Difference between Soundblaster Z "retail" and ... "bulk"

[GER_T4IGA]

Yes, I can see that the bulk version comes without the shiel but is it a nececessary component or does it even have ANY impact on performance by providing a shielding (from electrical interference) effect? I don't really know but I noticed the price difference. So I am wondering if it is just the looks of the soundcard.

[QueenDemetria]

Yes, I can see that the bulk version comes without the shiel but is it a nececessary component or does it even have ANY impact on performance by providing a shielding (from electrical interference) effect? I don't really know but I noticed the price difference. So I am wondering if it is just the looks of the soundcard.

I have the "OEM" SB Z, and it gets interference when my GPU is under load, but I have a Recon Fatal1ty with the shield that I haven't tried yet to see if the shield actually does anything. By Tuesday I should be home, I can test this for you if you want.

[GER_T4IGA]

I have the "OEM" SB Z, and it gets interference when my GPU is under load, but I have a Recon Fatal1ty with the shield that I haven't tried yet to see if the shield actually does anything. By Tuesday I should be home, I can test this for you if you want.

That would be extraordinary awesome if you could do that because that would exactly the scenario I am also worried about. Thank you very very much. Hope to hear from your soon (you can also just pm me)

[QueenDemetria]

That would be extraordinary awesome if you could do that because that would exactly the scenario I am also worried about. Thank you very very much. Hope to hear from your soon (you can also just pm me)

(finally got internet again!)

But ill be home on Tuesday, so what ill do I take the shield off of the Fatal1ty and put it on the Z and see if it fixes the interference issues. Then report back, and ill show you a trick if it doesn't fix it. Also I'm subbed to this thread, so ill just reply here

[QueenDemetria]

Well I just got back home and I am extremely tired, but seep can wait, I have science to do. So to start things off I want to point out that my testing isn't an ideal scenario, the shield I'm using is different from the standard SBZ shield, however I have a theory that it doesn't make a difference since the shield doesn't actually ground to the card, due to paint/powder coating blocking contact to the exposed ground pads on the card. Now, onto my system specs(well, the relevant ones):

 

CPU: AMD Athlon II X4 640 at 3.6GHz

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H

PSU: OCZ ModXStream-Pro (OCZ600MXSP)

Sound card: Creative SoundBlaster Z OEM(SB1500)

Case: Thin unbranded POS that resembles an Acer/eMachine(Note: Side panel was removed for the entire testing process)

GPU: MSI Geforce GTX 750 ti Twin Frozer edition(non 6 pin)

Additional parts used: Asrock BitCoin miner riser

 

Software:

Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64 bit

Nvidia Graphics driver 337.88(I know its old, but I replicated this with 347 in my initial testing)

Sound Blaster Z-Series driver + extras version 1.00.28 and 1.0(respectively)

The Sims 3 without expansions

My testing is simple. I have no FPS caps, I'm running the game at 1280x800, and the graphical settings are moderate, with everything maxed out with the AA set to its lowest setting. All audio was disabled, so the only sounds I was able to hear was the interference, and clicking around on the games interface. No music was played during the game or during the loading screen. For running the game, I watched the entire start up screen, then loaded a game I have been playing for a while. In the game, I left the ghameplay paused(which isn't actually paused since its still rendering the game) and did a combination of zooming, panning, and moving the camera around the map, which is Sunset valley btw. I chose this game since it causes the most amount of interference with my setup.

 

Audio gear: 

Super sensitive Sony IEM's(sorry, the model number is gone)

California Headphone Company Laredos

 

So now that I got that out of the way, let me explain my setup. The motherboard has a x1 slot on top, then a full 16x slot below it, so the sound card sits on top of the GPU essentially. My theory is that the two cards are too close, then interference happens. This is what my setup look like without modifications:

 

With this setup I hear two kinds of interference when running The Sims 3: The first one is the typical electrical “whine” sound that GPU's make. This is caused by loading screens and home screen, since they are not FPS capped and run at 1300-1600 FPS, no joke. Then the second kind of interference is the “popping” sound that associates with the normal FPS (which is 50-150 FPS in game). The tone of this sound varies with  FPS, lower FPS sounds lower pitched while higher FPS sounds higher pitched. Now time for the mods, here are the cards:

SoundBlaster Z OEM on the left, SoundBlaster Recon3D Fatal1ty edition on the right.

 

Now after the swap:

SoundBlaster Z OEM w/Fatal1ty shield installed on the left, SoundBlaster Recon3D Fatal1ty “naked” on the right.

