Are soundcards worth it?

[ShearMe]

I wish we had a 15-page post to link to every time this question was asked, but I just don't feel like being the one to write it.

[SSL]

I wish we had a 15-page post to link to every time this question was asked, but I just don't feel like being the one to write it.

 

Me too, after all every possible topic needs to be covered by a 15-page post complete with MLA-formatted citations.

[xtroria]

Me too, after all every possible topic needs to be covered by a 15-page post complete with MLA-formatted citations.

 

we should really put ask the mods to put stickies about like "do you need amp" "headphone buyers guide" and shit, it's getting out of hand

[ShearMe]

we should really put ask the mods to put stickies about like "do you need amp" "headphone buyers guide" and shit, it's getting out of hand

 

It's already in the FAQ that people don't read. Why bother with more stickies that people wont read?

[SSL]

It's already in the FAQ that people don't read. Why bother with more stickies that people wont read?

 

To be fair, the FAQ is long-winded and overly technical in at times. It couldn't hurt to have a couple stickies that hit the most commonly asked two or three questions.

[ShearMe]

To be fair, the FAQ is long-winded and overly technical in at times. It couldn't hurt to have a couple stickies that hit the most commonly asked two or three questions.

 

To be fair, no one's directly asked for something to be sticky'd aside from the occasional "hurr durr this should be sticky'd" that a mod will never see.

[SSL]

To be fair, no one's directly asked for something to be sticky'd aside from the occasional "hurr durr this should be sticky'd" that a mod will never see.

 

To be fair, the mods wouldn't give a fuck if they did see it.

[alicskysareblue]

You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. If you know what's out there and the pros and cons and you still want a sound card for some reason, then that's fine. More often than not, that's not the case.

trust me I dont by something without being informed kind of a part of the fact that I am going into I.T plus I dont like wasting money.

 

sound cards can be a great purchase just like dac + amps, the main issue from what I find is poor driver support, something that is absolutly unacceptable considering how pricey these things can get, its probably the main reason why most people prefer dacs and amps, no need for driver  BS, but they still have a place not everyone wants external hardware cluttering up there desk.

 

Youre going to hate this... But: 

 

And no Im not spamming, just as you arent with a comment that says "spam much"

I think we have all seen that video, but one video from an expert is not the end all be all in truth, he has a point, but even linus has pointed out that there are usage scenarios for sound card even if  dacs and amps are objectivly better.

 

so basically like everything it is up to the buyer, not you or I to make that decision. we can argue all we want about why it is better to get a dac, or a unlocked processor etc etc, but it is neither are decision or are right to insult someone for making the choice they made.

[creatip123]

trust me I dont by something without being informed kind of a part of the fact that I am going into I.T plus I dont like wasting money.

 

sound cards can be a great purchase just like dac + amps, the main issue from what I find is poor driver support, something that is absolutly unacceptable considering how pricey these things can get, its probably the main reason why most people prefer dacs and amps, no need for driver  BS, but they still have a place not everyone wants external hardware cluttering up there desk.

 

Well, I like to see things as how they are, no more, no less. Soundcards are soundcards, that's that. I'd say the problem lies not in the soundcard itself, but in their competitors, which is onboard and external dac/amp. Onboard is developing and getting better and better. External dac/amps are getting cheaper and cheaper. What used to be 'rich boys toys' is now becoming more widely obtainable. 

 

The main advantage a soundcard have (providing there's nothing wrong with the existing onboard) now, is the exclusive virtual surround algorithm, like SBX, CMSS, etc. It's kinda like when BBM was exclusive to blackberry devices. Once it's available cross platform, the device would die. 

 

Also about external hardware cluttering the desk, well, something like E10 and E10k is about 1.5x the size of a regular zippo lighter (E10 is 3.1 x 1.9 inches). Even if there's no place on the desk for something that small, it's easily modded to stick under the table. Just need some regular velcro. 

[alicskysareblue]

Well, I like to see things as how they are, no more, no less. Soundcards are soundcards, that's that. I'd say the problem lies not in the soundcard itself, but in their competitors, which is onboard and external dac/amp. Onboard is developing and getting better and better. External dac/amps are getting cheaper and cheaper. What used to be 'rich boys toys' is now becoming more widely obtainable. 

 

The main advantage a soundcard have (providing there's nothing wrong with the existing onboard) now, is the exclusive virtual surround algorithm, like SBX, CMSS, etc. It's kinda like when BBM was exclusive to blackberry devices. Once it's available cross platform, the device would die. 

 

Also about external hardware cluttering the desk, well, something like E10 and E10k is about 1.5x the size of a regular zippo lighter (E10 is 3.1 x 1.9 inches). Even if there's no place on the desk for something that small, it's easily modded to stick under the table. Just need some regular hryvelcro. 

hey good point I'm not trying to sound like an expert...I am far from it, I just hate blind fanboyisam based on nothing but a single video or what other people say without actually makeing an informed decison.

