (and 195W during transients), it will not be halved if you only use one pair of terminals. The 150W / channel rating is a conservative number.

 

The closest analogue equivalent I can find for the NAD C 390DD is the Parasound Halo Integrated, which costs more.

 

How much are you looking at spending for this?

[johnt]

Direct digital amps are not cheap (at least not at this point). Prices have actually gone down quite a bit since there are now different brands with the tech (before it was essentially a Lyngdorf / TacT monopoly). I drool over Steinway Lyngdorf's home audio and home theater equipment.

 

This is a very simple way of looking at direct digital:

 

There are cheaper amplifiers with digital inputs, but they are still conventional designs. They just happen to have the DAC, the Preamp, and the Power Amp enclosed in one chassis. Oftentimes they also do not have a high pass feature on the main channels (they always run full-range).

 

The information on the rear of the C 390DD just says that the amp can drive one pair of 4 ohm loads, or two pairs of 8 ohm loads (in parallel, this would also equate to a pair of 4 ohm loads). It is essentially saying that each channel is 4 ohm stable. It is a 2 channel amplifier, so it will not bi-amp (hence the bi-wire indication). This amp can easily sustain a clean 165W / channel to 8 ohm loads (and 195W during transients), it will not be halved if you only use one pair of terminals. The 150W / channel rating is a conservative number.

 

The closest analogue equivalent I can find for the NAD C 390DD is the Parasound Halo Integrated, which costs more.

 

How much are you looking at spending for this?

 

I'm struggling to find the specs on their website for the 390DD. Maybe I need to search more.

 

Does a direct digital amp really make that big of a difference?

 

I wanted to stay around $2,000 for the whole project. The speakers are $1,600 even, so about $400 for the amp. I was expecting to purchase a typical receiver or something. I hadn't even heard of a DDA device before you mentioned it. And the price tag is certainly not something I'm able to understand at this time since I've never seen or heard one before. I can justify an $800 speaker. But I can't even justify a $2,000 receiver for my theater. $2,500+ for a DDA?? EEEESH!

 

I'll youtube for some reviews or videos.

 

You know too much! 

[Stagea]

I'm struggling to find the specs on their website for the 390DD. Maybe I need to search more.

 

Does a direct digital amp really make that big of a difference?

 

I wanted to stay around $2,000 for the whole project. The speakers are $1,600 even, so about $400 for the amp. I was expecting to purchase a typical receiver or something. I hadn't even heard of a DDA device before you mentioned it. And the price tag is certainly not something I'm able to understand at this time since I've never seen or heard one before. I can justify an $800 speaker. But I can't even justify a $2,000 receiver for my theater. $2,500+ for a DDA?? EEEESH!

 

I'll youtube for some reviews or videos.

 

You know too much! 

 

It'd be hard to get a quality audio amp for $400 with a crossover for the sub. A used AV Receiver may be your choice with that budget (a higher end model, preferably).

 

If you won't be playing this system to fill the entire house with sound, then the MT-110 speakers and a better amp could even be an option.

 

I too was in your shoes when I started with audio. It quickly changed in a short period of time, however. I eventually ended with class A devices that burn power and some unreliable gear that costs quite some amount (for me) to keep. When I hit that point, I just had to turn back and return to the basics. I made some friends along the way (fellow hobbyists, dealers, etc.), so I still get to listen, experiment on and calibrate different gear without me spending a penny (their gear... LOL).

 

As for your question: Yes, good electronics make a difference (and this stands whether you have a DDA-based system or a conventional one). Whether it is enough for you to spend on it, is another thing (like PC parts, audio equipment offer diminishing returns as you go higher). Equipment matching and tuning matters more than the equipment, after all (as long as we're not talking about terrible equipment). Even million dollar systems (yes, quite a lot of them exist) need proper work to perform well.

[johnt]

It'd be hard to get a quality audio amp for $400 with a crossover for the sub. A used AV Receiver may be your choice with that budget (a higher end model, preferably).

 

If you won't be playing this system to fill the entire house with sound, then the MT-110 speakers and a better amp could even be an option.