 

And the SBZ “Fatal1ty” installed:

 

So did the shield help? Bluntly, no, not at all. In fact, it didn't make a single difference at all. And if you are curious, moving the audio cable around didn't make a single difference either(and I tried two cables, the stock crap one, and a shielded one from a better case, both sounded the same). 

 

So does this mean Myth Busted? I'd say so, adding a shield to a SoundBlaster Z doesn't affect interference protection at all. But if I am myth busting, I can't stop here can I? Well, moving on.

 

So the tests conducted above were both using the front panel audio jack, and while changing the front panel cable didn't change anything, I wanted to see if plugging the headphones into the back of the card wound change anything and well, it did. Basically with the Sony IEM's a majority of the interference went away, but there was still some interference(enough to say “meh...whatever”). The CHC Laredos were almost silent, with interference almost being inaudible(I have trained ears to hear this crap, most people won't hear this).

 

Is the back output really the solution? Or is there more at hand here? Well I want to answer some questions that I had in my head: “Is the interference even coming from VRM noise in the air? Or is it going through the PCI bus since they are sharing power?” “If I isolate the card from the rest of the system, will it change, go away, or stay the same?” Well I have just the thing to test this, a PCI-e riser:

Odd yes, but even though it uses SATA its still PCI-e, so lets give this a shot:

 

So now the card is almost completely isolated from the rest of the system, with the PCI-e bus, power, and ground only being within contact. Did this do anything? Actually yes, it completely fixed the problem, there was no interference at all with either of the headphones, and this was using the front panel jack as my source. This is where (for me) this myth comes full circle, since I knew the solution 4 weeks ago, before I messed with my system and upgraded it. My system 4 weeks ago consisted of a Pegatron M2N78-LA motherboard, a extremely power noisy GTX 550 ti, a 460w Cooler Master PSU(also very noisy electrically), and the same SoundBlaster Z OEM, without the shield.

Did it have any of the interference problems of the new and improved system? No, the interference was extremely minimal, if that even. This is why I wanted to test every variable, since I wanted to evaluate my hardware instead of drawing conclusions off of assumption like Logan from Tek Syndicate(woah shots fired!). So, what do I have to say?

 

Conclusion: Basically I just have to say this, if you are planning on modifying your SoundBlaster Z you aren't going to get any desired results(well, it does look pretty sweet, so there’s that). The best thing you can do is move your soundcard away from your GPU, assuming you can. If you have empty slots on a ATX motherboard or a mATX motherboard, choose the lowest slot for your sound card, even though the 1x slot above the 16x slot is very tempting. If you cant do this, then maybe invest in an external DAC, although be aware that these are also susceptible to interference too, like the GSM  interference that all 3 of my O2 DACs  suffer through(bought 1, RMA'd, then bought another, total of 3 had the same issue). If you are experiencing interference even after isolating your sound card, you might want to investigate your power supply, cause it could be an indication that its either poorly built/designed or on its way out.

 

To OP specifically, what is the specs of the rest of your system? I might have a recommendation for you if you have the same setup as my “interference maker”. If you(or anybody) has any more questions about my testing feel free to ask, and if you want me to test more stuff then I might be able to do so(just ask first). Any criticism will be welcomed as well, I'm just a tired human, mistakes can be made.

 

Welp that's it for me, I need to either get some sleep or re-evaluate my life, which is ironic considering the purpose of my recent trip...

[KaminKevCrew]

A couple of things... You should never use front panel if you're routing it behind the motherboard, or near any of the other components in the case, as that's likely where the interference is picked up. Since the cables run parallel, instead of being a four conductor braid, you get noise conduction. A sound card can't get rid of noise that doesn't involve it, which is likely the main reason you were having issues in the first place. You should always use rear IO as a minimum for audio gear. The other issue you can run into though, is the fact that USB also conducts power, and can pretty easily interfere with audio, which is why you need to keep those cables routed in different directions. The third and final thing I can think of is that a phone, or tablet, etc. could have caused some of the interference, as that's one of the most notorious producers of noise for audio gear. 

 

Of course, having it all as far separate as possible helps a lot, which is why many people opt for small desktop options, like O2/ODAC, etc. Although if you'll only be using headphones, optical is really the way to go (Or 2.x speakers) as it literally can't pick up interference once the signal leaves the PC. 

