Why are we lacking computer programmers?

[Akolyte]

I think its because allot of people do it has a hobby and not really interested in it as a Job, if you are one of them that is.  Great.  But, there are allot of people I know who are coding masters and prefer staying under the radar, getting a nice little job and coding programs as a hobby.

 

And I would tend to agree with them, I can code Ruby, Python and Javascript but I would hate to code for a living.  I would love being a Sysadmin on the other hand where coding is secondary but still plays a big part, mainly in setting up servers, understanding applications and diagnosing problems. 

 

But, I feel the reason coders are getting rarer is because of the fact there is so many options and it gets way over the head.  Not only that but there is too much pressure. 

[redspart]

Before I start I am pursing a computer science degree.

 

Now, back to the question on hand; programming is uncommon because younger kids are taught to memorize, not learn, explore, or even take risks. Take a step back and look at our education system ( US ). At least where I came from it was: memorize these definitions, memorize the spelling, or memorize the parts of a frog...etc. We, as children, are not asked to question the "why, how, and is there a better way?" on fundamental core questions. So it results in a mass that doesn't want a challenge, that would rather let someone else do it for them. They just want the easy money, where easy work == lots of money. Its almost like the education system is creating a "lazy generation". 

 

Programming can be high computational mathematics and logic depending on what you are trying to accomplish. Then what does this require? Thinking, putting in effort, and time to reach a desired outcome. When children see the work that is required to be put it the desire is nullified almost immediately for most. Where there is a huge lack of desire to change something in most highschoolers/children. If something is already done, why would I fix it? This can be tied back to our education system for not encouraging students to challenge something and make it better. I mean look at most phone APPs, if there is a good game, why try to make your own? 

 

Now students who decide to delve into the programming world at a young age hit a wall of where to start. The question should start off as, what do I want to do? or What do I want to fix? But most students are not being challenged ( I keep coming back to that ). The programming community is TERRIBLE at giving advice. People start telling newcomers to use X language because it is better than Y and you will learn more. I beg to differ what does he/she want to do! Yeah every language has its ups/downs but it all varies. I hear arguments in the lab for things like use ASP.NET not Django its better, then when asked why their response is along the lines of " Industry standards ".

 

Overall, it all comes back to one main thing the lacking education system. If the education system would embrace teaching rather than memorization we would have more students that want a challenge. Challenge ideals at an attempt to make things better for themselves or society. ( Like is there a better protocol than TCP? Than UDP? Can we make one? Lets try! )

 

Please note this is my opinion that I have inferred from past experiences. 

[Stuff_]

growth of the market isnt out pacing the degree types offered, however it is outpacing those graduating with degrees relevant. and that is the big problem. we dont need ten more types of degrees in computing. but we sure could use ten more graduates with degrees in computing. as for not being desired, if it requires younger students to think even slightly then they dont want to do it. heaven forbid they have to actually look something up online and the first source not be wikipedia

You took exactly what I said, and reiterated it; and made it seem like I said something different. Please don't do that.

[Stuff_]

Before I start I am pursing a computer science degree.

 

Now, back to the question on hand; programming is uncommon because younger kids are taught to memorize, not learn, explore, or even take risks. Take a step back and look at our education system ( US ). At least where I came from it was: memorize these definitions, memorize the spelling, or memorize the parts of a frog...etc. We, as children, are not asked to question the "why, how, and is there a better way?" on fundamental core questions. So it results in a mass that doesn't want a challenge, that would rather let someone else do it for them. They just want the easy money, where easy work == lots of money. Its almost like the education system is creating a "lazy generation". 

 

Programming can be high computational mathematics and logic depending on what you are trying to accomplish. Then what does this require? Thinking, putting in effort, and time to reach a desired outcome. When children see the work that is required to be put it the desire is nullified almost immediately for most. Where there is a huge lack of desire to change something in most highschoolers/children. If something is already done, why would I fix it? This can be tied back to our education system for not encouraging students to challenge something and make it better. I mean look at most phone APPs, if there is a good game, why try to make your own? 