 

I too was in your shoes when I started with audio. It quickly changed in a short period of time, however. I eventually ended with class A devices that burn power and some unreliable gear that costs quite some amount (for me) to keep. When I hit that point, I just had to turn back and return to the basics. I made some friends along the way (fellow hobbyists, dealers, etc.), so I still get to listen, experiment on and calibrate different gear without me spending a penny (their gear... LOL).

 

As for your question: Yes, good electronics make a difference (and this stands whether you have a DDA-based system or a conventional one). Whether it is enough for you to spend on it, is another thing (like PC parts, audio equipment offer diminishing returns as you go higher). Equipment matching and tuning matters more than the equipment, after all (as long as we're not talking about terrible equipment). Even million dollar systems (yes, quite a lot of them exist) need proper work to perform well.

 

I agree with that. Though $2,600 is a bit steep. Maybe I just don't know enough about it, but it seems a bit overpriced. The options are sort of lacking. It seems to me that customers are still paying for the research behind the product at this time.

 

I checked out local stores that carry the 390DD. I actually plan to stop by this weekend and check it out. I think spending some time with it might help. Maybe they can let me hear a comparison demo.

[xtroria]

It's not small, but yamaha AS-500 sounds like a good option. My old man uses AS-700 for his bose because apparently the passive sub takes a ton of power

[Stagea]

I agree with that. Though $2,600 is a bit steep. Maybe I just don't know enough about it, but it seems a bit overpriced. The options are sort of lacking. It seems to me that customers are still paying for the research behind the product at this time.

 

I checked out local stores that carry the 390DD. I actually plan to stop by this weekend and check it out. I think spending some time with it might help. Maybe they can let me hear a comparison demo.

 

That's a nice way to scout on other options as well. 

 

Here's a suggestion if you have an SUV or a van that can easily fit your new speakers: Take them with you to the dealer and have the dealer hookup different amps for comparison. Most audio dealers would be more than willing to oblige.

 

Some speakers are picky with amps, others are not. Certain speakers may also synergize with certain amps, so that is a good way to find out. You are bound to prefer a certain match. If the matching gear is inexpensive, then that's to your advantage. If the matching gear is not, then that is when you'd have to think about whether or not it's worth the extra outlay.

[johnt]

It's not small, but yamaha AS-500 sounds like a good option. My old man uses AS-700 for his bose because apparently the passive sub takes a ton of power

 

Shockingly, yes. Bose subs can take quite a bit of juice. I used to use one in my small home theater and I could never hear the damn thing.

 

 

 

That's a nice way to scout on other options as well. 

 

Here's a suggestion if you have an SUV or a van that can easily fit your new speakers: Take them with you to the dealer and have the dealer hookup different amps for comparison. Most audio dealers would be more than willing to oblige.

 

Some speakers are picky with amps, others are not. Certain speakers may also synergize with certain amps, so that is a good way to find out. You are bound to prefer a certain match. If the matching gear is inexpensive, then that's to your advantage. If the matching gear is not, then that is when you'd have to think about whether or not it's worth the extra outlay.

 

That's a really good idea. I think I'll put in my order for the 210s by the end of this week. I always seem to order stuff right before a three day weekend haha

[Stagea]

 

That's a really good idea. I think I'll put in my order for the 210s by the end of this week. I always seem to order stuff right before a three day weekend haha

 

Congrats in advance! 

 

If you're into live concerts of popular acts, like the club scene, watch action movies, play FPS games, etc. you'd love those speakers. Crossed properly, they should deliver excellent sonic contrast with low distortion.

 

Buyers have different priorities and good speakers can be nice in very different aspects. I consider those MTM-210 speakers as the Dodge Challenger Hellcat of speakers in terms of design; performance not through sophistication but through good fundamentals and lots of output. A Porsche Boxster may be more refined at the same price, but it takes less cargo and has a third of the output.

[johnt]

Congrats in advance!

If you're into live concerts of popular acts, like the club scene, watch action movies, play FPS games, etc. you'd love those speakers. Crossed properly, they should deliver excellent sonic contrast with low distortion.