 

that said I didnt realize how small a e10 is maybe a future addition ...who knows

[creatip123]

hey good point I'm not trying to sound like an expert...I am far from it, I just hate blind fanboyisam based on nothing but a single video or what other people say without actually makeing an informed decison.

 

that said I didnt realize how small a e10 is maybe a future addition ...who knows

 

Yea, that video is alright, but it's been quoted so many times, it's kinda bitter taste now. Like when you drink too much milkshake, it started to taste funny. 

 

E10 is small, and there are others that are as small or even smaller than that. Of course there are lot others that are bigger tho.

 

[elliott35]

hey good point I'm not trying to sound like an expert...I am far from it, I just hate blind fanboyisam based on nothing but a single video or what other people say without actually makeing an informed decison.

 

that said I didnt realize how small a e10 is maybe a future addition ...who knows

I'm not completely sure that you actually comprehended anything that people are saying. And blind fanboyism? Where do you gather that anyone is being a blind fanboy? 

[alicskysareblue]

I'm not completely sure that you actually comprehended anything that people are saying. And blind fanboyism? Where do you gather that anyone is being a blind fanboy? 

now it is you that does not understand what I mean.

a better term would be band wagoning, meaning people are  jumping onto a view because it is a popular opinion, an example is the tek syndacite video, yes it is very informative but people use it as if it is an end all be all to the actual arguement, there are also people who only formed there opinion becuase it is the populer view, not because they actually have an understanding of the technology, they then proceed to say that "X" is the only  way to go and Y and Z are wrong. now not everyone does that but I sure do see that a lot LTT (and not just with audio solutions)

 

that is what I meant by "blind fanboyisam" now granted there have been a lot of people who have posted that know waaaaaayyyy more about audio solution then I do (again I dont claim to an expert just someone with an informed opinion) but then there were other people here who just said that   soundcards suck without giving a reasion why.

[SSL]

but then there were other people here who just said that   soundcards suck without giving a reasion why.

 

Quit possibly because the reason has already been explained ad nausueum.

[elliott35]

 

now it is you that does not understand what I mean. 

a better term would be band wagoning, meaning people are  jumping onto a view because it is a popular opinion, an example is the tek syndacite video, yes it is very informative but people use it as if it is an end all be all to the actual arguement, there are also people who only formed there opinion becuase it is the populer view, not because they actually have an understanding of the technology, they then proceed to say that "X" is the only  way to go and Y and Z are wrong. now not everyone does that but I sure do see that a lot LTT (and not just with audio solutions)

 

that is what I meant by "blind fanboyisam" now granted there have been a lot of people who have posted that know waaaaaayyyy more about audio solution then I do (again I dont claim to an expert just someone with an informed opinion) but then there were other people here who just said that   soundcards suck without giving a reasion why.

I think you need to google the difference between objective and subjective. Its hard to understand your argument with that sentience structure, but In no way am I a fanboy. I admit that I made an unsubstantiated (1 liner) recommendation. And when SSL called me out on it, instead of writing a long drawn out post I linked a video. I own an o2, wa7. a fiio E series mobile amp and an assortment of mobos with onboard sound. I am speaking from experience. There are few to no reasons why someone should buy a pci sound card. Certainly, no reason related to sound quality 

 

 

Either that, or they are deliberately gimping their motherboards in order to move their useless sound cards.

 

 

I think its likely... I have the Gene 6 and only the front audio is amped adequately. 

[pas008]

op asked if good for gaming

 

yes they are, they make your gaming immersive,

 

like creativ has stated in post 59, dont see how you can overlook this from a gaming perspective

 

and that logan and tyler video is shit, its on the right track but its shit

 

ohms only variable for power? I know there is another episode but you just dont state that shit especially with the headphones they hold up,  I can name many high ohm headphones that are easily driven and low ohm ones that must need an amp lots of volume

 

drivers are user error, never had an issue unless I accidently installed over another

 

surround software has nothing to do with algorithms I guess its all just eq settings

 

any gamer will tell you there is a difference between razer, sbx, yahama silent cinema, cmss3d, dolby, etc

 

also dont many front panel noise come from sharing usb ground?

[elliott35]

op asked if good for gaming

 

yes they are, they make your gaming immersive,

 

like creativ has stated in post 59, dont see how you can overlook this from a gaming perspective

 

and that logan and tyler video is shit, its on the right track but its shit

 

ohms only variable for power? I know there is another episode but you just dont state that shit especially with the headphones they hold up,  I can name many high ohm headphones that are easily driven and low ohm ones that must need an amp lots of volume

 

drivers are user error, never had an issue unless I accidently installed over another

 

surround software has nothing to do with algorithms I guess its all just eq settings

 

any gamer will tell you there is a difference between razer, sbx, yahama silent cinema, cmss3d, dolby, etc

 

also dont many front panel noise come from sharing usb ground?