 

Now students who decide to delve into the programming world at a young age hit a wall of where to start. The question should start off as, what do I want to do? or What do I want to fix? But most students are not being challenged ( I keep coming back to that ). The programming community is TERRIBLE at giving advice. People start telling newcomers to use X language because it is better than Y and you will learn more. I beg to differ what does he/she want to do! Yeah every language has its ups/downs but it all varies. I hear arguments in the lab for things like use ASP.NET not Django its better, then when asked why their response is along the lines of " Industry standards ".

 

Overall, it all comes back to one main thing the lacking education system. If the education system would embrace teaching rather than memorization we would have more students that want a challenge. Challenge ideals at an attempt to make things better for themselves or society. ( Like is there a better protocol than TCP? Than UDP? Can we make one? Lets try! )

 

Please note this is my opinion that I have inferred from past experiences. 

 

 

Valid points. 

 

I just think it's simply less desired. 

Like I said earlier, I work with around 100 highschool/college students, and not a single one is perusing Computer Science, or even wants to (besides myself).

 

Most of them just say "I don't know anything about computers" etc. Every degree is like that. You LEARN it, you don't really already know it. 

 

But like I said, it's simply less desired, and it's definitely is difficult. 

[rockking1379]

You took exactly what I said, and reiterated it; and made it seem like I said something different. Please don't do that.

what you had said was the tech market was out pacing growth of degrees associated with programming. that to me says that the tech market is outpacing the types of degrees we are offering. meaning there is an explosive growth in operating system engineers but we haven't made a degree for being one. what i was saying is that we don't need to grow the number of degree types but the number of graduates with the degree types already offered. sorry if i offended you by interpreting your words differently than you intended. please do accept my apologies

 

-snip-

we must of gone to the same school system because it was that same style. here is a list of words, memorize them for a test on friday. next week comes around, rinse and repeat.

[Stuff_]

I simply meant the completion rate of degrees associated with programming or software engineering. 

[Art Vandelay]

I would say programming is more of a logical reasoning exercise then mathematical. To be honest I didn't do too hot in mathematics but excelled at computational logic. I would say the ability to break down complex tasks into code segments is more important... and yes this takes alot of time and effort, even for seemingly small programs

Mathematical reasoning to some degree is the same kind of thing as the logic required for programming. It's the ability to break down a complex problem into smaller problems that have an easy solution. In math that would be something like a polynomial integration, while in programming that would be instructions or library calls.

 

That being said, I'm much better at programming than math. The concepts in programming are fairly simple, so it's mostly limited to how good you are at applying them, whereas mathematics is more focused on being able to understand very complex and often unintuitive ideas. I'm not sure what the programming equivalent of waves propagating into imaginary space would be, in terms of ease of comprehension...

 

 

This isn't a good thing to use as a source, but here is a blog about not being able to use computers http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/

Some of these stories remind me of the conversations I've had with people in the tech service at my highschool. I'm not even sure how you can get a job like that if you don't understand how to use a computer.

 

 

I simply meant the completion rate of degrees associated with programming or software engineering. 

Are any of them pursuing software development without a degree? Spending 4 years on mostly unrelated things seems like a bit of a waste... then again, I've only discovered that after 2 years in a computer engineering program.

[KRSogaard]

As i see it are there 3 factors to the developer shortages.

 

1: All areas of life todays, requires some kind of software or hardware, therefore we need people to develop that, thus the high demand of developers. 

2: There are not many really good developers, there are however a lot of poor to common skilled developers.

3: Developers tend to be centered in regions, such as SF, Seattle, Copenhagen, Singapore just to mention a few, as this is where all the high paying jobs are, companies outside of theise regions will therefore have a harder time finding good developers.

[EIijah]

I'm now at Uni and we're only just starting python, I think the main reason is that it's hard as balls although now it's starting to be taught in highschool. Before I left highschool I was talking to my computers teacher and he said that the standard is being raised every year so that basically by the time you hit Uni you will NEED good programming knowledge to make it in a course.

[KRSogaard]

I'm now at Uni and we're only just starting python, I think the main reason is that it's hard as balls although now it's starting to be taught in highschool. Before I left highschool I was talking to my computers teacher and he said that the standard is being raised every year so that basically by the time you hit Uni you will NEED good programming knowledge to make it in a course.