 

Oh, also, you can easily shield the Soundblaster. I think that the main issue it has is that the "shield" has a massive hole in it! I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure you're allowed to have small holes, as long as the holes are smaller than the wavelength of the interference... Don't quote me on that! But there is a reason that Faraday cages are allowed to have holes in them... Could you possibly retry that at some point, but scrape off paint so that it grounds to the card at the very least, or connect a wire to the case, so that it grounds there? And also, could you try taping some foil tape/regular foil to the part of the card where the huge plexi hole is to see if any of those make a difference? I'm really truly curious if I'm right on this, but I can't test, since I don't have any gear that interferes, unless my cell is near to my headphones...

[GER_T4IGA]

-snip-

First things first. Thank you very very much for writing this awesome long detailed and informative log of modifying your system.

Secondly I want to answer some of your questions.

I have an i7 3770k, gtx 770 twinfrozr, MSI GD 65 motherboard, PSU is BeQuiet! 630 watts(don't know exact model) cases in a Fractal Design Define r4. I Have some spare space to keep in between my graficscard and my Soundblaster (that I don't yet have). It then would be placed in the 4. PCI connector below the fans of my graficscard (so actually the 5. ).

Basically your conclusion is that the shield is pour eye candy, right?

With the amount of noise you overall experience would you even recommend an external DAC+AMP instead of a soundcard. Also in your specific case: the system feeds the soundcard which feeds your O2 which feeds your headset. Question 1 Why have do you have your soundcard at all? Question 2 What input/ connector do you use to "feed"(please give a more suitable term. I feal so dumb typing this all the time) your O2 (which is just an amp for high impedance headphones right - idk I just heard the name of it here and there and but I could even be making up that this one of those DACAMP-combo-thingies)

And I also have some answers and things to add to what kaminkevcrew said. I have interference with my USB cables. I can hear mouse movement once I plug in my headphones (in the back). But with one thing you seem to be wrong in my case. I have less base noise with my front jack and no to little interference issues. But still the base noise is to high to put the volume above 75 percent and have not playing any music or whatever. On higher levels with moderately loud music you can even pick it up while listening. This is unacceptable for me and since I want to upgrade my audio soliton it would become even worse then.

I am really tired so you will have to stick with what I got here. I will try to go over what a pile of useless phrases I gunked up here tomorrow and maybe edit my post or just ask some more questions depending on... You know....

Have a good night and again

THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR COMMITMENT. IT EAS GREAT FUN TO READ YOU POST AND I AM HAPPY THAT HELPFUL FRIENDLY AND COMPETENT PEOPLE LIKE YOU GUYS STILL EXIST ON EARTH.<--- no I find my self a little creepy. Let's stop typing and get some sleep you there( which is me ) good night. Finally.

Edit: which rig is the old one. Which one is the new one? Because I am a little confused about this. You can just go by numbers like pic1...3...5...4 and so on. Thanks

[QueenDemetria]

Hi guys, sorry for the late reply. I went on another unexpected trip again, so for now I will just address any concerns, comments, and suggestions, until I can get home and mess around with crap do science.

 

-snip-

 

So KaminKevCrew, I know the front panel isn't the most ideal jack for testing audio, but its the only port that gets interference, so I have to test it lol. The back port is basically interference free, with only tiny stuff passing through that most people wont hear(like I have to use my super sensitive IEM's to hear it). Speaking of the interference though, I have isolated it to the GPU being the main(and only for the most part) cause. I have tested it being the possibility of it being USB devices, SATA, fan wires, bad PSU, Wireless devices like WiFi/GSM/BT/etc. and the only time interference happens is when the GPU is under some kind of load. The interference even matches up with the GPU's activity too, with higher FPS causing a higher pitched “whine” and lower FPS causing a lower pitched “whine” and a more distinct “popping” sound.

 

Now that I think about it though, the VRM on my MSI GTX 750ti is located right next to the card(since they located it in between the GPU die and VGA outputs) but going through my photos I was running a very similar setup 4 months ago, but the only thing different is the GPU(HD 7770), which has the VRM on the opposite side of the card. That PC back then also didn't have interference issues, so I really have to wonder if that window in the shield is making the shield worthless. I have had good luck with separating the card from other components and this has fixed the interference for other builds, this is literally the first build with this card that has caused me problems. For this specific computer, I only use the Toslink input and output, but I don't mind doing science for other people .

 

But yeah I really think the shields giant “window” is letting the interference through, which I really have to wonder what Creative was thinking while designing this(or maybe they weren't? Lol). I'll do lots of testing though since I want solve this problem. I'll make a list of things to try when I get home:

 

• Scraping off the paint: I will definitely do this, and in fact, if it weren't for it being 3 AM when I did my  first set of tests I would have done it then, but it was 3 AM lol. I'm kind of an engineer, and when I saw that the shield doesn't actually ground to anything I about went insane lol. I'll just use my wire brush on my drill to scrape it off, should be easy enough.