I have no idea what you are saying. I'm pretty sure you just won the internet though! 

[BoredErica]

op asked if good for gaming

 

yes they are, they make your gaming immersive,

 

like creativ has stated in post 59, dont see how you can overlook this from a gaming perspective

 

and that logan and tyler video is shit, its on the right track but its shit

 

ohms only variable for power? I know there is another episode but you just dont state that shit especially with the headphones they hold up,  I can name many high ohm headphones that are easily driven and low ohm ones that must need an amp lots of volume

 

drivers are user error, never had an issue unless I accidently installed over another

 

surround software has nothing to do with algorithms I guess its all just eq settings

 

any gamer will tell you there is a difference between razer, sbx, yahama silent cinema, cmss3d, dolby, etc

 

also dont many front panel noise come from sharing usb ground?

I agree with some of your ideas.

 

People keep saying how many "ohms" a headphone has. Usually a question formed that way comes from somebody who doesn't know what they should be asking. Impedance is not the only factor in determining the needs of a headphone. I believe Logan believes an aftermarket amp/dac is important for high impedance cans. Like, I see Tyler showing Logan his new mini-portable-amp for him to try out and Logan's like, sure, let's give it a shot to see what it sounds like! Waste of time. Designing a transparent amp/dac like that is pretty damned easy for somebody in Tyler's position. And voila, Logan didn't spot a real difference.

 

I also agree that there can be a major difference between difference sound technologies, like Dolby Headphones vs Razer Surround. I'm not one for exaggeration when it comes to spotting differences, but the difference between those two is like... larger than changing headphones. I had a very negative experience with Dolby Headphones. What I'm not sure about from you is whether these techs are simply just EQs. I mean, I guess? But it's not like, a simple EQ preset. There's gotta be more going on than that.

 

Logan sat there to demonstrate that nobody can differentiate a proper mp3 track vs flac and his testing was totally flawed. It lasted like 60 seconds, too. It's stupid. But at the same time he brings up abx testing, which most Youtubers don't even mention. But still, the GIST of it is STILL correct: The vast majority of people cannot tell a difference. It is more common to have people who "pass" due to improper setups or gaming the test in some way. This is contrary to what most general tech Youtubers would say. The default stance is "I can't hear a difference but people with good (aka expensive) setups can hear a difference probably, but I'm not an audiophile". It pisses me off when I hear shit like that. Logan is one of the few mainstream tech Youtubers that went against that and while the on-video testing is a waste of time, I still think he deserves to earn more credit than he lost for that test.

 

Their talk about tube amps is not very nuanced even by my standards, but it gets the point across: If you're looking for accurate sound, tube amps will molest you.

 

I don't know about driver errors. I personally never had any back when I used a sound card but this is not proof of anything.

 

They talked about sound cards being useless - again, kind of an oversimplification but generally true. Unless there's a very specific surround sound implementation that is available by the sound card only that you know you like above all other implementations and you're willing to buy it just for that alone, sound cards generally make no sense. They also talked about how balanced generally makes no sense and it's basically true. On the other hand, very often neither a sound card nor Logan's favorite dac/amps are necessary, contrary to what Logan thinks. A lot of people don't have the type of disposable income to just drop a few hundred on a dac/amp for the sake of it, and once you buy it you'll feel pressured to hear a difference that may not be there. Most people will be better off saving their money for sound cards/external dac/amps on something else, like a better GPU or a backup solution for your computer files or just to go out and have a nice dinner with their girlfriend or something.

 

There are probably a few more things in the Logan video that are incorrect/very incomplete but end up leaving the viewer with the correct... gist of what to get and what not to get. 

 

In short, I feel Logan's video has multiple good points and multiple bad points. I think it's a mixed bag. In the past, bringing up this point of view basically got me attacked by both sides of the issue... The people who hated Logan's video were out to get me and the people who follow Logan to the ends of the earth also wanted to get me for my criticism. People have sorta cooled down since then though.

[SSL]

What I'm not sure about from you is whether these techs are simply just EQs. I mean, I guess? But it's not like, a simple EQ preset. There's gotta be more going on than that.

 

It's not. There is.

 

http://hajo.me/blog/2014/12/28/how-surround-sound-for-headphones-works/

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_stereophonicsound.php

[YajirobeFromDC]

get a mag/mod 2 from schiit

[Fluffinator]

Souncard is worth in my opinion, if you got some nice speakers, I got a surround sound speaker setup and use the soundcard for my headset and it sounds way better than on board.