 

Hmm i do not think that is true, for me the level at school was extremely low, and that is from on the the best engineering universities in Europe. Many of the students had never done any development before they arrive, and most of them did no development or projects in their free time. Most of what makes me extra attractive for companies, have i learned by myself by having an interest in design pattern, system architecture and such.

[EIijah]

Hmm i do not think that is true, for me the level at school was extremely low, and that is from on the the best engineering universities in Europe. Many of the students had never done any development before they arrive, and most of them did no development or projects in their free time. Most of what makes me extra attractive for companies, have i learned by myself by having an interest in design pattern, system architecture and such.

I'm not talking about currently but this is the future plan, at least in new zealand it is, current uni courses for IT start at zero knowledge but are trying to push IT to be taught properly in highschool so that this is no longer the case.

[WiiManic]

I'm not talking about currently but this is the future plan, at least in new zealand it is, current uni courses for IT start at zero knowledge but are trying to push IT to be taught properly in highschool so that this is no longer the case.

Yeah, its probably a difference between countries.

 

I'm in the UK and it looks like they are adding more modules on to make it easier for new people.

The programming starts from step 1 already, and you start python the week the course starts. And most other stuff is from the very beginning, only thing that isn't is maths, they assume the knowledge from the grade you got at A-level.

 

But there is now talk of adding further modules to get hands on experience with Linux. I was just given it and we started using it. Okay if like me you'd used it loads before, but others hadn't. 

 

And on the lack of programmers, I do think its starting to come to an end. My year has 50 Comp Sci + IT. Year below me has 80. Next is looking to have atleast 100. Most of the years infront of me have about the same number (50ish), but it does look like its starting to gain interest. Was talking with old lecturer about how there used to be 300+ in intro to programming and stuff, so it just lost popularity, and is now gaining it again.

[asquirrel]

1. Isolation: As far as hobbies go, programming is, at its core, a solo activity. It's very difficult to carry on a conversation and program, unlike, say...jogging, or playing golf, or trying out craft beers. So the first problem is you are isolated from others while programming, and any interactions you have during programming will probably be minimal/theoretical.
2. Social Reliability: The people who make the best programmers think like a computer, or at least understand how a computer thinks. Invariably these people love computers because computers don't have moods, or bad days. Computers don't say one thing and mean another. Computers are never late, or early, or forgetful. Humans are all of these things, and the more 'into' computers one gets, the less tolerant of human inefficiencies that person typically becomes.
3. Education sucks: Despite having many programmers, most good programmers are not good teachers, and most good teachers can't understand programming. There's a shocking lack of fusion between understanding enough programming/computer architecture to explain the core ideas behind programming and why those ideas work.

   Case in point: It took me until I was a junior in college, that is to say, 6 semesters of classes, before they finally taught us how a CPU actually executes the instructions I programmed. It wasn't until my second semester at college that they taught us C ('Java is easier!'...please) and in doing so explained how computer virtual memory worked, what a stack and heap were, what a pointer was, etc.

   To teach programming, you need to start with the components of a computer: "Here's the CPU, here's the stack, here's the heap ('the heap is made of virtual memory, which is RAM and Swap combined'), and here is, in MIPS assembly, how 'Hello World' executes based on this C code." That simple explanation would take a day, but you'd visit each subject in depth over a school semester and explain more of the subtlety behind each topic. So few teachers even think to explain the trunk of the tree before they talk about the leaves and branches that most people get turned off because they don't understand it. You have to start with the interface everyone knows: mouse, keyboard, case, and go from there.

4. Pay sucks: I've never actually worked at a company that treated its programmers well. "Oh, you've got 15 years of experience? Here's $50K/year and we expect you to work 60 hour weeks standard, and weekends whenever your manager commits to an unrealistic timeline." Part of that is having the balls to say 'no, I'm good at what I do, I'll work 40 and take the $50K, and my weekends are my own.', but you have to actually be really good to be able to do that. There *are* high paying programming jobs, but the vast majority pay like crap and work you to the bone.