 

• Faraday cage: I have just the thing for this! I have a ugly pen holder and paper holder that are made of a mesh that would be perfect for this, and now that I have a reason to hack them apart I will! Lol. I will first just cut a piece that will cover the window to see if that will fix anything(and ground it as well), but I that doesn't work then I will just cover the entire card. 

 

• Wire grounding: Yep, I will try things like running a wire from the (now “grounded”) shield to the case, and when I do the faraday cage I will run a wire for it too.

 

• Foil: Yessss!(I had this idea and lol'd because it sounds so fun) I will do the same things as above, so covering just the window, and if that doesn't work the covering the entire card. I will mess around with grounding this as well, so running a wire if needed.

 

• Metal sheet in between the two cards: I have a side panel that I stepped on and no longer fits on the case, so I'll donate it to science. I'll just make “splitter” in between the two cards just to see if this does anything.

 

I'll put anymore ideas here

 

-snip-

 

No problem GER_T4IGA, I love doing this kind of stuff You have plenty of space in both your case and motherboard, so separating the GPU from the soundcard shouldn't be a problem. In the classifieds I  found a PC with what you will need to do:

^ See, they have 3 spaces in between the two cards. This should be enough, and the PSU shouldn't cause interference either, since these things are supposed to be outputting “clean” power(and converting power in an efficient way). If the PSU does, then you can just move the could card up, since the heatsink on the GPU does a pretty good job at blocking interference.

 

But yeah, in a stock/non modified form the shield is basically worthless. Its different from the stock SB Z shield so I won't completely bash it, but with the big hole in both of the shields and lack of grounding, I imagine the SB Z's shield to be equally as useless. Looks cool though, will give it that

 

So, in my specific case I would not recommend a sound card due to the noise(although I personally don't mind it, but many others do). I do have to say though, this is the first PC that I have built with the SB Z that has caused me this much interference(and I've built many machines with this card), so I would say as long as you aren't doing a “compact build” you will be fine(or really, just using the top PCI-e x1 slot, since that's whats causing the problem). With your PC, you shouldn't get interference since you are using a good PSU and have a spacious setup, so interference shouldn't be an issue.

 

When I was testing this I wasn't using the O2, since those have only caused me problems with GSM interference. I was mostly stating that external DAC's aren't perfect, since most people on this forum will lead you to believe that they are perfect and in interference is never an issue(which its not). I use a soundcard in this system for 2 reasons: 1 Lazyness and 2: Toslink. Sometimes I get lazy and don't plug my headphones into my sound system, so I just use the analog outputs on the card instead. The main reason for this card is the toslink, which connects my computer to my sound system, and the toslink input is used for connecting another PC so that I can have 2 PC's on the same sound channel(this PC just passes the audio through, pretty neat). That's about it though, other than the cool looks there really isn't much wrong with the onboard audio, just that it lacks a toslink input and crashes some games. I got the O2 DACs for an old PC that had interference, but when the PSU failed in that machine I discovered what was causing the interference, lol.

 

The USB noise that you hear from your mouse is one thing that has driven me insane with some of my PC's lol, but like above its not an issue with the dedicated sound card. This sound is fairly common with MSI boards, they still to this day haven't figured it out(I mean, even Gigabyte and Biostar did lol), but its due to them designing the PCB layout in a less-than-optimal way.  And the static “hiss” sound is pretty typical for onboard audio, just no comment on this lol(actually no, same thing just lack of care from designers and manufactures), but the good news is that this isn't a problem with the SB Z lol.

 

My Current system is the one with the LED fans, orange ram, and the slightly tidy-er cables, while the old system is the last picture(so ugly, but I loved it). They are using the same case, just I switches out all of the internals and made some modifications to the case(like removing the stock HDD cage). The old system sisn't have interference problems, but the new one does(and the even older one didn't), so that's why its a mystery for me(although I have basically narrowed down the problem).

 

I think I covered everything, if not just point it out to me lol. Like I said above, I'm away from home again, but I should be getting in late this Tuesday, so I can start doing science then . Most of the things  I'm going to do seem fairly easy, so I should be able to fit them in my current schedule, but I won't have a job after next week so I will have plenty of time then . As always, if anybody has any questions, concerns, or suggestions just tell me. (and again, apologies for the late reply)

 

Edit: The mods will have to wait about a week, sorry.