Buyers have different priorities and good speakers can be nice in very different aspects. I consider those MTM-210 speakers as the Dodge Challenger Hellcat of speakers in terms of design; performance not through sophistication but through good fundamentals and lots of output. A Porsche Boxster may be more refined at the same price, but it takes less cargo and has a third of the output.

Thanks! I appreciate all the input today! Yeah I can totally buy nicer looking speakers, but the raw power is always a lot more fun! I don't know... The minimal style appeals to me.

I was also debating the SVS ultra towers. What are your thoughts on them? Might be bad voodoo crossing PSA subs and SVS speakers.

[Stagea]

Thanks! I appreciate all the input today! Yeah I can totally buy nicer looking speakers, but the raw power is always a lot more fun! I don't know... The minimal style appeals to me.

I was also debating the SVS ultra towers. What are your thoughts on them? Might be bad voodoo crossing PSA subs and SVS speakers.

 

You're always welcome.

 

The SVS Ultra towers also measure well, but need more power to provide the same output and are harder to position due to port output (unless you run them with a higher crossover point, which eliminates the advantage of towers).

 

If you're after slam, then the PSA should have the edge. Placement options and a smooth transition to the sub are also less of a problem, as these are sealed enclosures (less issues with boundary loading and group delay). Besides, if you found your Klipsch speakers tame, then you might find the voicing of SVS speakers bordering on dark (rolled off highs).

[johnt]

You're always welcome.

 

The SVS Ultra towers also measure well, but need more power to provide the same output and are harder to position due to port output (unless you run them with a higher crossover point, which eliminates the advantage of towers).

 

If you're after slam, then the PSA should have the edge. Placement options and a smooth transition to the sub are also less of a problem, as these are sealed enclosures (less issues with boundary loading and group delay). Besides, if you found your Klipsch speakers tame, then you might find the voicing of SVS speakers bordering on dark (rolled off highs).

 

After looking at the specs and construction materials/methods, your assessment seems pretty frickin' accurate.

 

I'll clarify that my Klipsch speakers weren't always so tame. They could be quite bright when I had a Klipsch R-12SW. They mixed well with the V1500. Sometimes the speakers were bright, sometimes the sub overpowered. But overall it was a great blend. The V1500 is well suited for most households. And with dual V3600i... as I would expect most speakers to be... they are having a hard time keeping up. The V3600i's can quickly overpower if I set the gain any higher than 30%.

 

PSA's 30 day return guarantee is also helps ease the struggle of an expensive purchase. At least I'm not married to them if I absolutely dislike the MTM-212s. The return shipping on the V3600i is not free, so for me, it was a one way purchase  like a bag of chips!

[Hikaru12]

Eh I think you should skip the NAD and go with a A/V receiver. You get all digital sources (optical, HDMI, etc), crossover switching, DAC, and it's a lot cheaper. You can even repair them if something goes wrong whereas something as small and compact as the NAD seems like it would take a professional to mess around. 

 

My 2 cents.

[Stagea]

After looking at the specs and construction materials/methods, your assessment seems pretty frickin' accurate.

 

I'll clarify that my Klipsch speakers weren't always so tame. They could be quite bright when I had a Klipsch R-12SW. They mixed well with the V1500. Sometimes the speakers were bright, sometimes the sub overpowered. But overall it was a great blend. The V1500 is well suited for most households. And with dual V3600i... as I would expect most speakers to be... they are having a hard time keeping up. The V3600i's can quickly overpower if I set the gain any higher than 30%.

 

PSA's 30 day return guarantee is also helps ease the struggle of an expensive purchase. At least I'm not married to them if I absolutely dislike the MTM-212s. The return shipping on the V3600i is not free, so for me, it was a one way purchase  like a bag of chips!

 

I look forward to what you think about them.

 

With enough power from your amplifier and the right crossover point, I think the MTM-210 should be able to keep up with the V3600i or the T-18 (both being monster subwoofers). 

 

If you're looking at midlevel receivers, the SC-1323 is now selling for $699 at Amazon. It doesn't have the most advanced processing, but it can push a decent amount of power (and is selling at a big discount).