   $50K sounds like a lot, and it is a good living in the midwest or other unpopulated areas. But near Chicago, Boston, most places in Cali...all the places you're likely to find programming jobs...$50K is a crap wage that means you're renting college-student level apartments. Either that, or you end up living in debt and hoping you don't get fired, which leads to the aforementioned 'having the balls...' problem where you work 60 hour weeks because your employer knows your mortgage won't allow you to leave for another company/job market.

5. Lack of pride: By and large, industry 'programming' is better described as 'throw shit at a wall until it sticks, wrap the wall in duct tape and ship it!' Places like NASA, where the code needs to be perfect rather than meet a deadline, are rare. Thus anyone with a personality that gets joy from doing something well get poo-ed upon because they will never have the time to do something the right way, they will only ever have the time to write some shoestring spaghetti code to make it work before it's thrown out the door and they are onto the next project.

Those are just off the top of my head. Some personalities will love the pressures that come with programming for enterprise/corporate environments, but a lot of these things turn vast swaths of people off to it. I'd say education and pay are probably the two biggest problems. The social issues are a problem, but come after education and pay because...normally the person was ok with being alone years before they decided to try programming.

 

Another 'problem' is that employers badly want to believe 'a programmer is a programmer' for pay reasons, but don't want to accept that...writing applications in Java for Websphere is one type of programming, and writing the OS for a cellphone, or a video game, or anything which basically needs some C code to function, is a very different type of programming. The vast majority of the jobs for programming are 'web development' where you are writing programs for the backends of websites, or writing code that runs on the page itself. When people think about programming jobs they typically envision programming computer games, or software for mainframes/servers. The fact of the matter is...very few jobs in the latter category exist. Programming has changed, and it's very, very disheartening to people who want to program close to the hardware.

[EIijah]

 

 

1. Social Reliability: The people who make the best programmers think like a computer, or at least understand how a computer thinks. Invariably these people love computers because computers don't have moods, or bad days. Computers don't say one thing and mean another. Computers are never late, or early, or forgetful. Humans are all of these things, and the more 'into' computers one gets, the less tolerant of human inefficiencies that person typically becomes.

This is the best reason for me.

[KRSogaard]

 

1. Isolation: As far as hobbies go, programming is, at its core, a solo activity. It's very difficult to carry on a conversation and program, unlike, say...jogging, or playing golf, or trying out craft beers. So the first problem is you are isolated from others while programming, and any interactions you have during programming will probably be minimal/theoretical.
2. Social Reliability: The people who make the best programmers think like a computer, or at least understand how a computer thinks. Invariably these people love computers because computers don't have moods, or bad days. Computers don't say one thing and mean another. Computers are never late, or early, or forgetful. Humans are all of these things, and the more 'into' computers one gets, the less tolerant of human inefficiencies that person typically becomes.
3. Education sucks: Despite having many programmers, most good programmers are not good teachers, and most good teachers can't understand programming. There's a shocking lack of fusion between understanding enough programming/computer architecture to explain the core ideas behind programming and why those ideas work.

   Case in point: It took me until I was a junior in college, that is to say, 6 semesters of classes, before they finally taught us how a CPU actually executes the instructions I programmed. It wasn't until my second semester at college that they taught us C ('Java is easier!'...please) and in doing so explained how computer virtual memory worked, what a stack and heap were, what a pointer was, etc.

   To teach programming, you need to start with the components of a computer: "Here's the CPU, here's the stack, here's the heap ('the heap is made of virtual memory, which is RAM and Swap combined'), and here is, in MIPS assembly, how 'Hello World' executes based on this C code." That simple explanation would take a day, but you'd visit each subject in depth over a school semester and explain more of the subtlety behind each topic. So few teachers even think to explain the trunk of the tree before they talk about the leaves and branches that most people get turned off because they don't understand it. You have to start with the interface everyone knows: mouse, keyboard, case, and go from there.

4. Pay sucks: I've never actually worked at a company that treated its programmers well. "Oh, you've got 15 years of experience? Here's $50K/year and we expect you to work 60 hour weeks standard, and weekends whenever your manager commits to an unrealistic timeline." Part of that is having the balls to say 'no, I'm good at what I do, I'll work 40 and take the $50K, and my weekends are my own.', but you have to actually be really good to be able to do that. There *are* high paying programming jobs, but the vast majority pay like crap and work you to the bone.

   $50K sounds like a lot, and it is a good living in the midwest or other unpopulated areas. But near Chicago, Boston, most places in Cali...all the places you're likely to find programming jobs...$50K is a crap wage that means you're renting college-student level apartments. Either that, or you end up living in debt and hoping you don't get fired, which leads to the aforementioned 'having the balls...' problem where you work 60 hour weeks because your employer knows your mortgage won't allow you to leave for another company/job market.

5. Lack of pride: By and large, industry 'programming' is better described as 'throw shit at a wall until it sticks, wrap the wall in duct tape and ship it!' Places like NASA, where the code needs to be perfect rather than meet a deadline, are rare. Thus anyone with a personality that gets joy from doing something well get poo-ed upon because they will never have the time to do something the right way, they will only ever have the time to write some shoestring spaghetti code to make it work before it's thrown out the door and they are onto the next project.

Those are just off the top of my head. Some personalities will love the pressures that come with programming for enterprise/corporate environments, but a lot of these things turn vast swaths of people off to it. I'd say education and pay are probably the two biggest problems. The social issues are a problem, but come after education and pay because...normally the person was ok with being alone years before they decided to try programming.

 

Another 'problem' is that employers badly want to believe 'a programmer is a programmer' for pay reasons, but don't want to accept that...writing applications in Java for Websphere is one type of programming, and writing the OS for a cellphone, or a video game, or anything which basically needs some C code to function, is a very different type of programming. The vast majority of the jobs for programming are 'web development' where you are writing programs for the backends of websites, or writing code that runs on the page itself. When people think about programming jobs they typically envision programming computer games, or software for mainframes/servers. The fact of the matter is...very few jobs in the latter category exist. Programming has changed, and it's very, very disheartening to people who want to program close to the hardware.

 

 

Can only agree with nr. 2, I always tell people that programming is not hard, it is thinking the right way that takes practice.

3: I find the level of actual programming classes to be very low, in my engineering school did they only teach us the absolute basic, and then expect us to learn the rest our self. This was perfect for a guy like me who like to develop in my free time. But many people do not do any more coding, beside the absolutely minimum, it will therefor become harder and harder for them to follow the courses. But do not fear, the school have a solution for that!!!! Group Work!! Less exercises for the teachers. But at the cost of them who can code, because they will now have to drag 2-6 people though the course, because group work is mandatory. 

When it comes to basic knowledge such as data structures and algorithms (sorting and such) are there almost no new students who have any experience with this. Many of my fellow students have told me that they do not want to spend time on it, because they will never need to use it. Most students and even working developers don't know the difference between an array and a array list, it is shocking.

4: Not sure about this? where is the numbers coming from? My understanding of the US is that most Software Engineering jobs start at 60k, and jobs at the Big 5 start at 100k, with a minimum of 10% increase the first 2 years.

5: Don't agree with this, but i think it depends on where you work. What i would agree with is in social encounters that working within IT is still kind of tabu sadly. 

 

To your last quote, would i say that a good programmer can change stack and learn it within a relative small time frame, and most companies understand that it will take time to switch stack. What i see a problem with is people seeing programmers as programmers only, not thinking that we have any other skills then writing code. I had a lot of problems with my friends who are business students during my university time, when they wanted to do a project together with me. Thinking that because i am a software engineer that i had no understanding of business and management, where i in reality have had more business management training then them and a fair about of business and economics training. But no matter what i did or said what i just the dumb programmer who could code and only code.

[asquirrel]

3: ... Group Work!! ... drag 2-6 people though the course, because group work is mandatory. 

When it comes to basic knowledge such as data structures and algorithms (sorting and such) are there almost no new students who have any experience with this. Many of my fellow students have told me that they do not want to spend time on it, because they will never need to use it. Most students and even working developers don't know the difference between an array and a array list, it is shocking.