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-1323-K-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B00D4MQ0UU

[johnt]

Eh I think you should skip the NAD and go with a A/V receiver. You get all digital sources (optical, HDMI, etc), crossover switching, DAC, and it's a lot cheaper. You can even repair them if something goes wrong whereas something as small and compact as the NAD seems like it would take a professional to mess around. 

 

My 2 cents.

 

It is a little too much at this time for me to accept. I'm certainly not rushing into making a purchase like this. I have a small little Onkyo receiver (with a CD player) from about five years ago. Surprisingly it has a sub pre-out and should provide enough juice for 98 dB sensitive speakers. I do need to use the crossover on my subs, but that doesn't bother me very much.

 

 

I look forward to what you think about them.

 

With enough power from your amplifier and the right crossover point, I think the MTM-210 should be able to keep up with the V3600i or the T-18 (both being monster subwoofers). 

 

If you're looking at midlevel receivers, the SC-1323 is now selling for $699 at Amazon. It doesn't have the most advanced processing, but it can push a decent amount of power (and is selling at a big discount).

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SC-1323-K-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B00D4MQ0UU

 

Holy mo mo that receiver. That power rating is garbage though. I wish these receiver companies would just standardize their testing and results. No one is going to think less of Pioneer if they can only output 300w instead of lying and claiming 1,000+ watts.

 

Problem with a receiver like this is that I might be inclined to buy more speakers. 7.2... I'm only using 2.2.... there's five other channels calling my name.

[johnt]

Is this Pioneer reduced so much because it doesn't have HDMI 2.0 or HDCP 2.2?

[Stagea]

It is a little too much at this time for me to accept. I'm certainly not rushing into making a purchase like this. I have a small little Onkyo receiver (with a CD player) from about five years ago. Surprisingly it has a sub pre-out and should provide enough juice for 98 dB sensitive speakers. I do need to use the crossover on my subs, but that doesn't bother me very much.

 

 

 

Holy mo mo that receiver. That power rating is garbage though. I wish these receiver companies would just standardize their testing and results. No one is going to think less of Pioneer if they can only output 300w instead of lying and claiming 1,000+ watts.

 

Problem with a receiver like this is that I might be inclined to buy more speakers. 7.2... I'm only using 2.2.... there's five other channels calling my name.

You can use your subwoofer's low pass filter alone as long as your amp is powerful enough. This is because running your main speakers full range will take more of the amplifier's headroom. Fortunately your speakers naturally roll off with no major change in phase (thanks to the acoustic suspension design), making them easier to integrate with the subwoofer (especially if your subwoofer's filter offers a shallow slope setting).

 

Mainstream AV Receiver brands often follow either EIA or FTC measurements. Most rate with 2 channels driven; besides most mainstream brand AV Receivers cannot deliver rated power to all channels simultaneously (there are unicorns like the extinct Pioneer SC-09TX that were made to buck this trend).

 

Is this Pioneer reduced so much because it doesn't have HDMI 2.0 or HDCP 2.2?

 

Not really reduced, but not updated enough over previous iterations. Pioneer's lower models now feature HDMI 2.0, but are cut down on other features.

[johnt]

You can use your subwoofer's low pass filter alone as long as your amp is powerful enough. This is because running your main speakers full range will take more of the amplifier's headroom. Fortunately your speakers naturally roll off with no major change in phase (thanks to the acoustic suspension design), making them easier to integrate with the subwoofer (especially if your subwoofer's filter offers a shallow slope setting).

Mainstream AV Receiver brands often follow either EIA or FTC measurements. Most rate with 2 channels driven; besides most mainstream brand AV Receivers cannot deliver rated power to all channels simultaneously (there are unicorns like the extinct Pioneer SC-09TX that were made to buck this trend).

Not really reduced, but not updated enough over previous iterations. Pioneer's lower models now feature HDMI 2.0, but are cut down on other features.

What is a shallow slope setting?

[Stagea]

What is a shallow slope setting?

 

Shallow slope, meaning a milder attenuation curve for the filter. Say 12dB/octave instead of a steep 48dB/octave.