 

This is a very valid expansion of my point. Group work has its place, but no group should ever be graded in such a way that each member gets the same grade. If you want to do group work, then you should have individual GIT/SVN accounts for each member. If they coded, then they checked something in. If they didn't, then it's obvious and they fail. If they get the leader's code and upload it, that's an academic integrity issue and they should be expelled. If the group leader gives them code...the group leader is a moron and should be expelled for a lack of academic integrity. Giving code, in this context, would mean writing everything and handing it over with no explanation. Explaining every single line they write and telling them exactly what to write is very different and ok in my book; ham-fisted, but ok.

 

As for basic algorithms, I have to agree with you there. We had courses specifically dedicated to algorithm performance analysis and data structure design. Data structures never made sense to me (the teacher was too theoretical, no practical examples ever given) until I 'cheated' and looked at the source code for a java binary tree online. Suddenly Linked Lists, Trees, C++ Templates...it all made sense. I had to get that practical example before all the theory clicked into place.

 

Even among experienced programmers the number who don't know that insertion sort is faster than quicksort/merge sort when your array is < 100,000-ish elements is shocking to me. I got a rather crap grade in Algorithms, but I learned a lot. Why? Partly because I'm bad at math beyond calculus (proofs are evil!) and partly because I never agreed with 'Oh, well the big-O is n(log n), you just throw away the constant at the front! Well, no. The constant at the front on quicksort is something like 5,000, that constant matters! It's huge! It doesn't matter for problems above a certain size, but saying it doesn't matter and never will is a failure to teach. The constant *does* matter and knowing the range of values over which it matters is important.

 

It's like...the tires on a car. You can get the tire rated for 90,000 miles or the tire rated for 30,000 miles. Both fit on the rim, both do tire things, both are safe, but you will always stick to the road better with the 30,000 mile tire than the 90,000 mile tire (assuming both tires are of equivalent quality) because the 30,000 mile tire is a softer compound and so it can react to things like deceleration, bending (cornering/uneven terrain), and heat much better than the 90,000 mile tire can. Do you need to know there's a difference? No. Does knowing the differences and what they mean help you make better decisions? Absolutely!

 

4: Not sure about this? where is the numbers coming from? My understanding of the US is that most Software Engineering jobs start at 60k, and jobs at the Big 5 start at 100k, with a minimum of 10% increase the first 2 years.

I don't count the 'big 5' because such a tiny slice of programmers will ever work for them. If you're smart enough to work for the big 5, then you're smart enough to make *most* of the things on my list not matter. As for where I got the numbers...life. I've applied on a few jobs in my day and had various stacks of cash waved in my face. Most of the programming jobs were for web-style development though, and that's why the wage was so low. If you get into programming not web-interactive applications the pay scale does go up, but as I said, those jobs are increasingly rare.

 

To your last quote, would i say that a good programmer can change stack and learn it within a relative small time frame, and most companies understand that it will take time to switch stack. What i see a problem with is people seeing programmers as programmers only, not thinking that we have any other skills then writing code. I had a lot of problems with my friends who are business students during my university time, when they wanted to do a project together with me. Thinking that because i am a software engineer that i had no understanding of business and management, where i in reality have had more business management training then them and a fair about of business and economics training. But no matter what i did or said what i just the dumb programmer who could code and only code.

My last point wasn't that a programmer couldn't change stacks, it was that not everyone finds both types of programming fun (I hate web development). If you get an ~adjective~ corporation, they'll try to pay you the web developer's pay range to do application development because they are greedy and they know there's some sod out there who will take it so he can eat. That was my point. (Not mad, just explaining. Intonation is...difficult through text.)

[SteveGrabowski0]

There are HUGE job shortages when it comes to programming, although conditions are improving, I'm more interested into why kid's don't get into it earlier.

 

That sounds like BS. It's an excuse lots of American companies make to bring over foreign workers that they can pay like dogs.

[YellowDragon]

There are HUGE job shortages when it comes to programming, although conditions are improving, I'm more interested into why kid's don't get into it earlier.

Where did  you hear this from? That is the biggest bunch of BS i have ever heard, look  at the projections  for any programmer,  they  are practically off the charts. There are more  programming job then  there are people to fill them. If  you have a track record for sucess and personal projects  with a little spice in professional development then companies practically throw themselves at your feet. 

 

I  cant  speak for everyone but I have a request for  an interview with a recruiter in my email practically everyday or through  some form of  socal media. Oh and if you have some skill  in negotiation and communication  and  can  back it up with experience and confidence you pretty much have a permit to write your own paychecks. 

 

Most programmers dont understand  how important HUMAN communication is, connections and confidence  get you many places even if you are unskilled  ( look at politicans), if  you do  have skill  then you might as well be Tony Stark  in the eyes of  many.

[rockking1379]

My last point wasn't that a programmer couldn't change stacks, it was that not everyone finds both types of programming fun (I hate web development). If you get an ~adjective~ corporation, they'll try to pay you the web developer's pay range to do application development because they are greedy and they know there's some sod out there who will take it so he can eat. That was my point. (Not mad, just explaining. Intonation is...difficult through text.)

 

i will join you on the web development hate train

[asquirrel]

@rockking1379

[KRSogaard]

This is a very valid expansion of my point. Group work has its place, but no group should ever be graded in such a way that each member gets the same grade. If you want to do group work, then you should have individual GIT/SVN accounts for each member. If they coded, then they checked something in. If they didn't, then it's obvious and they fail. If they get the leader's code and upload it, that's an academic integrity issue and they should be expelled. If the group leader gives them code...the group leader is a moron and should be expelled for a lack of academic integrity. Giving code, in this context, would mean writing everything and handing it over with no explanation. Explaining every single line they write and telling them exactly what to write is very different and ok in my book; ham-fisted, but ok.

I completely agree with this, but you are forgetting one thing. The schools are rated today on the students average grade, so they do not care that one person made mode then the other, they will often ignore it, as it means less work for them in the end. When they have a group of 5 do they efficiently cut their work load to 1/5 of what it would have been, did the students not work in groups. In all of the groups i have been in have all students gotten the same grade for every hand-in, not matter how much of the actual work they have done, where it also showed from the report.

 

I don't count the 'big 5' because such a tiny slice of programmers will ever work for them. If you're smart enough to work for the big 5, then you're smart enough to make *most* of the things on my list not matter. As for where I got the numbers...life. I've applied on a few jobs in my day and had various stacks of cash waved in my face. Most of the programming jobs were for web-style development though, and that's why the wage was so low. If you get into programming not web-interactive applications the pay scale does go up, but as I said, those jobs are increasingly rare.

Web development do not pay less then any other IT job, however many of the Web Dev jobs are at start up companies and they tend to pay less. Any Web Dev job at bigger companies should pay the same as desktop developer.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm now at Uni and we're only just starting python, I think the main reason is that it's hard as balls although now it's starting to be taught in highschool. Before I left highschool I was talking to my computers teacher and he said that the standard is being raised every year so that basically by the time you hit Uni you will NEED good programming knowledge to make it in a course.

That's definitely not true, at least for the universities I've heard about. My first year programming course was really easy. People I've asked about CS programs tell me they usually learn programming from the basics, using languages like Scheme and Racket.

[EIijah]

That's definitely not true, at least for the universities I've heard about. My first year programming course was really easy. People I've asked about CS programs tell me they usually learn programming from the basics, using languages like Scheme and Racket.

I'm not talking about current, but according to my old highschool teacher it will become the case.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not talking about current, but according to my old highschool teacher it will become the case.

Well, look how long they've been teaching physics in highschool and you still have to relearn it in university, since highschools are terrible at teaching it.

 

Highschools are terrible at teaching people anything, to the point where you really couldn't just give people a data structures and algorithms course in first term. You'd still need to give an introductory programming course.

[Giddyguy]

Lol i grew up in the SF Bay area (Silicon Valley) so its the opposite here. By the time kids get to high school they're already proficient at programming. I always felt like i was falling behind. But now im in college and majoring in Computer Engineering so think im catching up!